95 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

there was an outcome? because frankly it feels like the same excrement just a different day.

talk != action;

Edited by LordNothing, 14 September 2016 - 08:35 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

dervishx5, on 14 September 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

Wargaming, for example, has managed to make a game with more depth than MWO with World of Warships in under a year. A year.

Why? Because they don't try to reinvent the wheel. They don't spend 95% of their resources on inane balance issues. They don't attempt to balance with a sledgehammer, they do it with minor adjustments. They embrace community mods and make them part of the game. They interact with their community on a level far above state-sponsored media: they're open about statistics and problems. They make events a daily part of the game. They know how to manage player numbers so everyone doesn't drop into the same class of vehicle causing wait times to skyrocket.

And why? Because they have experience with games before that one, and because they use common sense. PGI does not have experience with real games prior to this one, they clearly don't think things through (see Buddah's timeline), and their passion for this game is highly questionable. It seems more of a chore to them than a pet project.

So yes, with all the examples of other game companies doing things right, PGI appears to be the one on the Island, refusing to do what works for other companies until they have no other choice. These people have had 4-5 years to earn my respect, and they've slowly lost it.

some of the things you listed need some rethinking, but I'll leave it at that.

[Imperius]

That weird moment you realize when the white knights are now the ones on an Island.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Imperius, on 14 September 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

That weird moment you realize when the white knights are now the ones on an Island.

it's actually the opposite.

stay salty.

Like the OP made a thread to discuss the townhalls and the few and the islanders decided to make this into yet another "Why PGI messed up thread. You know you guys can start threads like that anytime you wan't right? Nobody really wan't to hear about it.

Don't get cheeky. You guys were always on the island. You just got a bit bold recently

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 14 September 2016 - 08:45 PM.

[Hunka Junk]

Before this thread gets locked, I'd like to get my thoughts in here.

FOCUS
The community was invited to provide commentary on how to improve FP. This feedback was provided without qualification, and then several pages into the discussion, it was announced that only buckets and LT were going to be discussed.

I can understand that everything couldn't have been discussed in one meeting, but where and when will the rest of these things be discussed? This needs a transparent answer.


PROGRESS
At much the same time, it seems that the devs were ready to concede that the community hated the LT, and it already seemed to be on its way out. The bucket discussion ended with a whole raft of player ideas being ignored and the the path of least resistance being taken on the development end: to basically solve the bucket problem by reverting things back to a more basic form of play rather than actual development.

PRESENTATION
The roundness of the table suddenly disappeared when it came time to announce the outcomes of the round table. We have a one-hour podcast of people saying "Yes!". Meanwhile, the people who spent 6 hours pre-round table were trying to reconvene and intervene. The overall reaction on the forums has been negative. I applaud and welcome Mr Wolf's challenge to put up a poll.

TIME FRAME
Again, I don't expect this to be done overnight, but the choices that were made are arguably the least intensive possible in terms of development. It shouldn't take forever, and those changes should be reasonable enough to provide a more concrete timetable for implementation.

Another aspect of timing is how disappointing it was to see the round table tacked on to the end of the 90-day road map. It essentially announced that there was no intention of having further round tables any time soon.

REFLECTION OF WHAT THE COMMUNITY COMMUNICATED
There were so many ideas, but very few people spoke in favor of creating one single bucket, and it was a dev who most consistently invoked the term "tug of war".

In retrospect, it seems very much like the decisions, remove LT and merge everything into one bucket, were set before the round table, and the round table was a diplomatic way to have a display of listening to the community and then moving forward with a preconceived plan.

I don't think the solution really demonstrated that the devs were listening. To me, it seems more mea culpa in that they have just admitted that they either cannot or are not willing to develop a more sophisticated mode for FP.

SUMMARY
The round table itself seemed to generate a fair amount of good will and hope. The outcomes, their presentation, and their limited focus have all put a significant damper on those sentiments. Older, more cynical members of the community refused to participate in the whole process because they said they had done so previously only to have their feedback ignored. The results of the round table as of now seem to show them in the right.

Mr Bombadil, are you still out there?

I welcome a response or at least an acknowledgment of the sentiments offered here so far.

And maybe there should be a poll, but I'll leave that to someone else to decide.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

on a scale of 1 to 10

-90 days

[dervishx5]

BLOOD WOLF, on 14 September 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

some of the things you listed need some rethinking, but I'll leave it at that.

Wow what a great discussion.

[Simbacca]

BLOOD WOLF, on 14 September 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

so these threads are just for the bittervets I guess. What are there like 30 of you guys total?

I missed the Founder's period by a month. So, I have been around a while. It has been 2 years since the shackles of IGP were cast off - yet various original problems that were voiced over that time (and before) have not been dealt with. Certain solutions to some problems made no sense - the pop tarting (which is legitimate, but was badly abused due to game mechanics) solution of nerfing jump jets. Stopping the abuse of mounting only a single jump jet (jump acceleration) - fine. But the same solution badly affected mechs which spent the tonnage multiple JJ's as well.

=Quirk System, which has a place but created its own series of problems including balance...especially when combined with the weapon module system (which one can stack). Part of the solution, which would add depth and be a nod to lore would have weapons brands - each brand having its own advantage - whether be it range, reload rate, etc.
=Power creep - this affects a lot of games, and granted it is difficult to deal with. But a number of solutions were proposed years ago to help mitigate this issue. Cone of fire, convergence, and/heat etc.
=Dynamic weapons models. I get it - it saves time, but PGI did not seem to notice that the scaling of these models for various mechs made no sense. Any one remember the ORIGINAL Jagermech's ballistic guns? No me neither. We got these small sticks. And eventually with enough complaining those small sticks were improved - but do not have the same beefy look as the originals. Other examples include the Catapult-K2 and its original, big and scary PPCs - instead of the stick PPCs it has now.
=Matchmaker and PSR. 'nuff said.
=Community Warfare/FW/what-ever-it-is-called and linked to that factions has no depth - just dots on a map and flying one's favourite flag. Being part of a faction (or merc or lone wolf) should have benefits and disadvantages - all linked to a dynamic in-game economy which would be faction warfare. Could have even put in a "battle news feed" based on FW results - just simple stuff such as: Kurita barely defeats Clan Jade Falcon's invasion of New Caladonia - to help bring immersion, and player excitement. And we could still keep the faction leader boards to reinforce what is going on. Having mini-campaigns would have also been nice.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

dervishx5, on 14 September 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

Wow what a great discussion.

I think he really IS Russ

[jss78]

What it looks like to me is they're going for some fixes they can implement quickly.

Problem 1, too few players --> make it into IS-vs-clan, with regular IS-vs-IS events.

Problem 2, invasion is simply not fun enough --> bring in QP game modes which are more fun

I think both are good ideas such, and will make FP better with a modest development effort, as it's mostly just a rearrangement of existing content.

I'd hope for more, but I think realistically this is probably the extent of what PGI can do, given their record in developing anything but art assets.

Ultimately these changes will increase the likelihood that I'll spend some of my playing time in FP.

[RestosIII]

NT Hackman, on 15 September 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

At this point Russ and co. should just flat out give up. Every decision they've made does more damage than good. The playerbase continues to shrink and more people are turning their allegiance against PGI after being subjected to failure after failure. Faction Play was a waste of time and only ever is populated when they have events for it. Interest in mech packs have been steadily declining yet they keep pumping more out instead of doing any real work on the game.

MWO could have been amazing. Too bad that we got a company who under a different name got sued for their complete failure to produce a working fishing game yet still wanted to get paid for essentially trying to sell a lemon.

Ghost Fish mechanics.

[dervishx5]

NT Hackman, on 15 September 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

At this point Russ and co. should just flat out give up. Every decision they've made does more damage than good. The playerbase continues to shrink and more people are turning their allegiance against PGI after being subjected to failure after failure. Faction Play was a waste of time and only ever is populated when they have events for it. Interest in mech packs have been steadily declining yet they keep pumping more out instead of doing any real work on the game.

MWO could have been amazing. Too bad that we got a company who under a different name got sued for their complete failure to produce a working fishing game yet still wanted to get paid for essentially trying to sell a lemon.

We can all wish that PGI hands the reigns over to another company to continue the game and goes on to make Transverse or whatever. But let's face it, the vampire will continue to suck until the last drop of blood has been drained.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Simbacca, on 14 September 2016 - 09:13 PM, said:

I missed the Founder's period by a month. So, I have been around a while. It has been 2 years since the shackles of IGP were cast off - yet various original problems that were voiced over that time (and before) have not been dealt with. Certain solutions to some problems made no sense - the pop tarting (which is legitimate, but was badly abused due to game mechanics) solution of nerfing jump jets. Stopping the abuse of mounting only a single jump jet (jump acceleration) - fine. But the same solution badly affected mechs which spent the tonnage multiple JJ's as well.

=Quirk System, which has a place but created its own series of problems including balance...especially when combined with the weapon module system (which one can stack). Part of the solution, which would add depth and be a nod to lore would have weapons brands - each brand having its own advantage - whether be it range, reload rate, etc.
=Power creep - this affects a lot of games, and granted it is difficult to deal with. But a number of solutions were proposed years ago to help mitigate this issue. Cone of fire, convergence, and/heat etc.
=Dynamic weapons models. I get it - it saves time, but PGI did not seem to notice that the scaling of these models for various mechs made no sense. Any one remember the ORIGINAL Jagermech's ballistic guns? No me neither. We got these small sticks. And eventually with enough complaining those small sticks were improved - but do not have the same beefy look as the originals. Other examples include the Catapult-K2 and its original, big and scary PPCs - instead of the stick PPCs it has now.
=Matchmaker and PSR. 'nuff said.
=Community Warfare/FW/what-ever-it-is-called and linked to that factions has no depth - just dots on a map and flying one's favourite flag. Being part of a faction (or merc or lone wolf) should have benefits and disadvantages - all linked to a dynamic in-game economy which would be faction warfare. Could have even put in a "battle news feed" based on FW results - just simple stuff such as: Kurita barely defeats Clan Jade Falcon's invasion of New Caladonia - to help bring immersion, and player excitement. And we could still keep the faction leader boards to reinforce what is going on. Having mini-campaigns would have also been nice.

well, there were enough of us to put up 5 million for them to START this game with. The highest pack was what 125? So that puts the number at at least 8k

NT Hackman, on 15 September 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

MWO could have been amazing. Too bad that we got a company who under a different name got sued for their complete failure to produce a working fishing game yet still wanted to get paid for essentially trying to sell a lemon.

Arguably worse than that, it was purposefully made AS a lemon being that before they even started beta they told us it would be a "minimally viable product" so they didnt work on it as hard as they could.

[ice trey]

Rather than trying to fix the problem by making the game mode fun or boosting rewards enough to make the wait worth it (or even better, boosting rewards based on how long you were made to wait), they solve the problem by... reducing options. It's like those stingy people who will never replace the toner cartridge in the office, and think that taking it out and shaking it will solve the problem indefinitely.

I really don't think that they're taking this game seriously anymore, but the community have already spoken on what we think about supporting their other games. If they can screw over this beloved franchise and it's fans this hard...

I feel pity for Flying Debris, with the likeness of his art tainted by the dev team who likely used all the founders money on the finest Vancouver green in order to better understand their real target market, and I really hope that HBS's project brings him some peace in knowing some good came out of his work. As for the rest of the team, I hope that that after this, they get stuck making nothing but Candy Crush knockoffs for the rest of their lives.

Edited by ice trey, 15 September 2016 - 06:47 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 September 2016 - 09:18 PM, said:

I think he really IS Russ

Working as intended.