32 replies to this topic

[SilentScreamer]

I am a PUG loyalist so my experience in Community Warfare/Faction Play is probably very different from the large unit members. Now that last weeks faction play event is over I would like to once again pitch a proposal.

Remove Mercenary contract selection from the game. Instead allow mercenaries to only select which mech type (Clan or Inner Sphere) to drop as, then have a matchmaker automatically place the mercenaries on active planets in order get the fastest queue times. Essentially the matchmaker would keep all Mercenaries in a "bucket" instead of a planet queue and would place those mercs in order to fill in ranks of loyalists (the call to arms system already identifies those planets so the matchmaker partially exists already). Example- if 7 davions are queued against 5 kuritians there is currently no match possible. This proposal would fill both sides up to 12 using Mercenaries who queued in Inner Sphere mechs.

- the current "contract" system attempts to balance total population, not active players. (Since Liao and Marik are at +40 right now I would say contracts balances population poorly).

- Mercenary groups would no longer be able to pile up in the "faction of the moment" ( recently Clan Jade Falcon) which leads to both population balance issues and queue balance issues.

So, if the majority of active players are Mercenary the queues will automatically balance to launch matches. If the queues are dominated by one or two loyalist groups that can't queus directly ( previously Jade Falcon and Davion) this system would use mercenaries to balance those peak populations. I think the pros outweigh the cons, especially for large merc units:

1) no more contract penaly hurting c-bill earnings
2) no more waiting for your unit leader to log-in and renew your contract so you can play.
3) If your unit is queuing multiple groups you might actually get to play against each other for c-bills
4) potentially faster queue times instead of waiting for opponents as 3rd+ group in queue
5) status as neutral with respect to Clans/I.S. means you are not locked out of your Clan/I.S. mechs for a week at a time due to a contract. Finish a drop as Clan, then queue up as I.S. next drop.

Downside
1) Mercenaries do not get to pick where you fight. Only what mechs you drop in.
2) Planet control would be very hard to achieve for Mercs as they would not be able to reliably play at the same planet.

Thoughts?

**edit**
added point 5)

Edited by SilentScreamer, 23 September 2016 - 02:57 AM.

[Van mw]

SilentScreamer, on 23 September 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

Remove Mercenary contract selection from the game. Instead allow mercenaries to only select which mech type (Clan or Inner Sphere) to drop as

Mercenaries on round table heavily stressed that they want to use any type (Clan/Inner). And this game is for mercenaries since Phase 3 - you can delete this thread because it's doomed.
Seems like your idea is to let mercenaries fight for any side (Clan/Inner) at any time, based on their current setting that can be changed freely. Ok, this idea may be not so doomed

Edited by Van mw, 23 September 2016 - 02:59 AM.

[SilentScreamer]

Van mw, on 23 September 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

Mercenaries on round table heavily stressed that they want to use any type (Clan/Inner). And this game is for mercenaries since Phase 3 - you can delete this thread because it's doomed.

Thank you Van mw, this suggestion would actually let them do that so because of your post I added #5 above.

[LordNothing]

id actually impose hard limits to each faction's population. dont just encourage people to go to the underpopulated faction, make them. imagine if it were impossible to take a merc contract with the most popular faction, anything that is 15% or more above average population. then expand this to loyalists. if you are a pug freelancer and you want to become a loyalist, you simply cannot be a loyalist in any overpopulated faction (anything above the % over average threshold). you still get the bonus for playing with the underdog though.

for units it would also take the size of the unit into consideration. if a big unit like ms wanted to take a contract with a moderately populated faction, where the unit population plus the faction population would be above the threshold. then that contract would not be available. if you want to have a large unit population you have to accept the consequences of more limited contract selection, you can say the faction you want to join simply cannot afford you.

id also waive desertion penalties on the most populous factions. a global 25% off your lp/rp is insane when a player wants to go to a less populous faction. say you desert jade falcon to go play with the jags, you would have a 0% penalty. if you wanted to go back you might have to pay the full 25% or it might be impossible because they are overpopulated.

you also need to manage inactive players better. any unit will claim that only a fraction of their members are active, and the same applies to factions. units and factions would have reserves. if a player doesn't play in awhile, they get put in the reserve forces and no longer count to population. if you wanted to come back, you would be allowed to so long as it doesn't push a faction population over its threshold. if it did however you would either have to wait for another player from that unit/faction to go on reserves (there might be a waiting list for players who want to reactivate), or go to a different faction/leave the unit. if you chose to leave you wouldn't have any of the usual penalties.

this applies to units mostly so they can keep their inactive players for future use, without them counting towards a faction limit and interfere with contract/allegiance changes. so absent players dont interfere with their operations. its also a safeguard in case they decide to join a faction, then have a lot of inactive players swarm in to artificially bloat the population above the threshold. that unit would have to change allegiance to a less populous faction before that would be permitted.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 September 2016 - 03:32 AM.

[SilentScreamer]

LordNothing, on 23 September 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

id actually impose hard limits to each faction's population. dont just encourage people to go to the underpopulated faction, make them. imagine if it were impossible to take a merc contract with the most popular faction, anything that is 15% or more above average population. then expand this to loyalists. if you are a pug freelancer and you want to become a loyalist, you simply cannot be a loyalist in any overpopulated faction (anything above the % over average threshold). you still get the bonus for playing with the underdog though.

for units it would also take the size of the unit into consideration. if a big unit like ms wanted to take a contract with a moderately populated faction, where the unit population plus the faction population would be above the threshold. then that contract would not be available. if you want to have a large unit population you have to accept the consequences of more limited contract selection, you can say the faction you want to join simply cannot afford you.

id also waive desertion penalties on the most populous factions. a global 25% off your lp/rp is insane when a player wants to go to a less populous faction. say you desert jade falcon to go play with the jags, you would have a 0% penalty. if you wanted to go back you might have to pay the full 25% or it might be impossible because they are overpopulated.

you also need to manage inactive players better. any unit will claim that only a fraction of their members are active, and the same applies to factions. units and factions would have reserves. if a player doesn't play in awhile, they get put in the reserve forces and no longer count to population. if you wanted to come back, you would be allowed to so long as it doesn't push a faction population over its threshold. if it did however you would either have to wait for another player from that unit/faction to go on reserves (there might be a waiting list for players who want to reactivate), or go to a different faction/leave the unit. if you chose to leave you wouldn't have any of the usual penalties.

this applies to units mostly so they can keep their inactive players for future use, without them counting towards a faction limit and interfere with contract/allegiance changes. so absent players dont interfere with their operations. its also a safeguard in case they decide to join a faction, then have a lot of inactive players swarm in to artificially bloat the population above the threshold. that unit would have to change allegiance to a less populous faction before that would be permitted.

I fail to see how your suggestions will help balance the queues. The population cap limit sugestion also seems very difficult to manage...
- who would get priority in your proposef faction population cap?
- what if a unit that gets priorty doesn't play during peak hours? or only on weekends?
- how many unit leaders would want to bother designating members as active/inactive just to launch a match?

I believe MWO would be better off without Mercenary contracts entirely. But, in order to prevent large Merc units from purposely gaming the system, they would not be allowed to pick a planet to drop at. Instead the matchmaker places them in a planet queue determined by the current call to arms system. The choice between loyalist and Mercenary would be:

Loyalist-drop where you want and represent your faction, but you are locked out of some mechs.
Mercenary - sacrafice choice of planets for the ability to switch between clan and IS drop decks each match.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 23 September 2016 - 03:58 AM.

[LordNothing]

SilentScreamer, on 23 September 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

- who would get priority in your proposef faction population cap?

cap would be defined as a percentage above average active players. say the average faction size is 100 active per faction (exaggerated value), assuming a 15% threshold value, a faction with 115 players would count as full and would be unjoinable. priority is first come first serve. for single players, so long as the population is less than 115 players (same example), you can join or reactivate. for units, the active population cannot be 115 - active unit players, if it is you cannot join.

Quote

- what if a unit that gets priorty doesn't play during peak hours? or only on weekends?

depends on how you define an active player. i like the weekly cycle, so you would need to put in at least one fp game a week (or perhaps 2 weeks) to stay active. this meshes well with units on a weekly schedule. this is all managed by the game and not the unit leader, the game decides if you are inactive or not. reactivation is handled on a per player basis. it doesnt matter if you belong to a unit or not, if you want to reactivate, and there is room in the faction that you or your unit currently plays for, then reactivation is instant. if its not you click a button that adds you to the reactivation waiting list (this is for all players who want to activate for that faction). when a place opens up, you are notified and have a window in which to confirm your activation, and you simply have to play game to do this (or it might just be a button, but you would have to play within a week of clicking it to prevent being put back in the reserves), if the window expires, you loose your place an have to go to the end of the list.

Quote

- how many unit leaders would want to bother designating members as active/inactive just to launch a match?

like i said above, the game decides who is active and not. the unit reserves are really just a way for units to have inactive players, which dont count towards the active population of a unit, on its roster. they might be visually flagged for the unit leader if they wanted to prune their list, but no interaction is neccisary on behalf of the unit leadership to mark people as active or inactive. and they can keep those players without penalty. the number of active players only matters when an alliance change occurs. a unit leader would also be notified if their reserve pool is larger than what the faction currently has room for, you would still be able to join or sign a contract with that faction, but it is telling you that its not possible to reactivate all your reserves at once. this likely would not be the case. i expect fairly active cycling of players in and out of factions all the time, so lines should move pretty quickly. slow cycling is a good indication that you are in a faction with too many players, and the unit leaders are responsible for making good decisions in contract selection to keep their players happy (or the members may get angry and leave en masse, and in that case they can and without penalty).

Edited by LordNothing, 23 September 2016 - 04:23 AM.

[SilentScreamer]

Had to chop your post down a bit....

LordNothing, on 23 September 2016 - 04:16 AM, said:

priority is first come first serve.

...define an active player.....at least one fp game a week (or perhaps 2 weeks) to stay active.

for units, the active population cannot be 115 - active unit players, if it is you cannot join.

I just don't see these criteria as viable for healthy queue populations during the week (and I'm very doubtful even a weekend population would support it). I think a population cap would greatly anger both casual players and committed units when they hit the population cap wall and can't play.

Do you have any feedback to offer on the original post?

Edited by SilentScreamer, 23 September 2016 - 04:35 AM.

[LordNothing]

SilentScreamer, on 23 September 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

Had to chop your post down a bit....


I just don't see these criteria as viable for healthy queue populations during the week (and I'm very doubtful even a weekend population would support it). I think a population cap would greatly anger both casual players and committed units when they hit the population cap wall and can't play.

Do you have any feedback to offer on the original post?

ultimately its just a method for optimizing the available population, which most of the time seems completely non-existant. it might also be that players/units dont have good info about the population distribution and end up making bad target choices as a result. the merc bonuses are really the only yard stick, and those dont exclude inactives and does nothing to even out loyalist distributions. so just accounting for the inactive players better would benefit the existing system, even without enforcing hard limits to faction sizes. with that in place then it would allow further investigation into how to optimize populations.

if it does actually turn out that there are severe mismatches in population, then better controls are in order including hard limits and dynamic penalties. you can also determine the optimal number of buckets for the current population at any given time. and potentially have dynamic bucket management. fewer buckets when the population is low and more when the population is high. theres a lot you can do with just the metering aspects of my idea.

as for feedback about your idea, i kind of like the notion of mercs having to take both sides in a conflict something about that tickles my fancy. mercs should act like mercs. planet control for mercs doesnt make sense (even though there is some of that in lore, like the last book in the grey death saga). were never gonna get strongholds or anything really that makes holding a planet relevant, other than the trickle of mc it brings. and you really dont git a large selection of planets to fight over, so the oppritunity to have mercs defend their base is never utilized.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 September 2016 - 05:02 AM.

[Darky101]

I like the idea!
I'm a lone mercenary PUG, all I want is fast drops in my choice mechs, either IS or Clan.

[SilentScreamer]

I have added a poll-only topic regarding this discussion in Feature Suggestions

http://mwomercs.com/...-queue-balance/

[Kael Posavatz]

LordNothing, on 23 September 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

id actually impose hard limits to each faction's population. dont just encourage people to go to the underpopulated faction, make them. imagine if it were impossible to take a merc contract with the most popular faction, anything that is 15% or more above average population. then expand this to loyalists. if you are a pug freelancer and you want to become a loyalist, you simply cannot be a loyalist in any overpopulated faction (anything above the % over average threshold). you still get the bonus for playing with the underdog though.

The problem with this is that there are Mercs who are just devoted to their lore as any Loyalist.

There are groups like the Highlanders that are technically mercs who are strongly associated with one faction. There are those like the post-Misery Wolf's Dragoons that are bitter enemies of House Kurita. I doubt most of the Lore-Mercs would want to play with the Clans. etc.

[LordNothing]

Kael Posavatz, on 23 September 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

The problem with this is that there are Mercs who are just devoted to their lore as any Loyalist.

There are groups like the Highlanders that are technically mercs who are strongly associated with one faction. There are those like the post-Misery Wolf's Dragoons that are bitter enemies of House Kurita. I doubt most of the Lore-Mercs would want to play with the Clans. etc.

those units would just have to be careful about their numbers. if you want to have a large unit, you are going to have to concede a little flexibility for the good of the game. if you have a smaller unit then you can get in under the thresholds.

[Monkey Lover]

I would love this idea over the 2 bucket system they plan on doing.

If we limit merc group drops to like 6 and increase loyalists contract length it would be even better. If you dont do this big groups will just move to loyalist. Because they're losing some freedom they would need a cbill boost to make up for it.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 23 September 2016 - 06:34 PM.

[DarklightCA]

This idea completely screws over Merc units that want any ability to capture planets as you are forcing them to spend their days in random queue's and there are not enough loyalists to actively maintain their own queue's.

It would be better to just have a selection above all the planets that pits IS players/groups into a random queue against Clan players/groups that also selected that option and dropped them on a random planet. A "**** the queue's, just give me a game already" option and allow Mercs the ability to still pick and choose planets.

[Kael Posavatz]

LordNothing, on 23 September 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

those units would just have to be careful about their numbers. if you want to have a large unit, you are going to have to concede a little flexibility for the good of the game. if you have a smaller unit then you can get in under the thresholds.

Gamers are like cats. There are precisely two ways to get them where you want them to go. You can pick them up and drag them, or you can make them think that where you want them to go is where they wanted to go all along (I suggest tuna).

The problem with A is that gamers are playing your game because they want to. Dragging them where you want them is a good way to make them not want to play your game. (which caused a population drop so you have to move more people and...)

I fail to see how your response addresses my concern. Currently, if a merc unit wants to only play for one faction they can at the cost of not getting as big a c-bill reward. What you suggest is that a merc unit be barred from playing with that faction if another faction needs more bodies. If you cannot incentivize people to move willingly, how it forcing them to move going to make them want to continue playing? For that matter, say they do stick around, how are you going to ensure they play FW during their contract period when they could drop in the QP-group queue instead, or do internal scrims using private lobbies, etc.?

[Monkey Lover]

DarklightCA, on 25 September 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

This idea completely screws over Merc units that want any ability to capture planets as you are forcing them to spend their days in random queue's and there are not enough loyalists to actively maintain their own queue's.

It would be better to just have a selection above all the planets that pits IS players/groups into a random queue against Clan players/groups that also selected that option and dropped them on a random planet. A "**** the queue's, just give me a game already" option and allow Mercs the ability to still pick and choose planets.

Mercs shouldn't care about planets only money.

[DarklightCA]

Monkey Lover, on 25 September 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

Mercs shouldn't care about planets only money.

Planets are money and are suppose to be the entire purpose of the gamemode. Also considering the majority Unit base that has the capability to capture planets are merc's make that whole 'planetary' conquest gamemode problematic if that the solo queue loyalists and the handful of units that are still loyalist are the only people that can capture planets.

Edited by DarklightCA, 25 September 2016 - 04:36 PM.

[LordNothing]

Kael Posavatz, on 25 September 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

Gamers are like cats. There are precisely two ways to get them where you want them to go. You can pick them up and drag them, or you can make them think that where you want them to go is where they wanted to go all along (I suggest tuna).

The problem with A is that gamers are playing your game because they want to. Dragging them where you want them is a good way to make them not want to play your game. (which caused a population drop so you have to move more people and...)

I fail to see how your response addresses my concern. Currently, if a merc unit wants to only play for one faction they can at the cost of not getting as big a c-bill reward. What you suggest is that a merc unit be barred from playing with that faction if another faction needs more bodies. If you cannot incentivize people to move willingly, how it forcing them to move going to make them want to continue playing? For that matter, say they do stick around, how are you going to ensure they play FW during their contract period when they could drop in the QP-group queue instead, or do internal scrims using private lobbies, etc.?

you can totally heard cats, all you have to do is open a can of tuna.

when i play fp i do whatever i can to get a game. where i fight, who i fight, and what banner i fight under are at the back end of the priorities list. i care about the meat of the game (invasion, scouting, counter), not the trimmings (factions, banners, the map). so when i find a game im happy (even if my team turns out to be a potato salad). so when someone says they want their cake and they want to eat it too, i kind of think they deserve the current state of things.

the reality is that if everyone goes to jf for example, that there will be nobody to fight, and fp essentially becomes an over glorified lobby simulator. pgi implemented factions but it wasnt enough, people wanted to merc, so we got merc, now people want to be loyalist mercs. where does it end? we have 11 factions and a pile of buckets and not enough players to go around. at some point the rp experience needs to be secondary to dropping in a battlemech and killing things.

its not like you dont have options, option one is go loyalist and call yourselves mercs, this means you dont have to worry about getting pushed out of your faction. you know who you are, why care what the game thinks? option two is to be mercs and prefer to contract with a unit, and if you cant try to contract with one of its allies. option 3 is to keep your numbers low enough so its easier to squeeze into the faction you want. no matter what you get the same serving of meat. controls are there to heard the people like me who dont care wherever there is room. i get a 10% bonus with kurita when i prefer steiner, so be it im going kurita. last event to qualify for the clan mech, i went ghost bear so i wouldnt end up fighting my perferred faction, and it worked out great.

also i doubt its the loyalists (and loyal mercs) causing all the disparity. i think most of it is from the roving merc units, who go where the action is vs where the bonuses are. thats more of a case for buckets. and you really cant reduce those without hurting the loyalists more.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 September 2016 - 04:39 PM.

[SilentScreamer]

DarklightCA, on 25 September 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

This idea completely screws over Merc units that want any ability to capture planets as you are forcing them to spend their days in random queue's and there are not enough loyalists to actively maintain their own queue's.

It would be better to just have a selection above all the planets that pits IS players/groups into a random queue against Clan players/groups that also selected that option and dropped them on a random planet. A "**** the queue's, just give me a game already" option and allow Mercs the ability to still pick and choose planets.

Mercenary Unit Contracts have not balanced populations. If Mercs are used as gap-fillers for Loyalist queues I think we would see more activity and higher quality matches.

So let's be honest, what do we want out of Faction Play?
a) 24/7 ghost drops
b) PUG stomp extravaganza
c) balanced queues where you get matches quickly and are just as likely to face a well-coordinated Merc unit as PUGs.

The great part is BOTH sides are likely to have Mercs unless one faction is dominating the queues. Yes, under my proposal it would be difficult (but not impossible) for a Merc Unit to get credit for planet capture/defense. Basically, a powerhouse faction has to be pounding against a lower population faction for conditions to favor Mercs winning a planet. If your Merc unit is willing to queue up when a little guy is getting beat down then yes, you get your 15 MC for the unit.

Ex1: sayJade Falcon, throws 90+ pilots in queue against a faction with low population Marik/Liao. The matchmaker will put the Mercs match after match unless sufficent Marik forces start appearing. If the Mercs perform well they will get credit for the defense and their tag goes on the planet.

Ex2: if one Ghost Bear pilot tries to attack a FRR world, the other 11 spots in the drop will automatically be filled with Mercs by the matchmaker. Again, the Merc unit will earn the planet if no Ghost Bear forces step in to assist in the Invasion matches.

Ex3: all non-merc faction balance their queues on their own. Mercs will be very spread out by the matchmaker, and do not drop at the same planet more than twice while playing. Yes, no win this time. However, I would not have written this proposal if the Factions were capable of balancing themselves under the current contract system.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 25 September 2016 - 09:14 PM.

[DarklightCA]

SilentScreamer, on 25 September 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

Mercenary Unit Contracts have not balanced populations. If Mercs are used as gap-fillers for Loyalist queues I think we would see more activity and higher quality matches.

So let's be honest, what do we want out of Faction Play?
a) 24/7 ghost drops
PUG stomp extravaganza
c) balanced queues where you get matches quickly and are just as likely to face a well-coordinated Merc unit as PUGs.

The great part is BOTH sides are likely to have Mercs unless one faction is dominating the queues. Yes, under my proposal it would be difficult (but not impossible) for a Merc Unit to get credit for planet capture/defense. Basically, a powerhouse faction has to be pounding against a lower population faction for conditions to favor Mercs winning a planet. If your Merc unit is willing to queue up when a little guy is getting beat down then yes, you get your 15 MC for the unit.

Ex1: sayJade Falcon, throws 90+ pilots in queue against a faction with low population Marik/Liao. The matchmaker will put the Mercs match after match unless sufficent Marik forces start appearing. If the Mercs perform well they will get credit for the defense and their tag goes on the planet.

Ex2: if one Ghost Bear pilot tries to attack a FRR world, the other 11 spots in the drop will automatically be filled with Mercs by the matchmaker. Again, the Merc unit will earn the planet if no Ghost Bear forces step in to assist in the Invasion matches.

Ex3: all non-merc faction balance their queues on their own. Mercs will be very spread out by the matchmaker, and do not drop at the same planet more than twice while playing. Yes, no win this time. However, I would not have written this proposal if the Factions were capable of balancing themselves under the current contract system.

Balance what populations? Last I checked most factions had very little and even less loyalists. Give the primary Unit population no access to capture planets and only act as fillers and give the primarily solo players access to planets they can't capture regardless, what could go wrong?

Also putting mercs in a randomized queue completely makes it impossible for them to capture planets. Having spread wins on random planets vs loyalist units focusing their wins a planet at a time. I am all for giving loyalists a edge but that's too much. This system is not going to produce higher quality matches and is not going to promote more activity than what PGI is adding already.

You are suggesting that PGI butt **** mercenaries in order to save Factions that are already currently irrelevant and that's not ideal.