38 replies to this topic

[Rock Roller]

So I often read much dismay in regards to Power Creep. This started me thinking about other games I have played in the online space. The only time that a title offered no Power Creep the game was a stand alone PVE non expansion title. Even expansions on these titles saw introduction of more powerful options. Either new more powerful weapons, options or class features.

With every online game that I have played Power Creep is normal, expected and excepted. You do generally see class & weapon balancing constantly in Flux and being balanced.

Maybe I have missed these other titles that have a better handle on this issue. If you can think of a title that has this nailed down can you share it with me? I would like to see how they handle this issue.

Is this comparison due to the existence of the TT game? The reason I bring this up is the reality that if you own or have looked at the Tech books, tech power Creep was evident in each advancing book.

Anyway, just one guys thoughts on something that is often advanced as an issue that I don't understand.

[Appogee]

Power Creep renders many old Mechs noncompetitive.

The fact that other games suffered from it is no reason to simply accept it in MWO.

[FupDup]

In MWO, the biggest issue with it is that only a few things get the privilege of creeping forward...the majority of gundams and guns are left behind.

Edited by FupDup, 28 September 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[RestosIII]

Power creep in other games usually involves harder content that requires the power creep. This game is just QP and, rarely, people playing FW. Power creep, when unchecked, kills games. And no-one disputes that power creep was in TT. Hell, the creators of TT lamented the power creep they created.

For context on a game that (used) to do power creep well, WoT did alright with it. But around the time the second German TD line showed up, lolno.

[Lostdragon]

Asymmetrical powercreep is bad in PVP games because it creates a stale meta. When you have symettrical powercreep through an expansion or something similar that is totally different because all players and/or mobs become more powerful.

[Rock Roller]

Gents as new content comes out it is a side effect. It applied to Battletech as well. Why wouldn't it apply to MWO? I am not trying to say it isn't an issue. I am saying even in the roots of this game it's evident.

I do agree that old mechs become increasingly outdated and need updating.

The only way that power creep can be avoided is tone not add more mechs or weapons.

[RestosIII]

Rock Roller, on 28 September 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

Gents as new content comes out it is a side effect. It applied to Battletech as well. Why wouldn't it apply to MWO? I am not trying to say it isn't an issue. I am saying even in the roots of this game it's evident.

I do agree that old mechs become increasingly outdated and need updating.

The only way that power creep can be avoided is tone not add more mechs or weapons.

New mechs/=/new content. PvE and major changes to game modes/FW would be content.

[Lostdragon]

Rock Roller, on 28 September 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

Gents as new content comes out it is a side effect. It applied to Battletech as well. Why wouldn't it apply to MWO? I am not trying to say it isn't an issue. I am saying even in the roots of this game it's evident.

I do agree that old mechs become increasingly outdated and need updating.

The only way that power creep can be avoided is tone not add more mechs or weapons.

Well, again, it is fine if it symettical. If new weapons come out that makes all mechs potentially more powerful, and that is ok.

When a new mech comes out and it has the perfect storm of great attributes then it obsoletes other mechs that don't have as many good qualities. That is bad because then that mech dominates the meta and makes it stale.

[DAYLEET]

RestosIII, on 28 September 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

Power creep in other games usually involves harder content that requires the power creep. This game is just QP and, rarely, people playing FW. Power creep, when unchecked, kills games. And no-one disputes that power creep was in TT. Hell, the creators of TT lamented the power creep they created.

For context on a game that (used) to do power creep well, WoT did alright with it. But around the time the second German TD line showed up, lolno.

Yeah, power creep in pve is fine. In pvp its stupid and frowned upon.

[Rock Roller]

Lostdragon, on 28 September 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

Well, again, it is fine if it symettical. If new weapons come out that makes all mechs potentially more powerful, and that is ok.

When a new mech comes out and it has the perfect storm of great attributes then it obsoletes other mechs that don't have as many good qualities. That is bad because then that mech dominates the meta and makes it stale.

I don't disagree. I want to see the game add new mechs, WEAPONS, light engines and all the other goodies. The fear of Power Creep plays a part in so many posts. Personally I am okay with it.

I also don't call for nerfs. I am much more in favor of updates to under performing mechs. Victor *cough* Mist Lynx*cough*.

The only thing that Power Creep PGI flame posts that make sense to me is hard point inflation on mechs that don't need it. Some mechs I am all for it on under performing units.

[SmithMPBT]

8X UAC10 Clan mechs will be a thing at some point. While us poor Inner Spheroids will make do with 3X UAC5s.

[Rock Roller]

SmithMPBT, on 28 September 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

8X UAC10 Clan mechs will be a thing at some point. While us poor Inner Spheroids will make do with 3X UAC5s.

While I have clan mechs I mostly play IS. Later IS get pretty crazy as well. Personally some of the mechs like the Nightstar variants excite me a great deal.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

There are a couple problems with Power Creep in regards to MWO.

The first is it makes the game really look like "Pay To Win."
The 2nd is that it screws up IS v. Clan balance.

The KDK-3 is the biggest offender of recent history, but I do not think anything can compete with the introduction of the Clans in general. Look how much had to be reworked because of clan mechs. General weapon stat and dynamic alterations, quirks, ghost heat etc etc etc.

The question in my mind is what big new super meta creation will PGI give us next that in effect tops the KDK-3?

[Rock Roller]

So like I suspected no game is great at this. I do understand the issues it brings up. How do we advance as a game with new content but make it work. My main point is that the game will change. To me complaints about Power Creep just isn't productive.

I think PGI is scared of introducing new content by how much outcry comes from us the player base.

The thought that you bought a VW Bug in 1973. Now you never expect a better car to have been produced in 2016 seems like a very flawed concept.

I do think the ability to add new components and updated models should help keep older units relevant.

Edited by Rock Roller, 28 September 2016 - 01:56 PM.

[Jman5]

Powercreep can be fine as long as you take a holistic approach. If you just powercreep one aspect of the game it makes things lopsided.

In mechwarrior online, offensive capability was power-creeped in a variety of ways and there was very little defensive power creeps. The damage output we see from typical meta-mechs is probably on the order of 100% greater than the meta-mechs of yester-year. Meanwhile a well quirked mech might get a 10% hitpoint boost in quirks.

Edited by Jman5, 28 September 2016 - 02:29 PM.

[Rock Roller]

Jman5, on 28 September 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

Powercreep can be fine as long as you take a holistic approach. If you just powercreep one aspect of the game it makes things lopsided.

In mechwarrior online, offensive capability was power-creeped in a variety of ways and there was very little defensive power creeps. Hitpoint quirks are all over the place and even the most quirked mechs didn't compensate.

Totally agree on the randomized structure quirks. It seems like PGI plays odd favorits here. Black Knight has HP quirks my Victor needs but doesn't have even with being the worst performing assault? Since the rescale the Wolf Hound has okay HP buffs but the same sized Firestarter dosnt??

[TVMA Doc]

Appogee, on 28 September 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Power Creep renders many old Mechs noncompetitive.

The fact that other games suffered from it is no reason to simply accept it in MWO.

That being said, power creep is often the only thing that gets people to buy the "new expansion" or the "bundle", etc. It's essentially expected unless you really want the game to stagnate as it was when it first launched.

What could always be done is to have newer versions of cherished mechs, etc. That or people have to realize that an old Sherman tank really isn't going to be competitive against Abrams MBTs.

[RestosIII]

SmithMPBT, on 28 September 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

8X UAC10 Clan mechs will be a thing at some point. While us poor Inner Spheroids will make do with 3X UAC5s.

AHEM.



Give us the Kraken PGI. You know you want the ultimate power creep.

[Tarl Cabot]

The difference in Power Creep between Clan and IS mechs is that the base foundation is not similar. The primary culprit is the huge difference between cXL surviving the loss of one side torso whereas the isXL loss of one ST disables the mech, and in MWO there are no actual engine crit hits. IS Omnis with isXL, if ever introduced, will definitely not be seen as power creep with the current settings, even with structural quirks, since the opponent would only need to aim at ONE side torso to take it out, no ifs/ands/buts.

The other issue is that IS mechs are composed of more humanoid mechs that has main guns in the arms being fired from the waist, without the ability to raise each said weapon-mounted any higher. Clans have fewer humanoid mechs but even theirs suffer from the same issue.

There are a few other items but the above, at least for me, the biggest items.

Edit - the other item are weapons. Boardgame the ranges and other stats may work but in a PVP environment those do need an overhaul without the rampaging quirks, THEN add quirks for flavor instead of purely for balancing reasons.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 28 September 2016 - 04:26 PM.

[FalconerGray]

Power creep exists in this game because it wasn't conceived with any of the natural balancing mechanics that would have made it irrelevant. Sadly, the game was never envisioned on the scale necessary to allow the IP the chance to reach it's true potential.

Besides that unfortunate point, most of the power creep we do have in the game is purely down to timing. The cries of "Power Creep!" echoed on after the Kodiak release, but what if it was to have been there from the very start?