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Why Ed Is Winning The War


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#41 Imperius

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 08:04 PM

Well looks like that was /thread

#42 Cementi

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 08:08 PM

Sorry a poll about ED is premature as we do not know the final incarnation of it.

All values on TS are subject to change as its a test server. Untill they put up a build and say "Ok guys this is the values we are planning on releasing to live. Let us know what you think." There is no point in making a poll.

There is also the sad fact that the majority of the people that would vote in said poll would be uneducated on the topic and would likely vote one way or another on personal bias. ie oh ed is meant to hurt alpha strikes I hate alpha strikes I am all for it or the opposite ed is meant to hurt alpha strikes but I am incapable of playing a build that has to push more than one button I hate ed therefore I am voting against it.

See bias.....mine is obvious is yours?

The fact is they have to decide what is best for the game. Allowing alpha warrior online to continue its reign (at which point I will be selling all mechs so that people cant ask for my stuff and never coming back) or doing SOMETHING to balance the game and lose the alpha warriors.

The developers have to come to a decision as to which players they want to keep. Thats basicly the bottom line.

While I do agree that fun game modes is probally a more pressing concern (sarcastic yay for all FP maps designed to funnel people into killboxes) the fact is what we are testing is ED so we need the best system in place for ED that will hopefully not drive away too many players. Either decision is going to drive some away.

If nothing else ED does one thing that ghost heat fails 95% at. ED actually has elements in game to explain how it works and when it is triggered. Ghost heat just has a vague oh if you fire this many of this weapon you will generate higher than normal heat. Thats it. Yes a player can go read 3rd party site and run testing grounds to figure it out. However that is IMO lazy development and indicators for when you trigger a heat penalty need to be in game. ED does this fairly well.

Now as to if I am for or against ED. I am for it for it being more visible if nothing else. ED by itself will however not fix the alpha warrior mentality at least in any of its incarnations on test server. For that to happen real meaningful heat penalties are needed.

So yes I am in the I hate Alpha Warrior Online bring on ED crowd. If they balk at this like they did at the entire infowarfare system because the cryhards hated laserlock (anyone else having deja vu as seems like we had some test servers around this time last year and they went silent leading up to december and then announced they scrapped the entire thing to work on FP, I am expecting the exact same thing again). I will finally be done. I did not buy a collectors or hero pack for the warhammer or kodiak as my interest was flagging. Bought the basics more for premium time than anything. Would have bought the Viper, Cyclops, and Huntsman packs but I skipped them completely as I feel PGI is going to drop the ball. Heck if they would have released some good info this year I might even have picked up one of those (really wanted a cyclops) but instead they keep saying "Wait till mechcon......Big news at mechcon" So they want to wait to mechcon to tell us anything I figured I would wait till mechcon to buy anything and if the news is not REALLY impressive I will likely stop even reading the forums. Still wont buy anything till they actually deliver whatever they promise at mechcon though.

Sorry guys, feeling a bit salty as I love the game I just feel PGI is killing the chance of the IP ever being picked up by anyone else ever again.

#43 Y E O N N E

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 08:32 PM

ED is winning because it is PGI's project and they have decided that they don't want to waste the effort just yet. Nothing more, nothing less.

#44 Davers

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 09:02 PM

View Postcazidin, on 22 October 2016 - 07:36 PM, said:

For PGI, Energy Draw is a great and innovative system well within their technical expertise. Zero Convergence, Lock-On Convergence, a proper and functional Heat Scale*, which I'd vote for, btw, and other exotic solutions will not be implemented.

I suggest that, rather than argue against it or for a new system, we work with what we got and try to make it better with constructive feedback. Or angry tweets. Whichever works best.

*Russ said that this was possible, and that the Engineers found a solution to whatever problem prevented them from implementing a proper heat scale with real penalties, but this tweet was quickly buried and possibly deleted. Posted Image

Didn't Russ say there was an issue that prevented ED that was resolved? I don't remember the tweet having anything to do with heat scale penalties.

#45 GreenHell

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 09:22 PM

I was one of the people who actually got into 12v12 matches on the PTS. You want my thoughts on ED? It's ****.
Oh, you wanted more?
...
Ok, fine.

LRM's - lurms are ****. ED won't fix that. Even firing 8 LRM-5's won't help you when the spread is nerfed to LRM-10 size.
SRM's - SRM's will always be good in a brawl. Being able to fire more at once makes them better. Buff what's already good, am I right?!?! DX
Streaks - **** STREAKS! They're **** now, and they're **** in ED. Seriously, why the **** is the cooldown so ******* long, and they didn't even touch the spread.

IS Lasers - As in ALL of them - ******* ****. The only good laser left will be the Medium laser. Large Lasers that do SEVEN ******* DAMAGE?!?!?!?!? **** YOU! 8 DAMAGE LPL's?!?!? WHY EVEN BOTHER! I guess you can do 10 small lasers now and be EXTRA **** if you want. YAY

Clan Lasers - ERLL above all else. Seriously, if you ran the last PTS then you know about this. c-ERLL's with 1.25 beam time is OP AS ****. Being able to fire 3 at once without penalty is also OP AS ****. All the other lasers are a bit nerfed actually, since it's dumb to try and get an even 30 alpha out of them, and the c-LPL is TOO nerfed. c-MPL felt pretty good with the better beam time and un-nerfed range so there's that too. ERLL and MPL good, all others are meh... They're not bad... just meh.

IS PPC's - Firing 3 at once is cool, but still too damned hot to be viable. Especially ERPPC's. MOAR VELOCITY PLZ
C -ERPPC's - Basically the same as now, but with a worse cooldown. ******* great right? At least you don't overheat from firing 3 at once? I guess? Whatever...

IS/C Gauss - GAUSS WILL ALWAYS BE GOOD! STFU ABOUT IT ALWAYS BEING GOOD! NEXT!!!

IS Dakka - NERFED, but still OK. AC/5's with the cooldown of AC/10's now... And 20's are worse than before. 2's are the best now... ****. Oh, but the LBX got some lov- **** THAT. LBX's are still worse than normal AC's, even when those AC's are nerfed!
C Dakka - ALSO NERFED, but still good because Ultra's. Even the UAC/10 still felt OK. Again, 2's are the best now... WTF

So, what did we learn boys and girls? Gauss is still good, PPC's are still good, c-ERLL's are better than every other laser, Dakka will be all Ultra/2's and Ultra/10's (because Kodiaks), and SRM's are still King of the Brawl and are made BETTER... WTF!??!

So there's 3 good playstyles. Snipe / Poptart at 800m, (mostly Clan) Dakka, and SRM brawling.

Such diverse, much gameplay... wow...

#46 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 09:47 PM

You are getting more at other balancing aspects that have nothing to do with ED. the common thing I keep seeing is people making arguments and saying well, since ED doesn't account for these things or fix them therefore ED fails. Thats some really flawed logic. Newtons laws don't account for the relatively small that doesn't mean they failed.

ED tackles a very specific thing. That is it, no more no less. Weapon balance, and mech balance. Any other balance issue has nothing to do with ED.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 22 October 2016 - 09:48 PM.


#47 Cementi

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 09:56 PM

@GreenHell seems your problems are with the current test numbers for damage on the various weapons (at least mostly) and not ED.

#48 Tibbnak

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 10:05 PM

I'm still not sure why Russ/Paul thought the way they did PTS was an effective test. Or that they even understand how to test changes in the first place.

If they really wanted to test ED then that would be the only change on the PTS, but they also threw in all these random weapon changes and equipment and base system changes at the same time, making testing ED specifically pointless as there is no control group.

What's worse is that they kept juggling these weapon and equipment and system changes too often entirely based off of how many people tweeted russ that day.

#49 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 10:13 PM

View PostTibbnak, on 22 October 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

I'm still not sure why Russ/Paul thought the way they did PTS was an effective test. Or that they even understand how to test changes in the first place.

If they really wanted to test ED then that would be the only change on the PTS, but they also threw in all these random weapon changes and equipment and base system changes at the same time, making testing ED specifically pointless as there is no control group.

What's worse is that they kept juggling these weapon and equipment and system changes too often entirely based off of how many people tweeted russ that day.

seriously? "entirely based on the tweets russ gets. Dude com-on, you do not really believe that.

#50 Tristan Winter

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 10:22 PM

Posted Image

#51 Cementi

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 10:26 PM

View PostTibbnak, on 22 October 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

I'm still not sure why Russ/Paul thought the way they did PTS was an effective test. Or that they even understand how to test changes in the first place.

If they really wanted to test ED then that would be the only change on the PTS, but they also threw in all these random weapon changes and equipment and base system changes at the same time, making testing ED specifically pointless as there is no control group.

What's worse is that they kept juggling these weapon and equipment and system changes too often entirely based off of how many people tweeted russ that day.


View PostBLOOD WOLF, on 22 October 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

seriously? "entirely based on the tweets russ gets. Dude com-on, you do not really believe that.


While Im not convinced that the tweets were the sole reason for the changes in PTS sessions I do agree that the lack a control group is an issue because they change to much at once.

I mean just look how many are raging about ED but are in fact complaining about the changes made to weapons and not directly at the ED mechanic.

Edited by Cementi, 22 October 2016 - 10:26 PM.


#52 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 10:29 PM

View PostCementi, on 22 October 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:




While Im not convinced that the tweets were the sole reason for the changes in PTS sessions I do agree that the lack a control group is an issue because they change to much at once.

I mean just look how many are raging about ED but are in fact complaining about the changes made to weapons and not directly at the ED mechanic.

I believe the control group is simply the live server. You can easily demonstrate the differences. between the two and model the same builds on both clients to get a comparison.

unless somebody can prove that ED somehow does not do a better job at applying the penalties to all weapons then arguing against it is simply asinine, and they rather waste time writing a long post then making a video or getting someone else to make the video that demonstrates why.

Its just fact that the current system doesn't penalize mixed builds and you can make some mean high alphas, under ED they cant get around that. A dynamic system beats out a static system any day.

Once somebody actually demonstrates this to a level that is satisfactory, then I will say, you know what maybe they got a point. So far I have seen none of that, rather just some fallacious statements, and simple sentences that do nothing to demonstrate anything.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 22 October 2016 - 10:35 PM.


#53 Cementi

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 10:35 PM

I agree with you BW however most players are not able to objectively tell the difference between the weapon tweaks and ED itself.

Simply better to limit the things changed but thats my opinion. I do agree that ED is far better at what it does than Ghost heat. I do think it can be done better though.

#54 AnTi90d

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 10:46 PM

While the weapon tweaks were mostly garbage, ED itself is still a terrible idea.

I have enough other games downloaded, now, that I actually do hope they shove it onto the LIVE server for a week, just so PGI can feel the backlash of those that aren't permitted in Russler's Twitter safespace.

Posted Image



#55 Ace Selin

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 10:50 PM

View PostChuck Jager, on 22 October 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

Remember what Darwin said about change

It kills of your existing player base ?

#56 BearFlag

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 10:52 PM

View PostBLOOD WOLF, on 22 October 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:


unless somebody can prove that ED somehow does not do a better job at applying the penalties to all weapons then arguing against it is simply asinine, and they rather waste time writing a long post then making a video or getting someone else to make the video that demonstrates why.

[color=#959595]Its just fact that the current system doesn't penalize mixed builds and you can make some mean high alphas, under ED they cant get around that. A dynamic system beats out a static system any day.[/color]



A punitive "system" is a poor way to solve a balance problem. And a "dynamic" punitive system is not any better.

Closing the loop holes of Ghost Heat 1 is indeed solved ... by creating Ghost 2. But that was not the only stated design goal. The other specifically mentioned was TTK. And ED would certainly stretch this out. ED also "solves" the magic half second threshold of the current system with a sliding window effect created by the recharge rate.

So what's wrong with it?

1) It's not one system but two. It is ED plus many weapons changes.

2) It's still ghost heat. The only real difference is what triggers this EXTRA heat.

3) It nerfs by weight class. Most lights will never trigger. Every assault can.

4) It is unnecessarily convoluted and unnecessary in fact.

Given that nearly every weapon has been touched along with other parameters, the question is pregnant. Why not just use all these parameters to reach the goal? Get rid of BOTH Ghost Heat and ED. Neither is needed. If you really want heat to be the limiting factor, that's easy. Increase it across the board, lower the overheat horizon, reduce dissipation, etc.

But that's not the only way. Increase armor, decrease damage, increase cooldown, dump "optimum" range on lasers, increase spreads. STOP HARD POINT INFLATION.

You could also bring in other penalties for running at high heat. At high heat, AC jam chance, increased UAC jam chance, reduced laser output, PPC shutdown, target lock problems, increased missile spread, mech slow down, etc, etc.

ED may "solve" the presumed problems. But if we're willing to tweak every other parameter in the game, it's not needed and it's added complexity not wanted.

Edited by BearFlag, 22 October 2016 - 11:14 PM.


#57 guy0320

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 10:59 PM

View PostBLOOD WOLF, on 22 October 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

Its just fact that the current system doesn't penalize mixed builds and you can make some mean high alphas, under ED they cant get around that. A dynamic system beats out a static system any day.


Wow, never thought that I would ever see someone say that mixed builds were the devil and need to be nerfed. I find it funny that you think that being able to alpha true to lore stock builds without some sort of heat penalty is really what is killing this game. I guess it just shows how out of touch you are with the rest of the playerbase.

#58 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 11:02 PM

View Postguy0320, on 22 October 2016 - 10:59 PM, said:

the rest of the playerbase.

watch out for these statements.

I never said mixed builds where the devil and needed to be nerfed. So we can stop at the top and clarify because I do not think you know my position.

#59 Ace Selin

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 11:12 PM

The rest of the playerbase, all of us do not agree with BLOOD WOLF who believes mixed builds are the devils spawn and should be removed from the game.

Fight ED, Fight BLOOD WOLF, let mixed builds be viable again!!!!

#60 guy0320

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 11:14 PM

View PostBLOOD WOLF, on 22 October 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

watch out for these statements.

I never said mixed builds where the devil and needed to be nerfed. So we can stop at the top and clarify because I do not think you know my position.


Really, you say that the reason we need ED is because mixed builds can get around ghost heat, yet you then turn around and say that mixed builds are not a problem that needs to be addressed. If mixed builds are not a problem and do not need to be nerfed, then why do we need ED? Would not simply linking ERPPC's and guass inside the current ghost heat system take care of most of the problem builds on live without blanket nerfing all mixed builds? Why must we use a sledgehammer when all we need is a scalpel?





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