257 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

guy0320, on 22 October 2016 - 11:14 PM, said:

Really, you say that the reason we need ED is because mixed builds can get around ghost heat, yet you then turn around and say that mixed builds are not a problem that needs to be addressed. If mixed builds are not a problem and do not need to be nerfed, then why do we need ED? Would not simply linking ERPPC's and guass inside the current ghost heat system take care of most of the problem builds on live without blanket nerfing all mixed builds? Why must we use a sledgehammer when all we need is a scalpel?

Because scalpels require care and precision. It's much easier to just smash something repeatedly with a sledgehammer until it stops begging for mercy. I, uh, am talking about balance here, nothing else.



But yeah, ED punishes players for daring to have loadouts that aren't going to fire in sets of 30 damage each. Which is stupid.

[Lightfoot]

As I see it you have to reduce the heat of energy weapons to apply ED's additional heat penalty. Battle Tech already leverages significant heat penalties on Energy and heat is hard-capped by dissipation rates and max-heat. If they can't figure that out, it won't work.

[BLOOD WOLF]

guy0320, on 22 October 2016 - 11:14 PM, said:

Really, you say that the reason we need ED is because mixed builds can get around ghost heat, yet you then turn around and say that mixed builds are not a problem that needs to be addressed. If mixed builds are not a problem and do not need to be nerfed, then why do we need ED? Would not simply linking ERPPC's and guass inside the current ghost heat system take care of most of the problem builds on live without blanket nerfing all mixed builds? Why must we use a sledgehammer when all we need is a scalpel?

I never stated that mixed builds are not a problem now did I? I specifically use my 83 point mixed build alpha atlas all the time as an example.

RestosIII, on 22 October 2016 - 11:26 PM, said:

But yeah, ED punishes players for daring to have loadouts that aren't going to fire in sets of 30 damage each. Which is stupid.

He's gonna act like a little kid every time I quote him but I need to make a point. ED doesn't punish players in the sense he is talking about. You can easily have a high alpha mech but what ED will do is put your rate of fire in check. maybe its not profitable to fire 50 or 40 points at a time.

Saying that its stupid without even understanding what your criticizing is worse then stupid.

What I did say is that players who where always careful about builds and where aware of their weapon systems and heat, are gonna be the ones that where not bothered by GH or ED.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 22 October 2016 - 11:36 PM.

[guy0320]

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 October 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

I never stated that mixed builds are not a problem now did I? I specifically use my 83 point mixed build alpha atlas all the time as an example.

You still haven't my question, or the question most of the player base is asking. If mixed builds are not a problem, then why do need ED?

[BLOOD WOLF]

guy0320, on 22 October 2016 - 11:36 PM, said:

You still haven't my question, or the question most of the player base is asking. If mixed builds are not a problem, then why do need ED?

Who said that mixed builds are not a problem? read my above statement. the one where I mention my atlas

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 22 October 2016 - 11:37 PM.

[guy0320]

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 October 2016 - 11:37 PM, said:

Who said that mixed builds are not a problem? read my above statement. the one where I mention my atlas

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 October 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

watch out for these statements.

I never said mixed builds where the devil and needed to be nerfed. So we can stop at the top and clarify because I do not think you know my position.

You did.

Edited by guy0320, 23 October 2016 - 12:14 AM.

[guy0320]

I guess I have BLOOD WOLF in a sticky situation. He can either admit that he hates mixed builds and alphas or that we don't need ED. Which one will it be?

[BearFlag]

For what it's worth, Guy0320, mixed builds are a problem in the context of Ghost Heat 1 IF we assume that GH1 wanted to limit boating and high alpha. A mixed build is how players "get around" the boating limitation in GH1. They can't get a high alpha with one weapon type boated, so they break it up with different types and still get a high alpha. Hence BW's Atlas.

ED is a broader attempt to limit alphas without regard to weapon diversity. I still don't like ED, but it would hamper that second alpha shot...

EDIT: ... on high alpha mechs. The Locust can fire all day without penalty.

Edited by BearFlag, 22 October 2016 - 11:57 PM.

[JediPanther]

ED is here.
http://www.sideshowt...ot-toys-902058/

[Kaptain]

Tuesday has already said it perfectly.



The gameplay is fine. The balance is generally pretty good. Even TTK is OK imo (aside from a pref for old 8v8 instead of new 12v12)... what we need is more stuff to do. More game modes that are not just glorified skirmish. Reasons to care about FW/FP...

Edited by Kaptain, 22 October 2016 - 11:58 PM.

[RestosIII]

Quote

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[guy0320]

BearFlag, on 22 October 2016 - 11:50 PM, said:

For what it's worth, Guy0320, mixed builds are a problem in the context of Ghost Heat 1 IF we assume that GH1 wanted to limit boating and high alpha. A mixed build is how players "get around" the boating limitation in GH1. They can't get a high alpha with one weapon type boated, so they break it up with different types and still get a high alpha. Hence BW's Atlas.

ED is a broader attempt to limit alphas without regard to weapon diversity. I still don't like ED, but it would hamper that second alpha shot...

EDIT: ... on high alpha mechs. The Locust can fire all day without penalty.

True, but high alphas in and of themselves really are not a problem. If an alpha consists of 50 PPFLD and can be repeated without serious heat issues (looking at you Pokebear), that represents a problem in terms of game balance. However, being able to fire an 87 point alpha without a heat penalty does not represent a balance problem if the damage is delivered from weapons ranging in velocity from hit scan to AC20 speed (BW's Atlas) and therefore can't all be put accurately into the target all at once unless you are at point blank range.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Kaptain, on 22 October 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

Tuesday has already said it perfectly.



The gameplay is fine. The balance is generally pretty good. Even TTK is OK imo (aside from a pref for old 8v8 instead of new 12v12)... what we need is more stuff to do. More game modes that are not just glorified skirmish. Reasons to care about FW/FP...

no he didn't

He literally said why are they trying to change how people play the game this late in its life cycle. That's so incredibly laughable, and thats just issue one I had with his video.

"all the feedback being listened to is on russ twitter" which is another misconception and a lie.

Low population to anyone who understands the scientific process or how science is done, it doesn't matter if it is small samples as long as the fundamental mechanics are the same. Hence everyone UAC5 operates like every other UAC5. Unless its different for each person then you will need to account for population size. under the PTS you dont need that.

4v4 and 12v12 make no difference when it comes to balancing weapons or testing ED. you can have 100 mechs and a weapons performance is not affected by the number of mechs. Same goes with the ED mechanic which is contrasted to the mechs weapon systems, outside influences like the number of mechs on the field have no effect.


I can make a more detailed post but fantastic tuesday's video was almsot a fail in my book. He did make some good points to give him some credit.

[BLOOD WOLF]

RestosIII, on 23 October 2016 - 12:05 AM, said:

just gonna keep quoting this guy till he figures out that its useless to block somebody if your just gonna respond. Somebody explain to this guy in a message or something

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 October 2016 - 12:13 AM.

[guy0320]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 12:12 AM, said:

just gonna keep quoting this guy till he figures out that its useless to block somebody if your just gonna respond. Somebody explain to this guy in a message or something

It is just as useless to quote and respond to someone who has blocked you.

Edited by guy0320, 23 October 2016 - 12:21 AM.

[BearFlag]

guy0320, on 23 October 2016 - 12:08 AM, said:

True, but high alphas in and of themselves really are not a problem. If an alpha consists of 50 PPFLD and can be repeated without serious heat issues (looking at you Pokebear), that represents a problem in terms of game balance. However, being able to fire an 87 point alpha without a heat penalty does not represent a balance problem if the damage is delivered from weapons ranging in velocity from hit scan to AC20 speed (BW's Atlas) and therefore can't all be put accurately into the target all at once unless you are at point blank range.

I think PGI views it as a problem. And they've painted themselves into a corner. They can't nerf mechs' hard points without ticking off a customer who bought it as presented. They also seem to think that power creep, instead of character, is the way to sell mechs. TTK drops and old mechs become obsolete (which also ticks off customers who bought a once-viable mech).

The Huntsman fits the bill. A fifty ton mech that out streaks the Streak Crow. It does SSRM 36 or SSRM 32 + Artemis. How do you tell the 40 ton Cicada in Scout Mode that gets one-shotted by a mere 50 ton Huntsman that there's not an alpha problem? Kodiak, maybe, Huntsman, really?

[Snowbluff]

RestosIII, on 22 October 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

'looking for anything that ED does that is beneficial to the game'


Sorry, I found nothing.

so you know how people like to complain about the KDK3? All of those complaints will disappear because it won't be all to spam Dakka as much or PPLFD 50 damage without a huge penalty. :0

[BLOOD WOLF]

guy0320, on 23 October 2016 - 12:20 AM, said:

It is just as useless to quote and respond to someone who has blocked you.

I didn't block him now did I? so what if i want to quote him for context? I dont respond to him directly, I just want to take what he said and use that for clarification on my post. do me a favor and send him a message for me to stop responding, and stop acting childish. These are grown people forums.

now back to what you said and your quotes of me. Under the conditions they are now, mixed builds can get around GH, with extreme alphas. Forget my atlas, Dual UAC 10 and 5 Kodiaks demonstrate that easily.

saying mixed builds are the "devil and need to be nerfed are your words not mine. The build on my atlas would be fine as a mixed build but being able to put that 80 points for almost nothing(well 60% heat), puts the Kodiak to shame.

[RestosIII]

guy0320, on 23 October 2016 - 12:20 AM, said:

It is just as useless to quote and respond to someone who has blocked you.

I enjoy guessing what sort of things he's calling me, and finding fitting images in return. Fun fit for the whole family.

Snowbluff, on 23 October 2016 - 12:25 AM, said:

so you know how people like to complain about the KDK3? All of those complaints will disappear because it won't be all to spam Dakka as much or PPLFD 50 damage without a huge penalty. :0

Except the KDK-3 Dakka is still perfectly fine with ED. Plus going over the ED limit with Guass is laughable. So it doesn't even fix that "problem".

Edited by RestosIII, 23 October 2016 - 12:35 AM.

[guy0320]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

saying mixed builds are the "devil and need to be nerfed are your words not mine. The build on my atlas would be fine as a mixed build but being able to put that 80 points for almost nothing(well 60% heat), puts the Kodiak to shame.

You asked me to name who said that mixed builds were not a problem. Your dismal of my stating that you thought that mixed builds needed to be nerfed was a clear example of you stating that mixed builds were not a problem. If you cannot put two and two together to see that, then I can understand why Restosll blocked you.

See below for why your atlas's 87 point no penaly alpha isn't actually a problem.

guy0320, on 23 October 2016 - 12:08 AM, said:

True, but high alphas in and of themselves really are not a problem. If an alpha consists of 50 PPFLD and can be repeated without serious heat issues (looking at you Pokebear), that represents a problem in terms of game balance. However, being able to fire an 87 point alpha without a heat penalty does not represent a balance problem if the damage is delivered from weapons ranging in velocity from hit scan to AC20 speed (BW's Atlas) and therefore can't all be put accurately into the target all at once unless you are at point blank range.