338 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

MedivalJ, on 26 October 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

If the issue is the Kodiak, why not just release the Annihilator to balance it out?

Okay, so, I love the Annihilator, but the Kodiak is better than it (gameplay-wise) in literally every way. It's slower than the Kodiak, has a bigger profile, has lower weapon mounts, has a much less forgiving body for torso twisting, and wouldn't even be able to use some of its best builds (quad gauss) due to mechanics PGI has put in place.

[Dee Eight]

UnofficialOperator, on 26 October 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

@Zergling, again anecdotal evidence and proves my point further why bad logic prevails here. I've only played assaults as a returning player 3 months ago. Anyone spending massive amounts of time on only a weight class would get good enough. I've only played other weight classes for events.

Exactly... if I only played my ARC-5W exclusively for november, I could be waving a Tier 1 symbol for all the ******* to see and driving up its w/l and k/d ratios. I could also do the same with my KDK-2 though, or one of my cheetahs, or any other mech I own that turns in solid results and wins more often than not. But I own a lot of mechs, and many still need skill leveling to be done to them, so I don't just chase stats in one mech.

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Look at @Mcgral18 & @Mawai comparing an outlier KDK vs an LRM Archer? How illogical and embarrassing is that?

Its actually a hybrid archer... 5xLRM5 w/10 tons, 4xSRM4 w/6tons, 300XL, 12DHS, BAP. I run the Adv sensor range and target decay, and the LRM5 range and cooldown modules. The game this morning with the 4 kills 2 assists 1117 damage I ran out the LRM bins and used up about half the SRMs. The game this evening with the 7 kills 3 assists 1049 damage went the other way... emptied the SRM bins and had about 2 tons of LRMs left. This was fortunate as the last kill in that game was a Viper who'd shot his own ammo dry and I'd already blown off his energy weapons and a leg with my SRMs. So I was able to open up the distance and then turn and lurm him. The team would have won still on kills (it was 11 to 10, we had that zero pinger still at the drop zone) but that would have taken waiting until the clock ran out in another 4 mins.

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PS: And its really funny how so many have dodged the points I made. Should we nerf light mechs now? 50 WLR and related KDR is really OP and ridiculous. Nerf all light mechs now.

I thought bandito made the point in the title...yes...he has been extremely lucky. My very first game ever in a cheetah (the champ trial one with the 6 SPLs) I managed 4 kills and 800ish damage. Is that the mech, or was it me being lucky (and having just used the same tactics I do with shadow cats and vipers and lynx...repeatedly jump over targets and backshoot them.

[MedivalJ]

RestosIII, on 26 October 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

Okay, so, I love the Annihilator, but the Kodiak is better than it (gameplay-wise) in literally every way. It's slower than the Kodiak, has a bigger profile, has lower weapon mounts, has a much less forgiving body for torso twisting, and wouldn't even be able to use some of its best builds (quad gauss) due to mechanics PGI has put in place.

I actually addressed some of this in the last comment and while I know it's slow, it mounts relatively the same arsenal. However, the Annihilator in and of itself is mostly a suggestion. As I stated before, if you know of a better mech which can stand against a kodiak I would like to know, so I can start endorsing it instead.

Edited by MedivalJ, 26 October 2016 - 05:48 PM.

[Koniving]

Miodog, on 24 October 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

Instead of nerfing the KDK-3 why not make all Mechs viable?

[BCAW]

MedivalJ, on 26 October 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

First, it was a question, not an insult. Leave your snarky ******** somewhere else or don't bother commenting... Second, the Annihilator has the capacity for the same variants as the KDK-3. Its slower and possesses slightly less armor. However, if used in conjunction with a team it can stand as a reasonable counterweight to the Kodiak without having to mess with everyone's settings...

So it would be like a direwolf then. The direwolf is nowhere near the KDK-3's level right now, and it has Clan tech. What makes you think the Annihilator would be able to "balance out" the KDK-3?

[Dee Eight]

LT. HARDCASE, on 26 October 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

Bandito is playing in solely high tier matches, so comparing him to your run against T4 and T5 players holds absolutely zero weight.

Actually unless he's group dropping exclusively with T1s on his friends list...he's not. We already know that the MM will put T1s thru T4s together in a game. I have three end screen caps from when I was solidly in the middle of T4dom in August matched up with T1s. In T3 I see as many 1s as I do 5s.

BCAW, on 26 October 2016 - 05:59 PM, said:

So it would be like a direwolf then. The direwolf is nowhere near the KDK-3's level right now, and it has Clan tech. What makes you think the Annihilator would be able to "balance out" the KDK-3?

its the four ballistic mounts capable of taking AC10s maybe and 4 energy mounts. The problem is that the mech is in its main variants...as slow as a urbie.

[BCAW]

MedivalJ, on 26 October 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

First, who said anything about not making it the most powerful mech in the game? I'm proposing a solution which would give it an equal on the battlefield that doesn't involve messing with its settings... Also, this can be dealt with by adjusting the weapons themselves, instead of mechs.

Second, the Annihilator has a low cap sure as it's not supposed to be fast. It has an armament complement of 4 LBX-AC-10s (KDK-3 Dakka) and 4 MPLs. I think of it like the IS version of a Dire Wolf. If you have a better suggestion for an IS mech which would possess the capacity to defeat a Kodiak one-on-one, I'd would like to know so i can start endorsing it.

What the KDK-3 need is to have its "settings" messed with for the sake of balance. And you just compared LB-10s to UAC-10s. Not even close.

And if you want to nerf weapons, I'd somewhat agree. I personally feel that the UAC-10 is a bit too strong right now. Being able to put out 20 points of damage at 500 meters from a single weapon is a pretty big deal, and you can fire two of them simultaneously without triggering ghost heat. And the short cooldown of 2.5 seconds at base is quite ridiculous, especially when you take into account that the UAC20 has a 4 second cooldown and effective range of 350 meters. Were it up to me, I'd nerf the effective range of UAC-10s down to, say, 475 meters, and nerf the cooldown to 3 seconds.

Edited by BCAW, 26 October 2016 - 06:10 PM.

[Mcgral18]

UnofficialOperator, on 26 October 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

Look at so many people replying with so much flawed logic is why I wasn't bothered to reply past 2 days. Really waste time and proves my point again and again:

@Zergling, again anecdotal evidence and proves my point further why bad logic prevails here. I've only played assaults as a returning player 3 months ago. Anyone spending massive amounts of time on only a weight class would get good enough. I've only played other weight classes for events. If I spend time building up only a light weight chassis i.e ach or firestarter, it will also show a high outlier result. Does anyone remember a very famous elite pilot with high WLR and KDR in firestarter? Should we nerf that too? It proves my point that we should use everyone's KDK data and weight the performance as a 100 tonner and not based on anecdotal evidence from vocal elitist players.

Look at @Mcgral18 & @Mawai comparing an outlier KDK vs an LRM Archer? How illogical and embarrassing is that? Look at the weight class... It really shows that good computer game players who are good at placing mouse pointer to target are not necessarily the best/most logical at balancing a game. At least compare apples to oranges. Not sure how you guys going to do that with the data that everyone doesn't have

PS: And its really funny how so many have dodged the points I made. No one can see the disparity in OP's original picture showing 3 KDKs but 2 dealing 300 damage? And also should we nerf light mechs now? 50 WLR and related KDR is really OP and ridiculous. Nerf all light mechs now.

oh my god...


Do we bother trying to communicate with it?


Also, we have addressed your points:
Don't balance by Potato

Bads who use good robots are still Bads.

Average Light stats? In my case, less than half my typical Kodiak stats, rarely coming anywhere near.
And I've barely played the Cheeto Prime since the GodQuirks were removed, so those stats are with an incredibly powerful Light, but inferior to the Kodiak (which are mostly, 3/4, post nerf)




We aren't comparing the LRM boat, BTW, someone else was.


Potato's...

[Dee Eight]

I wonder what will happen when the hero direwhale arrives and people start going out with octuple UAC/2s.

[Mcgral18]

Dee Eight, on 26 October 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

I wonder what will happen when the hero direwhale arrives and people start going out with octuple UAC/2s.

lol AC2s

That will be my reaction

Sword and Boarding UAC5s is the alternative

[RestosIII]

Dee Eight, on 26 October 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

I wonder what will happen when the hero direwhale arrives and people start going out with octuple UAC/2s.

Even better: Bane with 10 AC/2's and 4 MGs. Or 8 LRM 15's with 16 tons of ammo. If you really want power creep, that is where you go.

[Zergling]

UnofficialOperator, on 26 October 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

Look at so many people replying with so much flawed logic is why I wasn't bothered to reply past 2 days. Really waste time and proves my point again and again:

It is not flawed simply because you disagree with it.

UnofficialOperator, on 26 October 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

@Zergling, again anecdotal evidence and proves my point further why bad logic prevails here. I've only played assaults as a returning player 3 months ago. Anyone spending massive amounts of time on only a weight class would get good enough. I've only played other weight classes for events. If I spend time building up only a light weight chassis i.e ach or firestarter, it will also show a high outlier result. Does anyone remember a very famous elite pilot with high WLR and KDR in firestarter? Should we nerf that too? It proves my point that we should use everyone's KDK data and weight the performance as a 100 tonner and not based on anecdotal evidence from vocal elitist players.

Actually, it demonstrates amply that you are an average player being boosted far above your skill level because of an overpowered mech.

If you want prove that your assault weight class stats are not because of the KDK-3, then show your stats in other mechs, as El Bandito and others have done.

UnofficialOperator, on 26 October 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

Look at @Mcgral18 & @Mawai comparing an outlier KDK vs an LRM Archer? How illogical and embarrassing is that? Look at the weight class... It really shows that good computer game players who are good at placing mouse pointer to target are not necessarily the best/most logical at balancing a game. At least compare apples to oranges. Not sure how you guys going to do that with the data that everyone doesn't have

They aren't the posters comparing it, genius. It was Dee Eight that bought that up. You are literally casting judgement based on something another poster said.

UnofficialOperator, on 26 October 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

PS: And its really funny how so many have dodged the points I made. No one can see the disparity in OP's original picture showing 3 KDKs but 2 dealing 300 damage?

That's because you don't have a point. It is completely moronic to judge a mech based on the performance of random players seen in a single battle.

UnofficialOperator, on 26 October 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

And also should we nerf light mechs now? 50 WLR and related KDR is really OP and ridiculous. Nerf all light mechs now.

You are selecting a single data point to support your argument, a fallacy termed 'cherry picking'. It is not worth refutation as a result.

If you want people to positively respond to your posts, you need to make intelligent arguments.

Edited by Zergling, 26 October 2016 - 06:26 PM.

[BCAW]

Dee Eight, on 26 October 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

I wonder what will happen when the hero direwhale arrives and people start going out with octuple UAC/2s.

It'll still be a direwhale. Slow and terrible torso twisting capability. Easy picking unless in an extremely coordinated group that actually supports it well, as in providing ECM cover, providing anti-light screening force, sharing armor and focus firing.

[Zergling]

Dee Eight, on 26 October 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

I thought bandito made the point in the title...yes...he has been extremely lucky.

No, 55 battles in MWO is a statistically significant sample. The probability of luck having an influence on El Bandito's score after that many battles is extremely low, and practically impossible for it to produce such a deviation from his performance in other 'best' mechs.

And don't forget McGral18's stats; he has 415 battles in his KDK-3, and it is absolutely impossible for him to be so lucky that he's performing well above other 'best' mechs in the game after that many battles.

[MedivalJ]

BCAW, on 26 October 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

And you just compared LB-10s to UAC-10s. Not even close.

So what... Both are used on KDK-3's...

Quote

And if you want to nerf weapons, I'd somewhat agree. I personally feel that the UAC-10 is a bit too strong right now. Being able to put out 20 points of damage at 500 meters from a single weapon is a pretty big deal, and you can fire two of them simultaneously without triggering ghost heat. And the short cooldown of 2.5 seconds at base is quite ridiculous, especially when you take into account that the UAC20 has a 4 second cooldown and effective range of 350 meters. Were it up to me, I'd nerf the effective range of UAC-10s down to, say, 475 meters, and nerf the cooldown to 3 seconds.

I don't want to change anything. I want to view solutions which involve changing the fewest setting as possible. In terms of mechs, I'm trying to propose for something in IS which would stand an good chance against a Kodiak. In terms of weapons, the largest complaint, I've seen at least, is that the LBx, or UACs, used on the KDK-3 are too powerful. If any changes are needed I would think the weapons are the place to do it. But for all weapons... Not just that mech... As for Ghost heat the system doesn't make sense as it magically and drastically increases the heat on ones mech should the player equip "to many" of a certain type of weapon. A standardized heat index would be a better solution in my opinion. Let players built to what they feel appropriate.

Edited by MedivalJ, 26 October 2016 - 06:55 PM.

[Zergling]

MedivalJ, on 26 October 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:

I want to view solutions which involve changing the fewest setting as possible.

That would mean nerfing the KDK-3. It is the performance outlier, and nerfing it is considerably simpler than introducing new mechs to compete with it and/or buffing other mechs up to a similar level of performance.

The weapons aren't the problem either; nerfing UAC5/10s further will hurt other mechs that use them, which aren't overperforming.
It also won't do anything for the Gauss/ER PPC pokebears.

Edited by Zergling, 26 October 2016 - 06:38 PM.

[Mcgral18]

MedivalJ, on 26 October 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:

So what... Both are used on KDK-3's...


I don't want to change anything. I want to view solutions which involve changing the fewest setting as possible. In terms of mechs, I'm trying to propose for something in IS which would stand an good chance against a Kodiak. In terms of weapons, the largest complaint, I've seen at least, is that the LBx, or UACs, used on the KDK-3 are too powerful. If any changes are needed I would think the weapons are the place to do it. But for all weapons... Not just that mech... As for Ghost heat the system doesn't make sense as it magically and drastically increases the heat on ones mech the player equips "to many" of a certain type of weapon. A standardized heat index would be a better solution in my opinion. Let players built to what they feel appropriate.

A single UAC10 is not an issue
A pair is a viable weapon system


Nerfing those is not the problem, and doesn't affect the strongest mech build in the game: The PokeBear

That's with Gauss Rifles and PPCs

[MedivalJ]

Zergling, on 26 October 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

That would mean nerfing the KDK-3. It is the performance outlier, and nerfing it is considerably simpler than introducing new mechs to compete with it and/or buffing other mechs up to a similar level of performance.

The weapons aren't the problem either; nerfing UAC5/10s further will hurt other mechs that use them, which aren't overperforming.
It also won't do anything for the Gauss/ER PPC pokebears.

Why are they at such a low performance in the first place...

Mcgral18, on 26 October 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

A single UAC10 is not an issue
A pair is a viable weapon system


Nerfing those is not the problem, and doesn't affect the strongest mech build in the game: The PokeBear

That's with Gauss Rifles and PPCs

Missed the point entirely...

Edited by MedivalJ, 26 October 2016 - 06:48 PM.

[l3elthaz0r]

I think we should introduce a new weapon like a NARC called a jamming missile or something. Latch it onto a mech and a mech temporarily cannot draw from ammo storage, having to shut down for about 1 sec to disable the jamming. Make this take up an actual missile port like NARC and you'll only see lights using it.

[Mcgral18]

MedivalJ, on 26 October 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

Missed the point entirely...

That Ghost Heat Mk3 would be any better than its predecessors?