171 replies to this topic

[Wil McCullough]

Kroete, on 27 October 2016 - 07:20 AM, said:

Meta is a boring *****, using lrms are more challenging with all that counters.

if lurms were as good as any other weapon, then you wouldn't have that challenge now, would you! =D

[Jehofi]

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

but i haven't been ignoring any of your arguments. i've been systematically picking them apart.

Sorry but no. All you have done is, maybe systematically, misunderstand, or actually fail to understand.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

i wasn't trying to antagonize anyone. i have no idea why you feel that way. maybe try taking things less personally in a cyber disagreement? *shrugs*

Because saying: "Your playstyle is bad, you are a bad team player and thus should feel bad" is just that. And i dont take it personal, this is again one you your prominent mistakes. I do not need to take it personal to try an correct something.

Sorry this just shows how much you do not understand what i try to explain to you.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

i point out weak arguments when i see them in a debate.

Nice, but maybe try to not ignore the important ones.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

you could try to chuck around terminology while also committing an ad hominem (insinuating that i'm playing a game) but that doesn't change the fact that your arguments are weak.

I see, we will get nowhere here. Sorry if you refuse to listen this does not make any sense.

There are no weak arguments im stating, after all you were not able to debunk a single one. All you did was, misinterpreting and claiming straw mans.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

so what's the story now?

Irrelevant, as im saying for like 5 posts now. Every situation can be construed and show that something is better in this case. Dont you get that such discussion is futile.

What matters are standard situations, situations that happen often. But we are not even there, before you must understand that your perception will be biased if you think lurm players are mostly bad.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

no. you're twisting and adding criteria to the argument in order to give yourself something to stand on. because your original argument sucks and you know it. that is practically the definition of a straw man.

From Wikipedia:
"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent."

Explaining and expanding on my argument, doe not make it a straw man.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

lurms ARE pretty bad. i would actually like to see them get bloody buffed.

Sure, would be nice to buff travel time and rework/balance the spread.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

can players use them and still be effective? sure. but the same player could become more effective with almost any other weapon.

No because their playstyle is pretty unique. What (i think) you mean is that there are better mech-builds for that tonnage when looking at DPS an thus stuff. But i already said killing power (aka instant pinpoint damage) is not the focus of LRMS nothing beats lasers in that and that is a nice design parameter.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

in SOME situations, lurms would be the go-to weapon of choice, but those situations aren't very common. mainly because to use lurms to their greatest effect, you need a lot of skill, voice com and organised play. things that joe blow down the street doesn't have, or even bothers about in his group or quick play matches.

In not very skilled & play mostly alone. If you know the weapon you know how to apply yourself. Playing lazor mech i often moan about the stupid movement of my teammates that have no regard for firing lines or zones of fire, so i lose efficiency there just as much as i lose when there are no locks available.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

it's one thing to have fun in a less than meta mech/weapon. but it's another thing to claim that you're not giving yourself a disadvantage by running that weap/mech. hell, i main a splat dog and love it to bits, but you don't see me running around white-knighting that there's nothing wrong with its ct from the side.

goddamn thing looks like adam driver's nose.

Again we can talk weapon balance as soon as you understand that players have different qualities which make them suitable for different playstyles (i could never be a "sniper" like OP). Which in turn means that, while LRM are not top tier meta they are still quite effective. A bad build or bad player ruins any weapon. A good player can use his weapon efficiently. Yes laser is meta because it is "simply" point an shoot and that is what most people can do quite well (that is ofc not the only reason). Thinking about your position relative to the enemy and the terrain in between is a tad more complicated.

That last part was quite constructive, thx.

Edited by Jehofi, 27 October 2016 - 07:39 AM.

[Black Phoebe]

In the end the decision if you should bring lurms or not boils down to your w/l ratio.

The MDD is the 3rd best Mech i have (regarding to the w/l ratio), and the best among my Heavies. I literally put my team at a disadvantage everytime i pilot something else. However i ran a meta build once in while... for diversity.

[Wil McCullough]

Jehofi, on 27 October 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

Because saying: "Your playstyle is bad, you are a bad team player and thus should feel bad" is just that.

??? when have i said something to this effect? though i MUST say, if a lurmer's playstyle is to sit 900m away from the fight in a ditch alone while bitching about locks... yes. that guy's playstyle IS bad and he IS a bad team player.

Quote

Every situation can be construed and show that something is better in this case.

the other gentleman was quite clear in the situation he brought up. enemy close enough to death that one lurm salvo could kill him and running away. my mech is unable to attack for some reason, heat, distance etc.

while we were debating that, you butted in with your lecture about being point blank and having to shoot "under armpits" and what not. you change the ENTIRE scenario to fit your narrative. if that isn't a straw man, what is?

Quote

What matters are standard situations, situations that happen often. But we are not even there, before you must understand that your perception will be biased if you think lurm players are mostly bad.

standard situations. exactly. the average "standard" lurmer you see in pugs ARE bad. they're bad because the weapon needs more skill than they have in them to perform well. that combination of mediocre pilot in a mech with weapons that need better than mediocre skill to use =bad. bad because they pick the weapon thinking it allows them to hide safely, kilometers away from fights while still contributing. effective lurm usage doesn't work that way.

unfortunately, that is the "standard" lurmer you find in games. they don't know what dumbfire is, they don't know when and why lrm20s are worse than its smaller brothers and when and why it is sometimes better, some don't even know how to chainfire. which is why i said that more often than not, if you see a lurmer, he's going to be a burden on the team. because he's either going to get picked apart by light packs, or not contribute damage in the way his role expects.

Quote

No because their playstyle is pretty unique.

unique-ness is no factor for effectiveness. i actually think lurms are just long range streaks. fun to use, but basically just sandblasts the target. in a game where ppfld is so optimal, the "death by a thousand cuts" approach doesn't get a chance to shine more often than not.

Quote

If you know the weapon you know how to apply yourself.

yup, definitely. but it still doesn't mean the weapon isn't meh. it's like poker. if you go into a hand with 7 10 os, you're there to outplay or outflop your opponent(s). you're not there to see if the strength of your hand holds up. same thing with lurms.

i do have to say i'm understanding you a lot better now. this debate has been enlightening!

Edited by Wil McCullough, 27 October 2016 - 08:05 AM.

[DJ Mitchell]

I assume this discussion is about the use of lrms in quick play. So I would like to point one more thing out.

Quick play is for having fun and testing around for "serious gaming" there is a competive scene and league play.

So let people bring whatever they think could work for them to QP...that's what its therefore.

And for those who think:"But people should be more efficient...and so"... See it that way. You´re the commander of some backwater planet's militia, everything you got is some run down old chassis, a modified lrm Orion , a frail Shadowhawk someone glued 2 new uac5s in ,but the thing has an old standart engine and so on. You can´t change it , and have to deal with the situation with what you´ve got...so make the best out of it.

Edited by DJ Mitchell, 27 October 2016 - 08:05 AM.

[Kroete]

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 07:29 AM, said:

if lurms were as good as any other weapon, then you wouldn't have that challenge now, would you! =D

But removing magic-jesus maked the metawhores drow the devs in the pts and it gets removed.
Do you remember where they increased the travelspeed a little bit and needed to redo it to not bring umus because of all the tears from the tryhards?

They should remake some points of lrms,
but until magic-jesus and his radar-crutch is revamped,
its nearly pointless.
You cant balance a weapon that has a hardcounter in a pug enviroment,
the solution is making ecm a softcounter and tone down the radarcrutch as a start.

Balance for lrms you will have, when at least 50% of all mechs mount ams.

Edited by Kroete, 27 October 2016 - 08:32 AM.

[Albino Boo]

DJ Mitchell, on 27 October 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

I assume this discussion is about the use of lrms in quick play. So I would like to point one more thing out.

Quick play is for having fun and testing around for "serious gaming" there is a competive scene and league play.

So let people bring whatever they think could work for them to QP...that's what its therefore.

And for those who think:"But people should be more efficient...and so"... See it that way. You´re the commander of some backwater planet's militia, everything you got is some run down old chassis, a modified lrm Orion , a frail Shadowhawk someone glued 2 new uac5s in ,but the thing has an old standart engine and so on. You can´t change it , and have to deal with the situation with what you´ve got...so make the best out of it.

If you sign up to play a team game dont be surprised when the other 11 players on your team get annoyed if you limit their desire to win by doing what you want. There are 1000s of single player games out there where you can do what you want without impacting other people. The reality is if you do what you want and run a hiding lrm boat you are limiting other peoples fun. The world does not revole around your desires.

[Lyoto Machida]

Clownwarlord, on 27 October 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

I usually do not have an issue with lrm mechs and people playing them, what I do have an issue with is this scenario:

I am piloting my medium, heavy, or whatever and I am doing what I can to do damage. That could be peaking around a corner, hopping to drop off an alpha, circling to the right (NASCAR) as fast as I can to pick off lone mechs in the rear. But I do whatever I can to do damage and get kills. Then half way into the match or toward the end I get a player in chat or voip saying, "WTF where are my locks. This is why we are losing, no one can hold a damn lock."

I look at my armor if I am still alive and see something like 39% nothing on CT bright orange, missing an arm, two open legs in yellow, and maybe even more damage. Then I look at the player sitting back behind me about 300 to 400 meters away in an assault mech (happens to be the player complaining about the team not getting locks). I ghost over his mech with my cursor or cross hairs and see ... 96% armor Stalker or 98% Awesome loaded with missile pods ... .

Yeah this pisses me off. If you are going to ask for locks, ask early and don't ***** when they don't come because some times THERE IS NOT A DAMN THING YOUR TEAM CAN DO FOR YOU!!! Why? Because ECM, Radar Derp, AMS, UAV gets shot down, no tag, no narc, and maybe the enemy is just behind cover and if I leave my little cover to spot for you I die.

So again, ask early, ask nicely, and no b*****ing betty about not getting them later in the match.

That is my opinion and not saying everyone complains about it, but when it does it is annoying and is the only reason why I hate lrm mechs and pilots. It is the ONLY reason why. I also "R" my target every time, why because even though I am not a lrm mech I liek to know the weak points in my enemy.

How exactly are you seeing friendly teammate loadouts mid match by hovering over them with your crosshairs?

Albino Boo, on 27 October 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

If you sign up to play a team game dont be surprised when the other 11 players on your team get annoyed if you limit their desire to win by doing what you want. There are 1000s of single player games out there where you can do what you want without impacting other people. The reality is if you do what you want and run a hiding lrm boat you are limiting other peoples fun. The world does not revole around your desires.

If you feel he's griefing and ruining your game so much by bringing LRMs, then report him and move on. Otherwise, you should probably keep your mouth shut about what other people bring to a QP match.

[Rakshasa]

I try to hold locks for LRM mechs, and I encourage others to do the same - they might not be a 'meta-approved' weapon, but they can still turn a match if used well. UAV's are excellent spotters for LRM barrages, especially if the enemy team doesn't notice you've popped one above their heads.

[The Lobsters]

I was going to say something about any lurmer worth their salt uses tag and artemis which both require LOS, but I see this thread is going the way of every other LRM thread.

[0111101]

Here's an example scenario which illustrates the drawbacks of LRMing:

Your opponent steps out from behind his favorite rock and alpha strikes you from a distance of 500 meters. You lock on and fire your LRMs at him, observing their slow ascent towards the target when you notice something out of place. Your mechanics snuck into your mechlab last night and replaced your LRMs with hamburger patties. Your opponent sees this and his shrill laughter echoes across the tourmaline rock formations as your hamburgers flop desperately through the open air. You take a moment to reconsider the life choices which have led you to this point as your opponent alpha strikes you again. Your XL engine side torso, like your frail psyche, has been laid bare.

Realizing your irresponsibility as your opponent's favorite pet rock opens its maw, the hamburger patties scream in terror as they begin their descent. Their screaming sends you over the edge, intertwining with your opponent's ceaseless, mocking laughter from behind his pet rock until every patty has been snapped up. Sated by your unwitting sacrifice, the pet rock's maw begins to change. As you succumb to the smoke pouring into your cockpit from the damage your engine has sustained, your consciousness fades and a portal to another dimension opens -- the Burger King himself emerges from it. The King strides over to you, gazes into your dying eyes and whispers, "I care not from whence the hamburger comes, only that it does. Send Ronald my regards in the afterlife." Your opponent comes out of hiding, takes a wide angle out of respect for the King's rear armor and delivers the coup de grâce.

Your final thoughts are with your team, whom you wish you had used as living shields to procure your locks and die in your stead. Their deaths at the hands of the Burger King will be slow and painful, but you pay those fleeting thoughts no mind as the lasers wash over you. Your engine goes critical, turning everything a brilliant white. Peace at last.

Edited by 0111101, 27 October 2016 - 11:53 AM.

[MW222]

The6thMessenger, on 26 October 2016 - 04:36 AM, said:

I have a brother here and we play on QP sometimes, and whenever i play with lurms i say "Get locks and ill bring lurms. Retain locks so i can lurm the lights out." After all, it is hard to hit lights generally, and homing weapons really help.

I'm not a boat, im a 2x ERLL + 4x LRM5 BlackJack Fire Support, and i cycle between the two weapons. I am aware that LRMs are for support, I do get my own locks, i move around and get closer, optimal range is 600m for me -- i have ERLLs to fall back on. Yes it's hot, but i don't have to use both at the same time, unless it needs to die really quickly or in cold-maps, or when I'm far away and have time to cool-off.

But certainly, if i were to support them i'm gonna need their locks to send help -- lurms. If there's pesky fast lights that needs death or legging, i can lurm them closer to it since it's generally hard to hit them anyways.

It's like assaults asking the team not to nascar to not get left behind, yeah sure your mech is your responsibility, all that weight is all yours, but its generally in the team's best interest to keep the assault alive, so he can use the armor and fire power for good.

Likewise, the team with some members having LRMs, it's in their best interest to hold locks so they can support them best. He says it's begging for locks and therefore annoying, i say it's asking for teamwork, and informing my team how can i support them best, not to endanger themselves for locks. Heck, i'll do the same, and inform them that i have Tag and/or narc if i have one.

Ding! DinG! DING! we have a winner!

[C E Dwyer]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 October 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

I do hold locks (i.e. target enemies) when appropriate in order to get targeting info etc. However ill be damned if im going to stand there in the open holding lock on some guy while getting shot in the face just so someone behind me can lob missiles at him. You can only lock what you can see, and if you can see them, they can see you.

Don't expect people to get shredded just so they can hold locks.

This basically says it all.

I've no issue with people using lurms and they can be handy in your team, but if people are going to use them, learn to use them properly

[Albino Boo]

Lyoto Machida, on 27 October 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

If you feel he's griefing and ruining your game so much by bringing LRMs, then report him and move on. Otherwise, you should probably keep your mouth shut about what other people bring to a QP match.

You have entirely missed the point that your personal fun comes at the expense of others. If you want to make the rest of team less likely to win by using lrms do not expect the rest of the team to like it. Standing at the back, not sharing your armor whilst asking everybody else to be your personal meatshield is going to get a negative response from people and if you dont like that dont ask people to hold locks.

[Galenit]

Albino Boo, on 27 October 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

You have entirely missed the point that your personal fun comes at the expense of others. If you want to make the rest of team less likely to win by using lrms do not expect the rest of the team to like it. Standing at the back, not sharing your armor whilst asking everybody else to be your personal meatshield is going to get a negative response from people and if you dont like that dont ask people to hold locks.

If you want to know your teammates loadout, play groups.
If you want to dictate the loadout of your teammates make a group and try to find some followers who will obey.

If you play pug, you have to take what you get and make the best out of it.
If you dont lock, you make the rest of the team less likely to win.

[JC Daxion]

and here i am just hoping people hold locks long enough so i can get info gathering to know a load out, or see where mechs are on the field.


As for LRM's,... What pisses me off more, is when i hold locks and the rain never comes.. despite LRM's being on the team...


and i know, the nerve of a slow assault asking not to be totally left behind, just because the team wants to rush to the other teams spawn point and then fight by basically switching sides..

[Piney II]

When I bring in a LRM boat, I fully expect the team to hold locks for me to point of death.

There is no higher honor than to die for me while I loose the steel rain upon the mongrel enemy from the very back lines of our valiant team.





When I take an LRM boat, I don't expect anyone to hold locks. Pressing R when you see an enemy is nice, though.

I prefer to follow the fight and engage LOS.....shoot and scoot.

Edited by Piney, 27 October 2016 - 03:05 PM.

[MW222]

Albino Boo, on 27 October 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

You have entirely missed the point that your personal fun comes at the expense of others. If you want to make the rest of team less likely to win by using lrms do not expect the rest of the team to like it. Standing at the back, not sharing your armor whilst asking everybody else to be your personal meatshield is going to get a negative response from people and if you dont like that dont ask people to hold locks.

SO anyone running an assault mech needs to adjust their play to suit you and your needs? To be a meat shield for you? Because that's the mandatory and accepted MWO way. The fact that most assaults get run away from by the rest of their team and left to the wolves? You think that may have some bearing on their play? Also because they are running an assault (s) which you seem to disdain, your current rankings being assault 9478, heavy 7769, medium 126, light 5763. You play a good medium mech, however when you can do as well in an ASSAULT and with LRMs then come back and we may listen. Other wise have a cookie and get over it.

Edited by MW222, 27 October 2016 - 07:09 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

MW222, on 27 October 2016 - 07:02 PM, said:

SO anyone running an assault mech needs to adjust their play to suit you and your needs? To be a meat shield for you? Because that's the mandatory and accepted MWO way. The fact that most assaults get run away from by the rest of their team and left to the wolves? You think that may have some bearing on their play? Also because they are running an assault (s) which you seem to disdain, your current rankings being assault 9478, heavy 7769, medium 126, light 5763. You play a good medium mech, however when you can do as well in an ASSAULT and with LRMs then come back and we may listen. Other wise have a cookie and get over it.

i personally think everyone should bring whatever they enjoy playing the most. it could be optimal or sub-optimal, good or bad.

that being said, players however also need to recognize that they ARE compromising effectiveness for fun. holding their hands over their ears and going "LALALALALA CANT HEAR YOU" when confronted by that feedback doesn't achieve anything.

[Albino Boo]

Galenit, on 27 October 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

If you want to know your teammates loadout, play groups.
If you want to dictate the loadout of your teammates make a group and try to find some followers who will obey.

If you play pug, you have to take what you get and make the best out of it.
If you dont lock, you make the rest of the team less likely to win.

Translation: I want play a lrm boat regardless that playing a lrm impacts the enjoyment of everyone else.

MW222, on 27 October 2016 - 07:02 PM, said:

SO anyone running an assault mech needs to adjust their play to suit you and your needs? To be a meat shield for you? Because that's the mandatory and accepted MWO way. The fact that most assaults get run away from by the rest of their team and left to the wolves? You think that may have some bearing on their play? Also because they are running an assault (s) which you seem to disdain, your current rankings being assault 9478, heavy 7769, medium 126, light 5763. You play a good medium mech, however when you can do as well in an ASSAULT and with LRMs then come back and we may listen. Other wise have a cookie and get over it.

Only bad assaults get left behind. If you stand stand still in your 54 KPH assaults firing lrms/er ppcs while the other teams moves your flank dont be surprised when you die. If you are pro active, pay attention to the mini map and dont expect other mechs to tank fire for your 100 ton lrm boat, then you dont get left behind. There is a reason why I have a positive win/loss ratio on my assault mechs