171 replies to this topic

[Dee Eight]

The6thMessenger, on 26 October 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

But it's not about you, it's about the team. It's not about personal stats, it's about being able to support the team.

Two games today... I think I supported the team since I'm the one who secured the wins. The first one earned me

Edited by Dee Eight, 26 October 2016 - 04:38 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Dee Eight, on 26 October 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

Two games today... I think I supported the team since I'm the one who secured the wins. The first one earned me

I don't think you understood my position. I don't care about Lyoto's stats or individual stats, i care about the team, i want to work together.

Lyoto Machida, on 26 October 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

For what it's worth, I'd wager I probably have better LRM stats than most people in this thread (40% and up accuracy) but you'll NEVER catch me asking for locks because it's redundant.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 October 2016 - 04:49 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

The6thMessenger, on 26 October 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

But that's not what i am asking, i am prompting the team of what i can do, of how can i support them best.





Yeah, but they have the capacity for indirect fire, that is the point. They can still contribute while behind cover. It's like extra credit for school, or overtime for work.



But it's not about you, it's about the team. It's not about personal stats, it's about being able to support the team.



Sure i get my own locks, but i can help them even more when they have locks. Sure good players get locks in the first place, automatic, second nature in the game -- but not everyone in QP is good players are they?

No, everyone in QP is not good (or even passable) but if you are really doing this with your loadout in the OP (announcing what you brought), I hope you're doing it with your non-LRM builds as well (since that would also help the team as well).

The reason people in this game are so jaded about people asking for locks is because they've been conditioned to hear that statement and then find the guy saying it 900m in the rear lobbing indirect LRMs and then getting smoked on his own by a light. If you've had your home broken into multiple times and each incident correlated with a visit from a door to door salesman a few hours earlier in the day, you might be wary of door to door salesmen in the future.

The reason I brought up direct fire is because that's generally the most effective way to use them, while actively supporting your team via armor sharing. As others have mentioned, you also get the benefit of TAG and Artemis (though I think Artemis might still be bugged to work with indirect fire LRMs) and short flight times from the reduced distance...250-400m is the sweet spot for LRMs. Lastly, you won't be the LRM boat in the back by themselves getting chewed up by lights and asking for help.

[Dee Eight]

The6thMessenger, on 26 October 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

I don't think you understood my position. I don't care about Lyoto's stats or individual stats, i care about the team, i want to work together.

Well you don't do that by depending on others for locks. You find your own targets and kill them. I never bother to even point out that the R key gives info on where to aim unless the team falls behind AND nobody is even locking stuff they're engaging with direct fire right in front of them.

[The6thMessenger]

Lyoto Machida, on 26 October 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

No, everyone in QP is not good (or even passable) but if you are really doing this with your loadout in the OP (announcing what you brought), I hope you're doing it with your non-LRM builds as well (since that would also help the team as well).

Not every other builds, but those that needs team-work to work best. Like if i brought a brawler, even a 2x AC20 + 2x SRM + 2x ML King-Crab for short-range, i tell my team. If i have 3x AMS + Overload + ECM kitfox, yes i tell them too. But self-sustaining low maintenance builds like 2x ERLL Urbie, or http://mwo.smurfy-ne...24d386de330791a, 2x erppc + 6x ERSL Executioner, i see no need.

If im also an assault, like Direwolf, i also prompt the team to not leave me. Likewise if i see slow assaults in my team, like other direwolves i prompt the team to not nascar.

Lyoto Machida, on 26 October 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

The reason people in this game are so jaded about people asking for locks is because they've been conditioned to hear that statement and then find the guy saying it 900m in the rear lobbing indirect LRMs and then getting smoked on his own by a light. If you've had your home broken into multiple times and each incident correlated with a visit from a door to door salesman a few hours earlier in the day, you might be wary of door to door salesmen in the future.

But i specified that i have 2x ERLLs, i specified that i use that too. You're demonizing me for the gameplay that i specified that i am not doing. Staying back just for the lurms is bad, i agree -- but that's not what i am doing.

Lyoto Machida, on 26 October 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

The reason I brought up direct fire is because that's generally the most effective way to use them, while actively supporting your team via armor sharing. As others have mentioned, you also get the benefit of TAG and Artemis (though I think Artemis might still be bugged to work with indirect fire LRMs) and short flight times from the reduced distance...250-400m is the sweet spot for LRMs. Lastly, you won't be the LRM boat in the back by themselves getting chewed up by lights and asking for help.

But that just seemed that you want me to use LRMs only for direct fire. And as the loadout i pointed out, it's hot. And again, i have 2x ERLL, i specified that i also play as a sniper, 2x ERLL + 4x LRM5s is hardly a boat. If i were to go boat, i'd go 2x ML and better Lurms -- even bring mechs that does this better.

Dee Eight, on 26 October 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

Well you don't do that by depending on others for locks. You find your own targets and kill them. I never bother to even point out that the R key gives info on where to aim unless the team falls behind AND nobody is even locking stuff they're engaging with direct fire right in front of them.

But i'm not a boat, i don't depend on other people's locks. As i have explained, i inform them of how can i support them best.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 October 2016 - 05:10 PM.

[Kael Posavatz]

There are ways to play LRM-boats effectively and act as team-enhancers. The issues are two-fold.

First, many LRM-boats sit in the back where they do not take their share of damage and do not provide the enemy a target to shoot at, thus allowing the enemy to concentrate fire on their teammates (this, by the way, is the reason why 10v12 Clan/IS is a bad idea). In relying on their teammates to get and hold locks, they are requiring their teammates to put themselves in inherently dangerous position (exposed to enemy fire), that the LRM-boat does not feel obligated to share.

Second, many/most pilots do hold locks...for as long as they have them. This is how they know where to shoot on a mech if the armor has been location-stripped, identify priority targets, etc. Asking people to get/hold locks is infuriating because players do just that. The thing is, terrain, enemy ECM, the need to break off and cool down, among other things, all result in those locks being lost. No player should be obligated to assume more than his share of the risk, and it is unreasonable for player to expect another player to do so. While many LRM-boat drivers do not mean 'hold locks plz' in this fashion, that is how it comes across.

That said, I am appreciative of an LRM-player who finds his own locks when he can, and lives (and potentially dies) on the line with the rest of the team. The player who calmly lets others know that he has LRMs without expectation of us killing ourselves for locks is someone I don't mind taking a little risk to hold a lock on juicy target a little longer, or to whom I'll point out an assault mech in the open.

[Lyoto Machida]

The6thMessenger, on 26 October 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

Not every other builds, but those that needs team-work to work best. Like if i brought a brawler, even a 2x AC20 + 2x SRM + 2x ML King-Crab for short-range, i tell my team. If i have 3x AMS + Overload + ECM kitfox, yes i tell them too. But self-sustaining low maintenance builds like 2x ERLL Urbie, or http://mwo.smurfy-ne...24d386de330791a, 2x erppc + 6x ERSL Executioner, i see no need.


If im also an assault, like Direwolf, i also prompt the team to not leave me. Likewise if i see slow assaults in my team, like other direwolfs i prompt the team to not nascar.



But i specified that i have 2x ERLLs, i specified that i use that too. You're demonizing me for the gameplay that i specified that i am not doing. Staying back just for the lurms is bad, i agree -- but that's not what i am doing.



But that just seemed that you want me to use LRMs only for direct fire. And as the loadout i pointed out, it's hot. And again, i have 2x ERLL, i specified that i also play as a sniper, 2x ERLL + 4x LRM5s is hardly a boat. If i were to go boat, i'd go 2x ML and better Lurms -- even bring mechs that does this better.



But i'm not a boat, i don't depend on other people's locks. As i have explained, i inform them of how can i support them best.

The "you" was a rhetorical you. Also, as someone else suggested earlier in the thread, I'd switch out the ERLLs for LLs but that's just me.

When I LRM, I generally drive boats (4x15, 6x5, etc) and I play them from right behind the front lines. Haven't played group queue in months and QP is all I do these days and still manage to do ok with LRMs on my own. The ON1-V isn't a particularly great mech but in 200+ games, I'm at 1.19 W/L and 2.25 KDR. Not the greatest of stats but I'm obviously able to make it work with 3xALRM15s, a large laser and a TAG. People will probably tell you it's a crap build but it does fine for me and I'm not in Tier 5.

Do I fire indirectly at times? Sure...it would be dumb not to under the right circumstances. Again though, the whole point of this thread and the pushback you've received relate to the years of people asking for locks and then proving themselves to be garbage LRM boat pilots. Play however you want, as long as you're being effective. All I was saying was that my preference is to use LRMs in direct fire mode from up close, since it's the most effective way to use them (despite their name). I've never even bought an LRM range module because there's not much effective gain from hitting someone from 1100m away instead of 1000m...too situational to be counted on.

[Kubernetes]

The Amazing Atomic Spaniel, on 26 October 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

Always nice to know when someone on your team has lurms. On more than one occasion, I've launched a UAV which lights up the entire enemy team, only to discover that everybody brought only ERPPCs and ACs.

It's still a good idea to put up UAVs even if your team is trading at range. Your guys will win every trade if they can see when enemies are about to expose themselves.

I don't mind if a guy asks for locks at the beginning of a match; I get annoyed if a guy complains about the lack of locks during a match.

[Lukoi Banacek]

TercieI, on 26 October 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

On a team with LRMs, it's in their best interest to shame you so perhaps you'll learn and not continue to gimp your teams.

So,harsh lol.

OP - you dont need to tell anyone you want locks for your LRMs so save yourself the grief. Any decent player knows the value,of,locking targets, whether someone brought LRM or not. And the guys who cant be botherd to lock targets arent suddenly going to start because you brought it up.

There is nothing tryhard about disliking LRM in their current state btw. You shod enjoy the game, and play it how ya like. But to be fair its a team game and the given mechanics make LRM a marginal choice. Enjoyment of the game and using good loadouts dont have to be mutually exclusive. Just be prepared to deal with the tradeoffs of using your support weapon.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 26 October 2016 - 05:31 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Lyoto Machida, on 26 October 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

When I LRM, I generally drive boats (4x15, 6x5, etc) and I play them from right behind the front lines. Haven't played group queue in months and QP is all I do these days and still manage to do ok with LRMs on my own.

But you are not on your own on 12v12, and you can do better when you're not on your own. And that's the entire point of my prompts.

Lyoto Machida, on 26 October 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

Do I fire indirectly at times? Sure...it would be dumb not to under the right circumstances. Again though, the whole point of this thread and the pushback you've received relate to the years of people asking for locks and then proving themselves to be garbage LRM boat pilots.

But as i have explained, i am not a boat. Quotation marks in that context is sarcastic, it's saying that it's not really lock begging, that what i am doing is not lock begging.

[Bohxim]

Boogie138, on 26 October 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

and only a 2 button hero would bother asking anybody for locks

LOL only have 2 firing buttons for my ac20 jagermech. Guess I'll ask for locks next time I run it XD
cheers mate just in good fun

[Wil McCullough]

if someone asks me to "hold locks cos im lurmer", i normally do a test first.

i pick a target within range that obviously has no hope of remaining locked.
if i see lurms streaming out from 900m away, i never lock any more targets for the rest of the match.
if no lurms squirt out from 2 hills in the distance, i start making the effort to actually start holding targets because the lurmer seems to know what he's doing.

[Lyoto Machida]

Wil McCullough, on 26 October 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

if someone asks me to "hold locks cos im lurmer", i normally do a test first.

i pick a target within range that obviously has no hope of remaining locked.
if i see lurms streaming out from 900m away, i never lock any more targets for the rest of the match.
if no lurms squirt out from 2 hills in the distance, i start making the effort to actually start holding targets because the lurmer seems to know what he's doing.

That's actually pretty ingeniuous hah. Reminds me of the door test in Bronx Tale...though, you can't really do that anymore with the advent of modern cars.

[radiv]

The6thMessenger, on 26 October 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Yeah, but isn't that range is important for sniping?

Are you lurming or sniping? Cus lurming at erll range isnt good. And you cant provide ur own locks and hold it until ur missiles hit at that range. So what are you trying to do lurm, snipe or both? And if ur doing both ur doing it wrong, so heatinefficent and a waste of a mech

[The6thMessenger]

radiv, on 26 October 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

Are you lurming or sniping? Cus lurming at erll range isnt good. And you cant provide ur own locks and hold it until ur missiles hit at that range. So what are you trying to do lurm, snipe or both? And if ur doing both ur doing it wrong, so heatinefficent and a waste of a mech

Kind of works for me.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

I agree asking rarely helps those who don't lock, to lock. But maybe every now and then it could be a good reminder.

In tier 3 I rarely see enemy mechs with radar deprivation.

[Vellron2005]

Yesterday, I was the most effective player during a drop, did 600+ damage, the most of anyone on my team, 2 solo kills, 3 KMDD, and such.. I was in a 6 x MLAS + 2 x LRM15 Archer.

Did not ask for locks.

Stayed behind ridges and out of direct fire most of the match, withing some 600 meters from the enemy. Focused fire, supported my team, and generally followed my lance around.

Then we got stomped by the enemy's assault and medium lances, and the match ended at 8:12.

It was one of the more fun matches I've had.

Did not ask for locks. Used the ones I got. No NARC, no TAG.

Just know how to play a LRM boat..

Personally ALWAYS use "R" to lock for others but even more for myself. I like to see the enemy paperdoll light up and to hit most open areas.

Also, use my own UAV's (usually placed to reveal most of the enemy team, sometimes used as a "I died here beacon" or as an "the last of them are here" beacons..

Edited by Vellron2005, 27 October 2016 - 12:58 AM.

[Oldbob10025]

When I see a mech out in the open running for cover I call them out "Bravo is in the open" and hope that the LRM boat hears that and rains death on them.

I dont understand this hatred for LRM boats thats going around. (I'm going to get crap for this)

But its harder to be a LRM boat than its to be a energy vomit mech at least on my thinking. There are about 10 ways to avoid LRMS to such an extent that you really have to know what your doing to be a effective LRM boat and know whats going on around you. Yes you can argue that if you have a pilot that has no clue on whats going on then hes a hinder to the team but you can have the same agreement with an energy vomit mech. If the energy vomit cant target worth a dam then hes just spreading damage but takes almost no skill to point 12 lasers at a target. (waits for the hate)

Everyone plays the way they want to play and LRMS are part of the game and calling a LRM boat "noob" or some other name in the book seems kinda childish even fore children as everyone has a choice of weapons that are in the mechs. Its up the the pilot skill Energy vomit mech to pin point a target or a LRM pilot to find a lock (his or others) make a choice on terrain to see if they will hit him and not hit a mountain or wall, see if any ECM mechs are close by or if he has radar derp once he goes behind a rock he loses the lock and the missiles miss, or have that light run up and shoot his *** in the back to be effective in the game.

Dont know just some thoughts
(waits for the hate)

[Kroete]

Oldbob10025, on 27 October 2016 - 01:11 AM, said:

When I see a mech out in the open running for cover I call them out "Bravo is in the open" and hope that the LRM boat hears that and rains death on them.

I dont understand this hatred for LRM boats thats going around. (I'm going to get crap for this)

Its from people that get slowly killed be streamed lrm5`s and then moan about "noobtubes" but cant take 1.5 tons of ams on their metamechs.
Its from people that think that radar-derp is better then skill and get killed by lrms in the open.
Its from peek&pook players that get 20-30 tubes blindfired together with 2-3 ll followed by another locked salvo removing his centerarmor after one peeking.

In the end it comes from people that prefer a single style of play, their style of play ...

Edit:
I missed the ones that never look to the sky and get killed by uavs,
and the one that waded slowly straight against my 5x10 dog in the open ...

Edit2:
Tiers are a lie.
In the last days a have seen a lot people that dont use r.
Why do i know it? Watching after dead, i must see enemys with red legs (sometimes with only one red leg left) get shoot at the armored centertorso, enemys get shoot but noone spared a single shot to remove halve the firepower by killing that red sidetorso or arm.
If someone cant lock what he is shootig at, he must be a mouthbreather (its a single buttonmash directly to the moving keys), most times these people were using metamechs with only one or two weapongroups ...

Edited by Kroete, 27 October 2016 - 02:13 AM.

[Albino Boo]

Dee Eight, on 26 October 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

Two games today... I think I supported the team since I'm the one who secured the wins. The first one earned me

Your win/loss is 0.81 and your kdr is 0.62 according to the leader board. My win/loss is 1.02 and my kdr is 0.94. I have done 2338 damage with all lrms since I have started playing this game one year ago. The direct comparison of our stats suggest that lrms are less effective, in terms of personal kills and team wins.