171 replies to this topic

[Wil McCullough]

Kroete, on 27 October 2016 - 01:51 AM, said:

Its from people that get slowly killed be streamed lrm5`s and then moan about "noobtubes" but cant take 1.5 tons of ams on their metamechs.
Its from people that think that radar-derp is better then skill and get killed by lrms in the open.
Its from peek&pook players that get 20-30 tubes blindfired together with 2-3 ll followed by another locked salvo removing his centerarmor after one peeking.

In the end it comes from people that prefer a single style of play, their style of play ...

Edit:
I missed the ones that never look to the sky and get killed by uavs,
and the one that waded slowly straight against my 5x10 dog in the open ...

i'm pretty sure the hate isn't from the ones getting lurmed.
it's from guys on the same team as the lurmer who now have to carry dead weight through a match.

as you said, its hard to do well with lurms. most of the times, lurms and by extension, lurmers are a burden on the team.

[Kroete]

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 02:01 AM, said:

i'm pretty sure the hate isn't from the ones getting lurmed.
it's from guys on the same team as the lurmer who now have to carry dead weight through a match.

as you said, its hard to do well with lurms. most of the times, lurms and by extension, lurmers are a burden on the team.

Lurmers are no more burden then any other teamate that knows how to use their mech and loadout.
If i use my short range mechs, i hope i have a good lrm-boat in my team, his missiles makes it a lot more easy to kill the enemy and saves me a lot of armor.
Or do you know the moment the enemy retreats and you have no more heat to spare, but one more salvo would kill him?
That one salvo flying over your head will do the rest and you can cool down and dont get overheat damage, thats the small moments of a fight, not the heroic big ones, but the ones that gives you a smile for seeing big stompy robots explode.
But iam a funplayer and no stathunter or metawhore ...

The real burden is that one mech that is still living with nearly full armor after his 11 teammates are dead.
Iam sure you also know that one hero too?

[Wil McCullough]

Kroete, on 27 October 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

snip

to do good with lurms, a lot of criteria have to be fulfilled. no ecm, no radar derp, someone up there determined to hold onto a lock, lack of cover for the opponent or a uav.

on an organised team with voice coms and good players etc, lurms can shine. unfortunately, the average mwo lurmer is just... not very good.

i view lurms as those kind of guys on a football or basketball team - when you're winning, they help you win harder. but when you're losing, they make you lose harder too. which is why i call them a burden. you cannot rely on them contribute anything serious when you need them to.

to use your example as well, actually no. i don't wish for a lurmer supporting me a lot of the time.

actually, i wish the guy behind is using anything but lurms. if i need someone to help me take out that last bit of cherry red torso, i want someone with pin-point damage. lasers, ballistics, whatever. because that guy wouldn't be sandblasting the opponent's head, shoulders, arms, side torso and legs with ineffective damage.

i actually also feel certain types of players gravitate towards lurms as a preferred weapon.

and while there are definitely exceptions, that certain type of player just isn't very good in general. most of the time, they're that player with nearly full armor after his 11 teammates are dead.

[BattleBunny]

The Amazing Atomic Spaniel, on 26 October 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

Always nice to know when someone on your team has lurms. On more than one occasion, I've launched a UAV which lights up the entire enemy team, only to discover that everybody brought only ERPPCs and ACs.

That uav is still very helpful in that case.

[Widowmaker1981]

BattleBunny, on 27 October 2016 - 03:49 AM, said:

That uav is still very helpful in that case.

Yep. Being able to see in advance when some enemy mech is about to peek is very very handy.

Don't peek when a UAV is up folks, its why your CT explodes instantly.

[Vellron2005]

Again, like in many LRM threads before, I see the hate and see terms like "burden" being said about LRM users.

As a LRM user, I say to all of you.. keep your balistics and lasers. Easier for me to strip you down to your undergarments and kick you in the rear torso from behind that rock, 900 meters away.

And when the dust settles, I'll be the "burden lurmer" stomping your mech's smoking husk into the ground.

Now on to a more serious, less childish discussion:

LRM's are like any other weapon. If your good with LRMs, you are going to do well. If you aren't, you're not. Same with lasers and ballistics. LRM's are not for everyone.

I suggest you always keep at least one LRM10 on your mech, especially big, slow mechs, just so you can shoot something over the crowd od teammates or when you aren't fast enough to get there.

And if you boat, keep at least some secondary weapons. Just so you can keep pesky lights off your rear torso.

I totally lol when I'm in an Archer or a Mad Dog, and they think they can rear-hump me cose' I'm a LRM boat. My 6 mediums change their minds quickly.

Also, stick to your team and don't solo. That is the most effective way you can do well. Don't be far away from the action, just be in the second line.

[Jehofi]

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 03:46 AM, said:

to do good with lurms, a lot of criteria have to be fulfilled. no ecm, no radar derp, someone up there determined to hold onto a lock, lack of cover for the opponent or a uav.

And here you are thinking that Lurms are just in indirect fire weapon. I mean, honestly after 5 pages of discussion.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 03:46 AM, said:

on an organised team with voice coms and good players etc, lurms can shine. unfortunately, the average mwo lurmer is just... not very good.

The average pug is not very good, does that make the average lurmer better than the average pub because he is using a more difficult weapon?

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 03:46 AM, said:

i view lurms as those kind of guys on a football or basketball team - when you're winning, they help you win harder. but when you're losing, they make you lose harder too. which is why i call them a burden. you cannot rely on them contribute anything serious when you need them to.

Wrong, there are countless instances where Lurms help the team secure the win.
E.g. by being able to fire over the bloody fracking stupid teammate that just went infront of you blocking your LOS.
E.g. by pushing people into cover giving your team fire superiority on the remaining mechs (you know the stuff you always claim the enemy has if you have a Lurmer on your team)

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 03:46 AM, said:

you cannot rely on them contribute anything serious when you need them to.

Actually the problem is always the player, god i have seen players where i wonder... and wonder... and not in a positive way. Metabuild or not, lurmer or lazor, assault or light, if you are behaving normally you are not detrimental to your team.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 03:46 AM, said:

to use your example as well, actually no. i don't wish for a lurmer supporting me a lot of the time.

And i wish i was not so often the tip of the spear when playing a 2nd line mech... lazor or lurmer.

Actually if im a lurmer i sometimes like to be the tip, people tend to rush you only to realize (hopefully far to late) you have buddies right behind you.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 03:46 AM, said:

actually, i wish the guy behind is using anything but lurms. if i need someone to help me take out that last bit of cherry red torso, i want someone with pin-point damage. lasers, ballistics, whatever. because that guy wouldn't be sandblasting the opponent's head, shoulders, arms, side torso and legs with ineffective damage.

So you hope that in that very specific situation you get the pug that can press R, read the chart and aim. Oh and he also followed you, gl.

Luckily your friendly frontline lurmer (if he is a decent player) is equipped with secondary weapons, enough for that cherry red torso.

And here i hide the important part (the one most people forget):
LRMs are a behavior shaping weapon, use that to your advantage and you are doing good.
Often people simply gave up after they did not find cover quickly, just like they sometimes do when they turn the corner to face an assault.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 03:46 AM, said:

i actually also feel certain types of players gravitate towards lurms as a preferred weapon.

and while there are definitely exceptions, that certain type of player just isn't very good in general. most of the time, they're that player with nearly full armor after his 11 teammates are dead.

Reading some posts in this thread i can tell you, those special players a quite evenly distributed over weight and weapon system.

[Wil McCullough]

Jehofi, on 27 October 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

And here you are thinking that Lurms are just in indirect fire weapon. I mean, honestly after 5 pages of discussion.

i am very aware of the tactic of dumb-firing. most lurmers don't. and those that do, and can do it effectively in battle, i think i could probably count them on one hand.

Quote

The average pug is not very good, does that make the average lurmer better than the average pub because he is using a more difficult weapon?

no. it makes him worse. now he's saddled with a weapon that is very ineffective (compared to direct fire) in mediocre to average hands. whatever makes you think the average pub has a lower skill level than the average lurmer? they have the same skill level.

Quote

Wrong, there are countless instances where Lurms help the team secure the win.
E.g. by being able to fire over the bloody fracking stupid teammate that just went infront of you blocking your LOS.
E.g. by pushing people into cover giving your team fire superiority on the remaining mechs (you know the stuff you always claim the enemy has if you have a Lurmer on your team)

yes there are instances where lurms help secure a win. and for every one of those instances, there are probably a hundred others where lasers, ballistics and srms did the job. let me put this another way. hundreds, if not thousands of drivers get into accidents every day. but you don't get into a car expecting to be in a smash-up, do you?

Quote

So you hope that in that very specific situation you get the pug that can press R, read the chart and aim. Oh and he also followed you, gl.

isn't that exactly what you're asking from the pug lurmer in that instance as well? i don't get your point.

Quote

Luckily your friendly frontline lurmer (if he is a decent player) is equipped with secondary weapons, enough for that cherry red torso.

the person i was replying to was talking about missile salvos. not secondary weapons. and like i said, i rather the guy shoot ppfld. i think you just built a straw man.

[Zibmo]

Voq, on 26 October 2016 - 06:16 AM, said:

You're not wrong in saying communication is good. I agree with you.
The problem is, begging for locks tends to mean: "I'm planning to stand back, maybe even out of LoS, firing from safety. But I need YOU to stand up front and face-tank the baddies for me to be able to do that!"
The best lurmers stand toe to toe with their brethren and share armour, and thus, likely don't need to ask for locks cause they can create them for themselves.

As others have pointed out (and I know you're aware), lurms function best around 400m, where your Artemis is working, your flight path is low, fast, and direct, your BAP is starting to kick in, and your backup weapons can come into play too.

It isn't that it's bad to talk - it's the playstyle that it often implies.

There are good lrmers and bad ones. I'm not calling myself good, but in my Kintaro I'm usually in the push. You can't hit your targets from 800 meters without knowing what kind of cover they have. I might shoot a single LRM5 at something just to get them to do the usual panic-it's-a-lrm thing and maybe exposing more of them than they would like. I also occasionally LRM scout by firing and watching where AMS comes from.

In any case, I play my KTO as a medium range light. I am constantly moving trying to keep an angle on the target.

I do, however, see a lot of "turrets" with 15s and 20s just standing in the same spot for a lot of the game. Many of them are Assaults. Who then are upset that the zerg nascared and left them. Maybe they should attempt to move occasionally. Really, that's what the minimap is for - to see your teammates. And both stay with them and avoid running into them.

[edit] To the guy above me: I have ML on my KTO. A good many of my kills are with them, particularly against lights. If you like your bias, you can keep your bias. I feel that I'm pretty effective in my KTO.

LRMs are good for suppression. I can start chain firing 5s (assuming no ams, otherwise I have to group fire) and either force that big boy to charge stupidly into my zerg, or make him hide, thereby removing his armor and firepower from his team effectively during the suppression. And I use dumb fire mostly as a make-them-duck tactic because they have no idea whether I have a lock or not.

Edited by Zibmo, 27 October 2016 - 05:14 AM.

[Jehofi]

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 04:50 AM, said:

i am very aware of the tactic of dumb-firing. most lurmers don't. and those that do, and can do it effectively in battle, i think i could probably count them on one hand.

I was talking about firing with LOS (with the nice benefit of maybe having tag and/or artemis). Because then virtually all of your "special criteria" that make Lurms so bad melt away.

Granted ECM not, but i mostly have a tag. Oh how i delight in Lurming ECM mechs and the ensuring rage.
But hey i can, with 0 problems, fire over small obstacles up to the height of my mech, can you do that in your lazor mech? Oh you need those high mounts and then it is 50/50... well.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 04:50 AM, said:

no. it makes him worse. now he's saddled with a weapon that is very ineffective (compared to direct fire) in mediocre to average hands. whatever makes you think the average pub has a lower skill level than the average lurmer? they have the same skill level.

Is that really so hard to follow.
Same performance + worse weapon = better player.

Actually dont spend much time on that it was just to antagonize you.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 04:50 AM, said:

yes there are instances where lurms help secure a win. and for every one of those instances, there are probably a hundred others where lasers, ballistics and srms did the job. let me put this another way. hundreds, if not thousands of drivers get into accidents every day. but you don't get into a car expecting to be in a smash-up, do you?

Going ballistic here.
Sadly you are totally mistake. LRMs pull their weight just as Lazors do and AC's do. Bad players on the other hand are a hindrance, regardless of the weapon they use.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 04:50 AM, said:

isn't that exactly what you're asking from the pug lurmer in that instance as well? i don't get your point.

a pug is a pug, lurmer or not.

BAD players are BAD, regardless of the weapon. GOOD players are GOOD regardless of their weapon. Honestly that concept is not so hard to understand.
And if you got that we can discuss the finer nuances of weapons, hardpoints and firing lines.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 04:50 AM, said:

the person i was replying to was talking about missile salvos. not secondary weapons. and like i said, i rather the guy shoot ppfld. i think you just built a straw man.

Well to be honest you are standing in front of the enemy, trust the pug to aim trough your armpit? Same chance of getting shot by the Lazor pug as by the lurmer pugs secondary weapon. I see no difference (besides the alpha, but cherry red is cherry red) between the two.

In any case, if you have not noticed yet, the difference again is not the weapon but the user. I hope you get that now after pages of me repeating that.

EDIT:

Zibmo, on 27 October 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

There are good lrmers and bad ones. I'm not calling myself good, but in my Kintaro I'm usually in the push. You can't hit your targets from 800 meters without knowing what kind of cover they have. I might shoot a single LRM5 at something just to get them to do the usual panic-it's-a-lrm thing and maybe exposing more of them than they would like. I also occasionally LRM scout by firing and watching where AMS comes from.

See someone understood the "behavior shaping" part of LRMS. For the not initiated, not every salvo a LRM boat fires is meant to hit, sometimes it is just to trigger those nice beeping accompanied by the red glowing warning of impeding misfortune.

Zibmo, on 27 October 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

I do, however, see a lot of "turrets" with 15s and 20s just standing in the same spot for a lot of the game. Many of them are Assaults. Who then are upset that the zerg nascared and left them. Maybe they should attempt to move occasionally. Really, that's what the minimap is for - to see your teammates. And both stay with them and avoid running into them.

Oh how i love those 50kph assaults that dont move the first 20s of the game.

Zibmo, on 27 October 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

LRMs are good for suppression. I can start chain firing 5s (assuming no ams, otherwise I have to group fire) and either force that big boy to charge stupidly into my zerg, or make him hide, thereby removing his armor and firepower from his team effectively during the suppression. And I use dumb fire mostly as a make-them-duck tactic because they have no idea whether I have a lock or not.

And thus doing to the enemy what is claimed here that only LRM boats do.

Edited by Jehofi, 27 October 2016 - 05:24 AM.

[Single Mom]

Jehofi, on 27 October 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

LRMs pull their weight just as Lazors do and AC's do.

This statement is far from the truth but out of curiosity how are you justifying this claim?

Jehofi, on 27 October 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

In any case, if you have not noticed yet, the difference again is not the weapon but the user.

Yes, however good players using less effective weapons become less effective good players. And they will die to a player of equal skill using more effective weapons.

[Wil McCullough]

Jehofi, on 27 October 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

I was talking about firing with LOS (with the nice benefit of maybe having tag and/or artemis). Because then virtually all of your "special criteria" that make Lurms so bad melt away.

if you have los, you can shoot your lasers and ballistics. you know, those ppfld stuff that allows you to surgically remove a portion of the enemy mech instead of sandblasting him all over?

Quote

But hey i can, with 0 problems, fire over small obstacles up to the height of my mech, can you do that in your lazor mech? Oh you need those high mounts and then it is 50/50... well.

no. i can't. i can however, take two steps left or right from behind the small obstacle and shoot. that's what my left hand is for.

Quote

Is that really so hard to follow.
Same performance + worse weapon = better player.

you were debating the performance of the "average lurmer" compared to the average pub. the "average lurmer" performs worse than the average pub simply because they have the same skill level, just that the lurmer is saddled with a more situational weapon which in many cases is more famine than feast. this "same performance" thing is a new criteria you suddenly threw in just to make your point stand.

once again, you employ a straw man.

Quote

Sadly you are totally mistake. LRMs pull their weight just as Lazors do and AC's do. Bad players on the other hand are a hindrance, regardless of the weapon they use.

BAD players are BAD, regardless of the weapon. GOOD players are GOOD regardless of their weapon. Honestly that concept is not so hard to understand.

another straw man.

not sure what game you play in, but the mwo i know isn't in black and white. a BAD player will perform even WORSE with lurms in many instances. a GOOD player will also perform WORSE with lurms instead of ppfld in many instances. that doesn't make a GOOD player BAD. it just makes his performance LESS GOOD.

you're trying to make it sound as if i'm saying if a good player uses lurms, he becomes a complete potato.

Quote

Well to be honest you are standing in front of the enemy, trust the pug to aim trough your armpit? Same chance of getting shot by the Lazor pug as by the lurmer pugs secondary weapon. I see no difference (besides the alpha, but cherry red is cherry red) between the two.

yet another straw man.

if i'm standing close enough in front of the enemy that the guy behind me has to "aim trough my armpit", i wouldn't be relying on a lurm teammate to shoot that final missile volley to finish off that guy, would i? i could just... shoot. he isn't getting away from me at point frigging blank range, right? did you read the scenario described, or did you just jump in to start lecturing?

you keep twisting things to suit your narrative. it's getting annoying.

Quote

In any case, if you have not noticed yet, the difference again is not the weapon but the user. I hope you get that now after pages of me repeating that.

was this what i was discussing with the other gentleman? player skill level? or is this what you want the discussion to be about?

[Kroete]

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 02:01 AM, said:

i'm pretty sure the hate isn't from the ones getting lurmed.
it's from guys on the same team as the lurmer who now have to carry dead weight through a match.

as you said, its hard to do well with lurms. most of the times, lurms and by extension, lurmers are a burden on the team.

My dog says 1.46 w/l & 1.43 k/d, maybe you can say how much more i need to do to not being a burden anymore?

Edited by Kroete, 27 October 2016 - 05:45 AM.

[Clownwarlord]

I usually do not have an issue with lrm mechs and people playing them, what I do have an issue with is this scenario:

I am piloting my medium, heavy, or whatever and I am doing what I can to do damage. That could be peaking around a corner, hopping to drop off an alpha, circling to the right (NASCAR) as fast as I can to pick off lone mechs in the rear. But I do whatever I can to do damage and get kills. Then half way into the match or toward the end I get a player in chat or voip saying, "WTF where are my locks. This is why we are losing, no one can hold a damn lock."

I look at my armor if I am still alive and see something like 39% nothing on CT bright orange, missing an arm, two open legs in yellow, and maybe even more damage. Then I look at the player sitting back behind me about 300 to 400 meters away in an assault mech (happens to be the player complaining about the team not getting locks). I ghost over his mech with my cursor or cross hairs and see ... 96% armor Stalker or 98% Awesome loaded with missile pods ... .

Yeah this pisses me off. If you are going to ask for locks, ask early and don't ***** when they don't come because some times THERE IS NOT A DAMN THING YOUR TEAM CAN DO FOR YOU!!! Why? Because ECM, Radar Derp, AMS, UAV gets shot down, no tag, no narc, and maybe the enemy is just behind cover and if I leave my little cover to spot for you I die.

So again, ask early, ask nicely, and no b*****ing betty about not getting them later in the match.

That is my opinion and not saying everyone complains about it, but when it does it is annoying and is the only reason why I hate lrm mechs and pilots. It is the ONLY reason why. I also "R" my target every time, why because even though I am not a lrm mech I liek to know the weak points in my enemy.

Edited by Clownwarlord, 27 October 2016 - 05:54 AM.

[Black Phoebe]

Kroete, on 27 October 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

My dog says 1.46 w/l & 1.43 k/d, maybe you can say how much more i need to do to not being a burden anymore?

This season my LurmDog won 32 out of 47 games so far, that is a w/l ratio of 2.13, with an average of 1 kill per game and an kdr of 1.7. After playing almost 300 games in my MDD's, i'm finally going to be almost viable, i guess.

My overall stats show a somewhat lower w/l ratio of "only" 1.42, but the kills/game and the kdr stays practically the same.

Edited by Black Phoebe, 27 October 2016 - 06:02 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

Kroete, on 27 October 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

My dog says 1.46 w/l & 1.43 k/d, maybe you can say how much more i need to do to not being a burden anymore?

you could switch your lurms to srm4-6as for a start.

as you said, and i agreed with, it's hard to do well with lurms. and as i said, and you quoted, "most of the times, lurms and by extension, lurmers are a burden".

keywords being "most of the time".

if you do well with lurms, you'll probably do better with other weapon systems. telling me your w/l and k/d/a with your lurmer isn't going to change that.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 27 October 2016 - 05:57 AM.

[Jehofi]

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

if you have los, you can shoot your lasers and ballistics. you know, those ppfld stuff that allows you to surgically remove a portion of the enemy mech instead of sandblasting him all over?

straw man, oh look i can say that too and just ignore your argument.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

you were debating the performance of the "average lurmer" compared to the average pub. the "average lurmer" performs worse than the average pub simply because they have the same skill level, just that the lurmer is saddled with a more situational weapon which in many cases is more famine than feast. this "same performance" thing is a new criteria you suddenly threw in just to make your point stand.

And then you realize there is just a pub, no matter what kind of weapon he wields.

I get what you want to say, still this part of the discussion is totally nonsensical ( unless we define groups of players, "average" and all that stuff) and was initiated jut to antagonize you the way you try to antagonize us. It clearly is working, you may stop now and focus on the important part.

And the following quote from you is not the important part.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

once again, you employ a straw man.

another straw man.

yet another straw man.

Try to be more constructive and not claim a straw man argument where none is and thus create a semi straw man in the form of an ad hominem. Look i know the game, no need to play it.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

not sure what game you play in, but the mwo i know isn't in black and white. a BAD player will perform even WORSE with lurms in many instances. a GOOD player will also perform WORSE with lurms instead of ppfld in many instances. that doesn't make a GOOD player BAD. it just makes his performance LESS GOOD.

It may seem that way to you because stats dont reflect the lazor contribution just as the LRM contribution.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

you're trying to make it sound as if i'm saying if a good player uses lurms, he becomes a complete potato.

This is what you said.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 02:01 AM, said:

it's from guys on the same team as the lurmer who now have to carry dead weight through a match.

as you said, its hard to do well with lurms. most of the times, lurms and by extension, lurmers are a burden on the team.

Which is simply untrue.

Yes LRM are certainly not the noob weapon they are claimed out to be, no they are not as bad as you claim they are.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

if i'm standing close enough in front of the enemy that the guy behind me has to "aim trough my armpit", i wouldn't be relying on a lurm teammate to shoot that final missile volley to finish off that guy, would i? i could just... shoot. he isn't getting away from me at point frigging blank range, right? did you read the scenario described, or did you just jump in to start lecturing?

Or you are standing in front of your teammate.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

you keep twisting things to suit your narrative. it's getting annoying.

No, im explaining situations/argumetns to you that you (intentionally?) misunderstand.

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

was this what i was discussing with the other gentleman? player skill level? or is this what you want the discussion to be about?

This is what you need to understand before you make further decisions on the viability of weapons. Because else your results are easily biased.

Lurms are not bad, Lazors are not everything. You dont lose the game because that guy brought lurms, you lose because of bad players* or because the others where simply better/luckier.

*by bad players is mean not generally bad but specifically to this one match bad. Players making decisions that have bad consequences (like: "I think the enemy is coming from here, lets check!" ... "Woah they are already here!")


------------------------------------------------------------------

Clownwarlord, on 27 October 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

I usually do not have an issue with lrm mechs and people playing them, what I do have an issue with is this scenario:

I am piloting my medium, heavy, or whatever and I am doing what I can to do damage. That could be peaking around a corner, hopping to drop off an alpha, circling to the right (NASCAR) as fast as I can to pick off lone mechs in the rear. But I do whatever I can to do damage and get kills. Then half way into the match or toward the end I get a player in chat or voip saying, "WTF where are my locks. This is why we are losing, no one can hold a damn lock."

So you actually dont like people needlessly complaining? Same here!

Clownwarlord, on 27 October 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

Yeah this pisses me off. If you are going to ask for locks, ask early and don't ***** when they don't come because some times THERE IS NOT A DAMN THING YOUR TEAM CAN DO FOR YOU!!! Why? Because ECM, Radar Derp, AMS, UAV gets shot down, no tag, no narc, and maybe the enemy is just behind cover and if I leave my little cover to spot for you I die.

While having cover is good i really would like people to be more aware of firesuperority and the fact that you dont need cover if you push the enemy into cover, dor worry the will not shoot at you and if they do its a loosing trade as your buddis are with you.

Clownwarlord, on 27 October 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

So again, ask early, ask nicely, and no b*****ing betty about not getting them later in the match.

IMHO dont ask, it changes nothing. If you want inform your team, esp. if you have a mech that usually fulfills another role (eg. atlas*).

Clownwarlord, on 27 October 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

That is my opinion and not saying everyone complains about it, but when it does it is annoying and is the only reason why I hate lrm mechs and pilots. It is the ONLY reason why. I also "R" my target every time, why because even though I am not a lrm mech I liek to know the weak points in my enemy.

And again to you, its not the weapon its the pilot that complains, those type also complain when playing something else.

TBH it is a very long time i have seen someone complain about their team not holding locks. It mostly is just "Noob team!" and the like.

*But seriously, from an lrm player to another, dont build a pure LRM atlas, it is no fun.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

you could switch your lurms to srm4-6as for a start.

as you said, and i agreed with, it's hard to do well with lurms. and as i said, and you quoted, "most of the times, lurms and by extension, lurmers are a burden".

keywords being "most of the time".

if you do well with lurms, you'll probably do better with other weapon systems. telling me your w/l and k/d/a with your lurmer isn't going to change that.

And this is what you fail to understand. I play LRM, Ballistic and Lazor-Build (and mixed ofc). I dont do better, i do different with different builds. The playstyle is different, like switching from poptart to brawler. Jut becasue im a good Lurmer im not automatically a good medium srm brawler. The positioning and movement for a brawler is different that for a 2nd line lurmer.
Yes i can play 2nd line lazor comparable to 2nd line lurmer, in the sense that i end up in front of the enemy still they play differently and im not better in a lazor build that im in a lurm build, im different.

Edited by Jehofi, 27 October 2016 - 06:29 AM.

[Black Phoebe]

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

you could switch your lurms to srm4-6as for a start.

Yes, i could do that. Or i play my ER PPC Nova poptart, my triple UAC5 JM-6 or one of my FrankenMechs with a strange loadout, as long as i meet two conditions. They have to be fun and they have to have a w/l around 1.0 after a certain amount of games.

If i want to bring srm, i usually go with a Griffin or a Storm Crow. I also do not have a problem with bringing a "Meta Mech", if it can meet those 2 conditions.

Edited by Black Phoebe, 27 October 2016 - 06:40 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

Jehofi, on 27 October 2016 - 06:20 AM, said:

straw man, oh look i can say that too and just ignore your argument.

but i haven't been ignoring any of your arguments. i've been systematically picking them apart.

Quote

I get what you want to say, still this part of the discussion is totally nonsensical ( unless we define groups of players, "average" and all that stuff) and was initiated jut to antagonize you the way you try to antagonize us.

i wasn't trying to antagonize anyone. i have no idea why you feel that way. maybe try taking things less personally in a cyber disagreement? *shrugs*

Quote

Try to be more constructive and not claim a straw man argument where none is and thus create a semi straw man in the form of an ad hominem. Look i know the game, no need to play it.

i point out weak arguments when i see them in a debate. you could try to chuck around terminology while also committing an ad hominem (insinuating that i'm playing a game) but that doesn't change the fact that your arguments are weak.

Quote

Or you are standing in front of your teammate.

so what's the story now? tell me what you want it to be so we can discuss it instead of you throwing new things in every response.

- i'm standing in front of my teammate
- the opponent is 1 hit away from destruction
- what's the distance between my teammate and myself?
- is my teammate on an incline?
- any corners on the terrain the opponent can hide behind?
- how far IS the opponent from me?

cos this went from "the opponent is 1 hit away from death and getting out of range" to "he's point blank, you're blocking your teammate etc."

Quote

No, im explaining situations/argumetns to you that you (intentionally?) misunderstand.

no. you're twisting and adding criteria to the argument in order to give yourself something to stand on. because your original argument sucks and you know it. that is practically the definition of a straw man.

Quote

Lurms are not bad, Lazors are not everything. You dont lose the game because that guy brought lurms, you lose because of bad players* or because the others where simply better/luckier.

lurms ARE pretty bad. i would actually like to see them get bloody buffed.

can players use them and still be effective? sure. but the same player could become more effective with almost any other weapon. in SOME situations, lurms would be the go-to weapon of choice, but those situations aren't very common. mainly because to use lurms to their greatest effect, you need a lot of skill, voice com and organised play. things that joe blow down the street doesn't have, or even bothers about in his group or quick play matches.

it's one thing to have fun in a less than meta mech/weapon. but it's another thing to claim that you're not giving yourself a disadvantage by running that weap/mech. hell, i main a splat dog and love it to bits, but you don't see me running around white-knighting that there's nothing wrong with its ct from the side.

goddamn thing looks like adam driver's nose.

[Kroete]

Wil McCullough, on 27 October 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

you could switch your lurms to srm4-6as for a start.

as you said, and i agreed with, it's hard to do well with lurms. and as i said, and you quoted, "most of the times, lurms and by extension, lurmers are a burden".

keywords being "most of the time".

if you do well with lurms, you'll probably do better with other weapon systems. telling me your w/l and k/d/a with your lurmer isn't going to change that.

Are you sure?
Iam still working on some problems after a stroke.

The other point is...
Im my youth the Gruftis (german goth) did the 4steps for 4 steps back dance, now put moorhuhn ( a stupid simple point and click "shooter") in it and you are playing the meta-game.
Meta is a boring *****, using lrms are more challenging with all that counters.

But trying to use a 9 button mouse after 25 years of 2 and 3 button mice is the real challenge i have in the moment.