301 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

RestosIII, on 26 October 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

No, but can you find the logic in LRMs and AC's both draining from a reactor, and magically generating new heat when they fire within a period of each other? Because I definately can't.

Logic regardless (I have suggestions but really it's not important), it does more to fixing issues with the game.

Edited by Snowbluff, 26 October 2016 - 08:25 PM.

[xe N on]

RestosIII, on 26 October 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

No, but can you find the logic in LRMs and AC's both draining from a reactor, and magically generating new heat when they fire within a period of each other? Because I definately can't.

You talk about realism of physics and technology. I talk about logic of game balance.

Mechwarrior never was physically realistic, so we don't need to discuss that.

Edited by xe N on, 26 October 2016 - 08:27 PM.

[Mcgral18]

xe N on, on 26 October 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

You talk about realism of physics and technology. I talk about logic of game balance.

Mechwarrior never was physically realistic, so we don't need to discuss that.

All ED does it kill off any mixing of weapons


Makes Monoboating the most effective thing to do, which can get you as close to the limit as possible with as little effort.



There will be less build diversity than Ghost Heat Mk1, as you can freely mix lasers, ACs or PPCs, with limited restriction
Ghost Heat Mk2 would need far more work to be accepted, or even effective.

[TKSax]

TLBFestus, on 26 October 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:

Has anyone checked on BloodWolf?

I'm talkin' SEIZURES of APOPLEXY here......

I think he may be on a forced forum vacation...

[RestosIII]

Snowbluff, on 26 October 2016 - 08:24 PM, said:

Logic regardless (I have suggestions but really it's not important), it does more to fixing issues with the game.

xe N on, on 26 October 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

You talk about realism of physics and technology. I talk about logic of game balance.

Mechwarrior never was physically realistic, so we don't need to discuss that.

Have you heard of balancing without nonsense mechanics that make the game needlessly complicated? I find ghost heat to be trash, and it should never have existed. I cannot defend it. But it is better than ED, which pays no heed to how weapon systems work in a battle, only their damage values and PGI giving a glancing "Eh, I guess we shouldn't make LRMs cost the exact same as AC's. Lower their cost by 25% and we'll call it a day." Give us an actual heat scale and I'll be happy. Give us spooky energy, and I am out.

And please, tell me how mixed builds are the devil, and that firing SRMS+AC's are so, so dangerous and need to be nerfed. Or firing anything with LRMs. All ED encourages is boating in sets of 30 damage, not making your builds more diverse.

[Mystere]

Xmith, on 26 October 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

Darn, I was hoping for a change to gameplay real soon. I'm ready for the challenge right now.

I'm amazed at the folks that seem to be scared to death. ED won't be that bad until you adapt.

You will adapt, right?

Scared? It's a video game. What's there to be scared about? <shrugs>

Edited by Mystere, 26 October 2016 - 08:41 PM.

[Mystere]

MechaBattler, on 26 October 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

Basically the community is reacting to ED changes with "Don't nerf my favorite builds!"

Maybe I'm an anarchist. But honestly I want them to turn the meta on it's head. Then I can drink up the tears of people as they have to scramble to find the new meta.

If you really really want to turn the meta on its head ... go stock builds! And you get your anarchy as a bonus.

Edited by Mystere, 26 October 2016 - 08:49 PM.

[Mystere]

xe N on, on 26 October 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

ED was not well done but a step into the right direction.

Then get it done well instead of releasing it half-assed.

xe N on, on 26 October 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

Mechwarrior never was physically realistic, so we don't need to discuss that.

Considering it's now 2016, I say adding as much physics and realism as possible within the limitations of the IP is a good thing.

[Carl Vickers]

Mystere, on 26 October 2016 - 09:00 PM, said:

Then get it done well instead of releasing it half-assed.



Considering it's now 2016, I say adding as much physics and realism as possible within the limitations of the IP is a good thing.

FTFY

That should be PGI's motto

[Felicitatem Parco]

Mole, on 26 October 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

I'm gonna be honest, if they released ED and it broke all 50 something of my favorite 'mech builds, the idea of having to rebuild every one of those 'mechs makes me so sick to my stomach that I may leave this game and never come back instead of taking the time to do it.

Too bad. Of course, I bet there's a good chance your "50 builds" are based around the limits of Ghost Heat, no? That kind of attitude is toxic to this game.

" I learned how to play this way and I don't want to change. Wah."

Edited by Prosperity Park, 26 October 2016 - 09:09 PM.

[DaZur]

I give up... I swear it's like no effort on PGI's part will ever be good enough until they magically manage to tick the right box on everyone's personal list.

Yes, ED had it's flaws but the intent was with best intentions. But yet again... here we are with PGI redacting their efforts to placate the wild flailings of the community.

Good job.

[RestosIII]

Prosperity Park, on 26 October 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

Too bad. Of course, I bet there's a good chance your "50 builds" are based around the limits of Ghost Heat, no? That kind of attitude is toxic to this game.

DaZur, on 26 October 2016 - 09:10 PM, said:

I give up... I swear it's like no effort on PGI's part will ever be good enough until they magically manage to tick the right box on everyone's personal list.

Yes, ED had it's flaws but the intent was with best intentions. But yet again... here we are with PGI redacting their efforts to placate the wild flailings of the community.

Good job.

Gargoyle C lore loadout of 6 medium lasers and an UAC/20 would get hit by ED. I don't see anyone claiming it needs any form of nerfing. But it would be one of the innocent bystanders crushed under the disgusting heel of ED. Just say no to ED.

Edited by RestosIII, 26 October 2016 - 09:11 PM.

[DaZur]

RestosIII, on 26 October 2016 - 09:10 PM, said:

Gargoyle C lore loadout of 6 medium lasers and an UAC/20 would get hit by ED. I don't see anyone claiming it needs any form of nerfing. But it would be one of the innocent bystanders crushed under the disgusting heel of ED. Just say no to ED.

Understood... But then again, nowhere did PGI infer they were perfectly happy with ED in its present iteration with intent to jam it down everyone's throat. If fact to the contrary they made a point to say it would not release until it was able to "reasonably" meet the majorities expectations.

But nope... as usual, folks flailed about the forum in epileptic seizures.

Edited by DaZur, 26 October 2016 - 09:16 PM.

[RestosIII]

DaZur, on 26 October 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

Understood... But then again, nowhere did PGI infer they were perfectly happy with ED in its present iteration with intent to jam id down everyone's throat. If fact to the contrary they made a point to say it would not release until it was able to "reasonably" meet the majorities expectations.

But nope... as usual, folks flailed about the forum in epileptic seizures.

So, how do you believe ED would avoid hitting certain mechs but not others? Because different mechs using the same weapons have completely different viability. All I can think of is quirking underperforming mechs with ED specific quirks. And please god no I don't want balance to be even more complicated for the Overlord to try and manage.

Oh, and speaking of PGI jamming things down our throat without anyone being happy about it, they've done that to us before. The minimap. I still can't play as well as I used to because of the minimap change.

[AnTi90d]

RestosIII, on 26 October 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

Just checked Russ' Twitter, and I came upon this gem:

Holy hell, that's the best MWO news I've heard all god damn year.

(I didn't notice this post, yesterday, because I assumed it was a FP rant. I'm glad that I randomly opened it up to see how it got to 3 pages and wasn't yet jettisoned to the FP section or K-tizzle.)

[RestosIII]

AnTi90d, on 26 October 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

Holy hell, that's the best MWO news I've heard all god damn year.

(I didn't notice this post, yesterday, because I assumed it was a FP rant. I'm glad that I randomly opened it up to see how it got to 3 pages and wasn't yet jettisoned to the FP section or K-tizzle.)

"Yesterday" he says.

'posted 4 hours ago'

[Gas Guzzler]

DaZur, on 26 October 2016 - 09:10 PM, said:

I give up... I swear it's like no effort on PGI's part will ever be good enough until they magically manage to tick the right box on everyone's personal list.

Yes, ED had it's flaws but the intent was with best intentions. But yet again... here we are with PGI redacting their efforts to placate the wild flailings of the community.

Good job.

It would have been bad for the game, sorry, boating the same weapon may sound great to you, but that sounds boring as **** to me.

Effort from PGI? How about setting the XML value on MGs back to 1 dps? Or remove the CoF, or both?? Is that too much effort? How about making IS small lasers useful weapons? How much effort have they put in to that? We have gone through 5 patches since the Kodiak was released, and the KDK-3 STILL HAS POSITIVE QUIRKS!! It doesn't take a lot of effort, just some XML edits. But no, they have to design a whole new mechanic to punish mechs that "workaround" ghost heat, despite the fact that most of those mechs (aside from the Kodiak) are pretty much balanced.

DaZur, on 26 October 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

But nope... as usual, folks flailed about the forum in epileptic seizures.

Actually we just thought it through.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 26 October 2016 - 09:34 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

The fundamental issue is that ED replaces big alpha strikes with boating single weapon types, whenever you're not running a gauss + ppc build.

For most opponents of ED, it's not about the inconvenience of a brand new meta and having to rebuild mechs. The problem is that the ED meta would be exceptionally boring and simplistic. We would be back to LL boating Stalkers from 2013! There would be no incentive for combining lasers and SRMs on a Timber Wolf, for example. Boating, all day.

No amount of tweaking will change the fundamental concept of what ED is.

[DaZur]

RestosIII, on 26 October 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Gas Guzzler, on 26 October 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

Never said I had the magic answers. If I did I would (hopefully) be doing something more beneficial than balancing a game.... but I digress.

My response goes back to the fact that PGI thought enough to put it on the PTS (As useful as that may be) and made clear it would not go live unless it essentially fixed more than if broke.

Instead, folks like yourself continued to ignore this proposition and instead belabored over the fact that it had it's faults (All of which reviewed and discussed ad nauseum) and continued to treat AD like it was written in stone.

PGIs fully culpable for creating this environment where nothing they say or do is trusted or considered reasonable and equitable.

That said, at some point this community is going to have to accept some concessions through the effort to balance this game or nothing they do will ever be good enough.

[Gas Guzzler]

DaZur, on 26 October 2016 - 09:55 PM, said:

Never said I had the magic answers. If I did I would (hopefully) be doing something more beneficial than balancing a game.... but I digress.

My response goes back to the fact that PGI thought enough to put it on the PTS (As useful as that may be) and made clear it would not go live unless it essentially fixed more than if broke.

Instead, folks like yourself continued to ignore this proposition and instead belabored over the fact that it had it's faults (All of which reviewed and discussed ad nauseum) and continued to treat AD like it was written in stone.

PGIs fully culpable for creating this environment where nothing they say or do is trusted or considered reasonable and equitable.

That said, at some point this community is going to have to accept some concessions through the effort to balance this game or nothing they do will ever be good enough.

I tried it. There were times where it felt playable, but needed improvement, and then it got worse as it went on. Alistair put it very well.

But, you seem to missing the fact that ED can't balance the game in principle, all it does is forces you to pick from a couple different weapons and boat that weapon to the point where you can easily split it up into one or two 30-draw groups. Mixing weapons sucks under Energy Draw, you have to contend with time between shots when your weapons are ALREADY behaving differently, much more efficient to just boat the same if you can get any more firepower by mixing it up, and that is boring and will get old quickly. It also targets mechs that are balanced and nerfs them, while not really affecting some of the top tier mechs. And that is all how energy draw behaves... tweaking values doesn't change the concept of linking all weapons together, and only focusing on burst DPS. Your faith that it would somehow balance the game is vastly misplaced. Balance is already pretty damn good, all it needs is some tweaking, and outliers need to be brought in line (Kodiak-3).