301 replies to this topic

[Cementi]

[Redacted] While I am not 100% for ED I feel something needs to be done and more testing would have been better than scrapping yet another system they spent time developing.

Congrats on caving in to the cryhards 2 years in a row PGI. Enjoy your alpha warrior online [Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 26 October 2016 - 11:10 PM.
unconstructive

[Gas Guzzler]

Cementi, on 26 October 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

[Redacted] While I am not 100% for ED I feel something needs to be done and more testing would have been better than scrapping yet another system they spent time developing.

Congrats on caving in to the cryhards 2 years in a row PGI. Enjoy your alpha warrior online [Redacted]

Lol you sound ignorant FYI.

Sorry all those 20-35 damage alphas are just too hurtful. Just to clear something up, WE are not the cryhards, the ones who whine about "alpha warrior online" are the actual cryhards. The rest of us just want to play a balanced game.

Edited by draiocht, 26 October 2016 - 11:11 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[RestosIII]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 October 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

Lol you sound ignorant FYI.

Sorry all those 20-35 damage alphas are just too hurtful. Just to clear something up, WE are not the cryhards, the ones who whine about "alpha warrior online" are the actual cryhards. The rest of us just want to play a balanced game.

But, but... 2 C-LRM 20's, 2 C-LPLas and 2 C-MPLas can be fired at the same time! Alphawarrior Online must be stopped!!!!

Edited by RestosIII, 26 October 2016 - 10:21 PM.

[MrMadguy]

I don't know, why everybody is against ED. It's the same ghost heat, but expanded to work with all kinds of weapons at once. I.e. you wouldn't be able to avoid 22 heat penalty for using 4 UACs on Kodiak 3 via replacing 2xUAC10 with 2xUAC5 and Kodiak 3 wouldn't be so OP, as it is now. You know... Sometimes players don't even know, what they want. They ask for balance, but at the same time when developer do something to balance the game, players all of a sudden start to cry, that such radical solutions are crap and shouldn't happen. Why? Hard Alpha limit for ALL weapons at once - is the only 100% reliable solution. All other solutions can be tricked.

The only thing, I personally don't like - is that some other stupid changes come with ED. Like Gauss limit and DHS nerfs. I personally play this game "as intended" (that's why I constantly lose, lol) and I want to be able to continue playing this game such way without completely rebuilding all my 'Mechs from scratch. It's much much easier to quit this game, than doing it.

Edited by MrMadguy, 26 October 2016 - 10:20 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Cementi, on 26 October 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

[Redacted] While I am not 100% for ED I feel something needs to be done and more testing would have been better than scrapping yet another system they spent time developing.

Congrats on caving in to the cryhards 2 years in a row PGI. Enjoy your alpha warrior online [Redacted]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 26 October 2016 - 11:12 PM.
image with inappropriate language, Quote Clean-Up

[Gas Guzzler]

MrMadguy, on 26 October 2016 - 10:19 PM, said:

I don't know, why everybody is against ED. It's the same ghost heat, but expanded to work with all kinds of weapons at once. I.e. you wouldn't be able to avoid 22 heat penalty for using 4 UACs on Kodiak 3 via replacing 2xUAC10 with 2xUAC5 and Kodiak 3 wouldn't be so OP, as it is now. You know... Sometimes players don't even know, what they want. They ask for balance, but at the same time when developer do something to balance the game, players all of a sudden start to cry, that such radical solutions are crap and shouldn't happen. Why? Hard Alpha limit for ALL weapons at once - is the only 100% reliable solution. All other solutions can be tricked.

The only thing, I personally don't like - is that some other stupid changes come with ED. Like Gauss limit and DHS nerfs. I personally play this game "as intended" (that's why I constantly lose, lol) and I want to be able to continue playing this game such way without completely rebuilding all my 'Mechs from scratch. It's much much easier to quit this game, than doing it.

You need to think beyond two feet in front of you. ED massively nerfs heaps of mediocre builds, and leaves some top tier loadouts completely untouched or barely harms them. It literally promotes the boating of the same weapon, which is super boring. At least with GH you can be creative and mix weapon types if you are a heavy or assault and want to have appropriate firepower.

[Carl Vickers]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 October 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

You need to think beyond two feet in front of you. E

Wasnt this game sold as the thinking mans shooter, it falls down in soo many areas, this being one.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 26 October 2016 - 10:29 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Mystere, on 26 October 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:

If you really really want to turn the meta on its head ... go stock builds! And you get your anarchy as a bonus.

That's only fun if everyone has to do it. If it's just me. Then I'm just an *** for bringing the team down.

[RestosIII]

MechaBattler, on 26 October 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:

That's only fun if everyone has to do it. If it's just me. Then I'm just an *** for bringing the team down.

So, you're calling me a HUGE *** then, since I run only lore builds?!?!




...Fair enough.

[MechaBattler]

RestosIII, on 26 October 2016 - 10:38 PM, said:

So, you're calling me a HUGE *** then, since I run only lore builds?!?!




...Fair enough.

Well how authentic to the lore are we talking? lol

[draiocht]

[mod]Edited the thread title for clarity to
"A Cease-Fire Has Been Called! [re: Energy Draw]"[/mod]

[RestosIII]

MechaBattler, on 26 October 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:

Well how authentic to the lore are we talking? lol

About the only things I change are armor values, and ammo/heatsink counts. If it's an IS mech that ran with SHS, no Ferro, and no Endo? Well I probably won't run that specific variant, but when I do run them I keep it legit. The main exceptions for my lore builds are when I really need something mindlessly fun. Like 6 AC/2 Night Gyrs. Ever run a lore loadout of an Urbanmech for more than 2 matches? I have.

[Duke Nedo]

I am amazed by the reaction from people vs this. Completely polarized.

There's nothing wrong with the principle of having another resource (energy) to manage weapon overload instead of Ghost Heat 1.0. The problem lies in it's implementation and that's what we should discuss imo instead of freaking out and threatening to leave. Same goes for InfoWarfare and what else they scrapped. The principle is not the problem, the implementation is!

Find it quite amusing that suddenly the core crowd is very happy about Ghost Heat 1.0, the same people used to be very negative towards it. To be honest now, Ghost Heat 1.0 is not any good either, it also punishes some arbitrary weapons combinations while doing nothing at all for other combinations. We got so used to using the loopholes in Ghost Heat 1.0 that we expect it. AFAIC you can just remove Ghost Heat 1.0 if we are not going to improve on it (develop ED into something more consistent and HUD-integrated).

IMO ED would be a good solution for all hit-scan weapons, group these together. There is no reason not to really. However, I'd like to see a different solution for missiles and ballistics so that these kinds of mixed builds are not punished relative to boating on the ED-limit.

[Gas Guzzler]

Duke Nedo, on 26 October 2016 - 10:47 PM, said:

I am amazed by the reaction from people vs this. Completely polarized.

There's nothing wrong with the principle of having another resource (energy) to manage weapon overload instead of Ghost Heat 1.0. The problem lies in it's implementation and that's what we should discuss imo instead of freaking out and threatening to leave. Same goes for InfoWarfare and what else they scrapped. The principle is not the problem, the implementation is!

Find it quite amusing that suddenly the core crowd is very happy about Ghost Heat 1.0, the same people used to be very negative towards it. To be honest now, Ghost Heat 1.0 is not any good either, it also punishes some arbitrary weapons combinations while doing nothing at all for other combinations. We got so used to using the loopholes in Ghost Heat 1.0 that we expect it. AFAIC you can just remove Ghost Heat 1.0 if we are not going to improve on it (develop ED into something more consistent and HUD-integrated).

IMO ED would be a good solution for all hit-scan weapons, group these together. There is no reason not to really. However, I'd like to see a different solution for missiles and ballistics so that these kinds of mixed builds are not punished relative to boating on the ED-limit.

Well I was going to start by saying that the principle of linking all weapons together is bad, then I saw that you want ED for lasers, but don't want builds with missiles and ballistics to be punished? Did I get that right? If so, like what the hell man? You realize that laser boats are already mediocre, why do you need to keep nerfing them?

The thing is, GH limits combinations of identical performing weapons, so you can't do a 54 damage pinpoint laser alpha at 740 meters. It doesn't say oh you can't fire these LPLs with that UAC10 at the same time, too much damage, even though its not nearly as effective as an equivalent level of damage with only LPLs.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 26 October 2016 - 10:52 PM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Balance is a pipe dream...so many older mechs are now obsolete due to the previous attempts at balance, and when new mechs are introduced, they bring more balance issues into the equation that need to be addressed.

[MechaBattler]

RestosIII, on 26 October 2016 - 10:46 PM, said:

About the only things I change are armor values, and ammo/heatsink counts. If it's an IS mech that ran with SHS, no Ferro, and no Endo? Well I probably won't run that specific variant, but when I do run them I keep it legit. The main exceptions for my lore builds are when I really need something mindlessly fun. Like 6 AC/2 Night Gyrs. Ever run a lore loadout of an Urbanmech for more than 2 matches? I have.

My Warhammer 6D runs standard engine and single heatsinks, boating medium lasers. But I couldn't justify not getting Endo. It's one of the few builds were singles actually edge out double heatsinks.

[Gas Guzzler]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 26 October 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

Balance is a pipe dream...so many older mechs are now obsolete due to the previous attempts at balance, and when new mechs are introduced, they bring more balance issues into the equation that need to be addressed.

Its all in XML edits. Take underperforming mechs, and tap them up a notch.. its easy.

[Cy Mitchell]

No, take the over performing Mechs and tap them down a bit. Power creep is a thing. TTK is short enough already.

[Duke Nedo]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 October 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

Well I was going to start by saying that the principle of linking all weapons together is bad, then I saw that you want ED for lasers, but don't want builds with missiles and ballistics to be punished? Did I get that right? If so, like what the hell man? You realize that laser boats are already mediocre, why do you need to keep nerfing them?

The thing is, GH limits combinations of identical performing weapons, so you can't do a 54 damage pinpoint laser alpha at 740 meters. It doesn't say oh you can't fire these LPLs with that UAC10 at the same time, too much damage, even though its not nearly as effective as an equivalent level of damage with only LPLs.

Yes, you got that right, but I'd also like other mechanism to rein in boated ballistics and boated missiles like some creative use of recoil, convergence, missile spread and missile tubes. I have written that in other threads but didn't mention it here so sorry about that. Anyways, that probably wont happen.

About laser boating there are holes that almost lets you do that by combining LPLs with MLs and especially cLPLs with cERML (though a little less so after range reduction). It's close enough for us to call them laser boats after all. IMO, as long as you can do that you can just as well remove GH all together for all I care. Alpha-boats would be a bit more effective but not extremely much so I guess... in any case it could partly be mitigated by reducing the dps of long range weapons significantly relative to short range equivalents.

The point I am trying to make is that GH1 is a poorly integrated grouping full of holes that we exploit as much as we can to stay as close as possible to what we could do before GH1 was introduced. So, if it's now consensus that some kind of GH is needed to reduce alphas I think we should improve on it. A good implementation of ED could do that, but only a good implementation of it.

[Duke Nedo]

Just to follow up on that, there are things with ED I think is good, like:

* HUD integration
* Consistency
* ED capacity of each mech could be used as a balance parameter

So if the drawbacks could just be ironed out I wouldn't mind trying it. Actually I would welcome some change, it's rather stale now.

Same goes for InfoWarfare. It had some good potential and I was very happy they did not implement it as it was, but I am very sad that they scrapped the whole thing and didn't keep and improve on the actual good bits about detection ranges that could have reached the live server by now.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 26 October 2016 - 11:15 PM.