301 replies to this topic

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

DaZur, on 27 October 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

You got a sampling from a very vocal minority. I wouldn't cling to those numbers so tightly.

No no no, the current system is obviously superior. Cancelling the info changes worked wonders, just like cancelling ED will.

See for yourself.
http://steamcharts.com/app/342200#All

[Quxudica]

RestosIII, on 26 October 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

Just checked Russ' Twitter, and I came upon this gem:



So unless Russ is going to "surprise" us with him suddenly releasing it despite that comment, we have delayed the monster for at least 2 more months! Now all we need to do is find out where its nest is, and deal the finishing blow when it comes out next year to try and feast on our young!

That's a shame. I've been gone for ages. Decided to check the forum out of random curiosity to see if the game was still limping along and saw the outline for the Energy Draw mechanics. I admit I was excited to see they were finally doing something to address how the game had (certainly when last I played at least) become nothing but an alpha strike spam fest. Every mech was being built like a single giant gun regardless of weight class or the "role" the chassis was originally meant to fill. Guess I got my hopes up a little too quickly however. Meh.

Edited by Quxudica, 27 October 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2016 - 06:05 AM, said:

Why? The Kodiak-3 is too strong, but why are the rest of mechs needing to be toned down? TTK is no shorter than other MechWarrior games, and is much longer than other shooters... whats the big deal? Why sacrifice fun, variety, and balance for this?

The further the excess of DPS, the greater the change will be under PD. If you believe that the KDK-3's alpha or DPS are too high, then understand that PD will have the greatest effect on it, in both percentage and raw amount of DPS. Putting out 60 damage at once with the 2 UAC5 and 2 UAC10 will shut it down, so the DPS will have to be reduced by players through fire control, and that give opponents fighting it a better chance.

Pretty simple. Furthermore, Lights are considered weak, they are affected the least (except the exceptionally strong ACH and the Jenner IIC that can boat 36 dmg alphas). Mediums are generally ditched in favor of heavies, but are also less affected by PD.

Of course, some mechs will hardly be changed at all. My Pokehammer has a 30 damage alpha, so the legit way to use it by poking will be fine, but I use it like dakka so I will be more affected.

PLayers complain about so many things in this game, like "PPFLD is too high!" "using common weapon types is too easy" and "how will you incentivize mixed builds," (hint, all 3 of those are contradictory) but I mostly find these complaints immaterial, especially the mixed builds one. Maybe you should equip weapons based on their firing characteristics and your personal tastes rather than trying to beat Ghost heat. If you can't deal with having hitscan lasers and tracking autocannon shots at the same time, you probably can't fire them both under PD anyway, and you shouldn't expect to be compensated for a deficiency in your skill set.

Edited by Snowbluff, 27 October 2016 - 09:24 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Snowbluff, on 27 October 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

The further the excess of DPS, the greater the change will be under PD. If you believe that the KDK-3's alpha or DPS are too high, then understand that PD will have the greatest effect on it. Putting out 60 damage at once with the 2 UAC5 and 2 UAC10 will shut it down, so the DPS will have to be reduced by players, and that give opponents fighting it a better chance.

Pretty simple.

Except that is incorrect.

Firing ER PPCS and Gauss separately on KDK-3 with super high mounts is no problem. The mechs that get hurt are the mixed builds that rely on a lot of burst damage output.

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

No no no, the current system is obviously superior. Cancelling the info changes worked wonders, just like cancelling ED will.

See for yourself.
http://steamcharts.com/app/342200#All

And you think that the lack of ED is what is causing people to stop playing? Where is the proof of that?

Your logic so flawed here Spock would be angry with you.

[Mystere]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

No no no, the current system is obviously superior. Cancelling the info changes worked wonders, just like cancelling ED will.

See for yourself.
http://steamcharts.com/app/342200#All

Yes, the dwindling of the Steam-based player base was directly caused by the cancellation of the InfoWar changes.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Snowbluff, on 27 October 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Putting out 60 damage at once with the 2 UAC5 and 2 UAC10 will shut it down, so the DPS will have to be reduced by players, and that give opponents fighting it a better chance.

Sure it lowers the damage output of that particular KDK-3, but it doesn't mean its competitors stand more of a chance, for example Spirit Bears and Splatlases are actually more gimped by the extra face time they have to give in order to deal as much damage as they were doing before, which makes them more of a liability.

Then there is the fact it only encourages more homogeneous builds and boating because mixed builds are no longer a way around some sort of limiting mechanic so the advantage of taking two weapons that don't synchronize as good is once again a disadvantage.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2016 - 09:22 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

All of this from an account with 166 games played this season and only 95 kills.... at a 0.77 K/D.....all in heavy mechs no less.

I think you should turn that "git gud" back on yourself before talking trash.

And yet he isn't whining about the game being against him and how PGI needs to fix it to make it easier for him.

I also can't accept balance input from someone who think lights are OP.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lol, people really are that afraid of having to do something besides play the current meta. Its actually scary and hilarious as hell.

[Scout Derek]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Lol, people really are that afraid of having to do something besides play the current meta. Its actually scary and hilarious as hell.

im just here for the Cbills and MC from the event :>

[RestosIII]

Quxudica, on 27 October 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

That's a shame. I've been gone for ages. Decided to check the forum out of random curiosity to see if the game was still limping along and saw the outline for the Energy Draw mechanics. I admit I was excited to see they were finally doing something to address how the game had (certainly when last I played at least) become nothing but an alpha strike spam fest. Every mech was being built like a single giant gun regardless of weight class or the "role" the chassis was originally meant to fill. Guess I got my hopes up a little too quickly however. Meh.

Problem: ED would punish you running more than one type of weapon even more. You either boat in sets of 30 damage strikes, or else. Right now when running mixed builds the main things you need to think about are the different cooldowns, ranges, and velocities of all the weapons you're running. With ED, there's even less incentives to deal with that garbage since you can only fire one set of weapons at a time. So it'll be much easier to just avoid the hassle and run only 1 weapon type. So boating gets even worse.

MrMadguy, on 27 October 2016 - 12:24 AM, said:

I tried to say, that long range weapons should have some drawbacks. Such as much lower dps. And that Lights should have some drawbacks too - and range should be one of them. Cuz now things, like CER-LL-vomit, don't have any drawbacks, so brawlers can't even show their noses out of cover. Yeah, long range weapons should allow you to do some damage from safe distance, but brawlers should be able to counter them somehow - this damage should be "damage over time", not instant two-shot.

P.S. Starsiege. Yeah, game was crappy, but at least Dynamix know, how to design UI. Sorry for pictures - whole Internet don't have better ones, lol. No MechLab picture, sorry.

You DO realize that C-ERLLas are bad, right? And brawlers trade their range for the fact that they are absolute gods at close range. And lights DO have drawbacks: Having no armor or heatsinks, or the tonnage for weaponry if they DO have the hardpoints for good weaponry.

Edited by RestosIII, 27 October 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Lol, people really are that afraid of having to do something besides play the current meta. Its actually scary and hilarious as hell.

Way to ignore the arguments against energy draw. I play non-meta mechs all the time, and the non-comp tier mechs are the ones I am actually worried about. You need to open your eyes and actually read the arguments against ED instead of spouting some crappy assumptions based on ignorance.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

And you think that the lack of ED is what is causing people to stop playing? Where is the proof of that?

I didn't state that. I stated that the current system is clearly superior.

I linked the the steam stats to show how much the current playerbase loves the current system.

Mystere, on 27 October 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

Yes, the dwindling of the Steam-based player base was directly caused by the cancellation of the InfoWar changes.

No, I'm sure the game not changing in the slightest did that all on it's own.

[Snowbluff]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

Except that is incorrect.

Firing ER PPCS and Gauss separately on KDK-3 with super high mounts is no problem. The mechs that get hurt are the mixed builds that rely on a lot of burst damage output.

The PPCs are on low mounts, and firing them separately mitigates a large portion of the PPFLD's effectiveness.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Sure it lowers the damage output of that particular KDK-3, but it doesn't mean its competitors stand more of a chance, for example Spirit Bears and Splatlases are actually more gimped by the extra face time they have to give in order to deal as much damage as they were doing before, which makes them more of a liability.

The Missiles are fine, since they have reduced a PD ratio. As for AC20s I suspect it and other very short range weapons will get a reduced PD as well. PD gives another tool in the kit for balancing them.

But other competitors of the better (I have a spirit bear with basically a splatlas build), less specialized playstyles will be much better off in that match up than they were before, and there's not denying that.

RestosIII, on 27 October 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

Problem: ED would punish you running more than one type of weapon even more. You either boat in sets of 30 damage strikes, or else. Right now when running mixed builds the main things you need to think about are the different cooldowns, ranges, and velocities of all the weapons you're running. With ED, there's even less incentives to deal with that garbage since you can only fire one set of weapons at a time. So it'll be much easier to just avoid the hassle and run only 1 weapon type. So boating gets even worse.

I file these under pilot error. It's easy. PD cycle 1: fire your lasers. PD Cycle 2: Fire autocannons/missiles. Even under the current systems I never feel encouraged to run different systems because of Ghost heat.

I do it because it makes the game more interesting, and I like to employ weapons that that different strengths. Lasers are easy to scrape at lights with. Big guns can get their dps on heavy very well. So on.

Edited by Snowbluff, 27 October 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[Novakaine]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

Except that is incorrect.

Firing ER PPCS and Gauss separately on KDK-3 with super high mounts is no problem. The mechs that get hurt are the mixed builds that rely on a lot of burst damage output.



And you think that the lack of ED is what is causing people to stop playing? Where is the proof of that?

Your logic so flawed here Spock would be angry with you.

You know Gassy thats exactly what's happening.
As far proof pfffft.
People died to prove the earth is round.
I'm not even going to bother.
Oh and Spock can just kiss my.............

[Duke Nedo]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

How is it a good idea? You have seen the arguments against it, use your brain and come up with something other than "Anything to nerf the laser vomit meta" or "ED was a good idea".

Did you stop to consider that maybe since your in the minority you might be missing some details?

From earlier in the topic:

Duke Nedo, on 26 October 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:

Just to follow up on that, there are things with ED I think is good, like:

* HUD integration
* Consistency
* ED capacity of each mech could be used as a balance parameter

So if the drawbacks could just be ironed out I wouldn't mind trying it. Actually I would welcome some change, it's rather stale now.

Same goes for InfoWarfare. It had some good potential and I was very happy they did not implement it as it was, but I am very sad that they scrapped the whole thing and didn't keep and improve on the actual good bits about detection ranges that could have reached the live server by now.

ED as a concept could do good, I am sure, so I am not buying the argument that ED is inherently a bad idea. However, if you put it like PGI will never get it right and it will hurt the game, yeah then I'm probably with you guys. I wouldn't put it on ED though, I'd put it on PGI's track record... the current implementation on the test server is horrible, granted!

xe N on, on 27 October 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Could you elaborate this?

Mixing weapon currently only has one single purpose: to avoid ghost heat.

Look at the lore build of the Summoner. LBX, ERPPC, LRMs. The original idea is to mix weapons is to have access to different weapon systems for different situations.

Nobody would mix that in MWO. Because in MWO you mix only weapons that stack up your pinpoint alpha or your dakka.

You are of course right, that with ED you could run a mono build with 3 LPL with 30 damage while you currently preferably run e.g. 1 AC10 or Gauss and 2 LPL for the same damage or even higher to avoid ghost heat.

But, why should you shouldn't run a 3 LPL laser build? Or a 8 medium laser build? Because of 1 button smashing? That's done the same way with Gauss or AC10. There are even macros around to release Gauss and Laser at the same time. And, in the end, the ACs runs your build cooler on the costs of weight. So, ghost heat highly favors heavier mechs that can field in heavier weapons in mix with light weapons to avoid ghost heat.

If in ED you have no reason to mix weapons it is not the fault of ED. And, on the other side, if ghost heat allows you to bypass it's intention by simply choosing a different class of weapons it is not the fault of ghost heat. It is the fault of failed weapon balance where you can replace a AC or Gauss against a Laser and only find out minor difference in purpose and using.

This is a more nuanced view on the topic, totally agree! All we do all the time is to build each mech into as much of a single-weapon gun as we can by mixing things, when we can't boat more, to circumvent the restrictions imposed on us by GH1. The better we manage, the better the mech/build...

To me ED has potential that is being thrown away, that's all. So did Info Warfare... someone around here needs to start making good decisions. Not going live with the current ED implementation is a good decision, but taking good bits like HUD integration and a new balancing layer and refine these concepts would be a better decision imo.

Peace. Time to play instead!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Snowbluff, on 27 October 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

The Missiles are fine, since they have reduced a PD ratio.

Sure they are, if you can boat them enmasse, mechs like the AS7-S and Spirit Bear cannot alpha though, which was one of the only reasons they were ever a threat is because they could do massive alphas while twisting at short range to spread damage, with having to spread your shots out into two volleys, that either means you have to face stare until you can fire the AC20 or you have to just rely on your SRMs to do any damage. The problem is that the AC20 isn't really a good brawling weapon, its sole purpose in that build was to supply the SRMs with extra damage without incurring ghost heat. If ghost heat wasn't there or a system like ED was introduced, more SRMs would be the better option purely because they are more powerful weapons.

[Hunka Junk]

Duke Nedo, on 27 October 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

ED as a concept could do good, I am sure, so I am not buying the argument that ED is inherently a bad idea.

In that sense, ghost heat could do good.

Why don't you just give ghost heat a chance?

[Clownwarlord]

ED is not dead and when it is introduced we will have to ...




and yes the world will be burning, all will be burning, all the mechs will burn.

Edited by Clownwarlord, 27 October 2016 - 09:42 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Hunka Junk, on 27 October 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

In that sense, ghost heat could do good.

Why don't you just give ghost heat a chance?

Sure, I mostly consider ED to be Ghost Heat 2.0, or 3.0 or whatever... GH1 does fill a purpose, it just does it in a way that is unintuitive and not integrated in the HUD, and it's full of inconsistencies.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

I didn't state that. I stated that the current system is clearly superior.

I linked the the steam stats to show how much the current playerbase loves the current system.



No, I'm sure the game not changing in the slightest did that all on it's own.

Im sure it has nothing to do with typical cyclical steam players trying a new game, the lack of new game modes, or the failing faction play system. Hell, I bet the game economy has more to do with the downturn of players and bad new player retention than the current system. There are dozens of reasons for people to be bored with the game, you are simply saying it is the ghost heat system without any evidence. Pretty weak argument.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 27 October 2016 - 09:51 AM.