137 replies to this topic

[Tristan Winter]

My two cents:

I agree that everything moves too fast for that Battletech feeling and for realism. However, PGI has made a game where they want all mechs to be roughly equal. In other words, while a Dire Wolf may be able to take on five Firestarters single-handedly in lore and in TT, this cannot be the case in MWO. For this reason, you simply cannot make light mechs any slower, because it becomes too easy for everyone else to hit them and smash them instantly. Especially after the rescale, now that 35 tonners are huge glass cannons / paper tigers. If you decrease agility equally across the board, it will hurt the light mechs far more than the heavier mechs.

I also think the idea that horsepower = agility & speed is a load of crap. You have to take into consideration that physics don't work the same way for a 100 ton battlemech as a 100 kilogram person or a 100 gram lizard.



As you scale up, the effect seen above cannot be replicated. The fastest man alive isn't able to run on water, and there is no chance of designing human-sized androids that can actually run on water either. Because physics change from a micro scale to a macro scale. For example, a 100 ton Kodiak trying to make a U-turn in sand while going at 70 kph is going to have a hard time. Because when it plants one foot and places all of 100 tons of weight on that foot, it's going to respond differently than when a 20 ton mech does it, or a person does it, or a small reptile does it. You can't just scale everything up and expect everything to handle identically.

Also, I find it rather dumb to have torso twist so heavily related to the power of the fusion engine, when that sort of thing would realistically be much more dependent on the structure, actuators and myomers. Yes, the engine powers everything, but a bigger engine wouldn't make everything go faster, necessarily.

TL;DR - It makes no sense for agility to be so heavily related to engine rating. Heavy mechs and assault mechs need to be a lot more clumsy and cumbersome, especially the mechs with high engine rating. Being able to go fast does not necessarily equal insane acceleration (due to the unstable surfaces) or insane agility.

The game would benefit greatly if there was an agility nerf to heavies and assaults with a high engine rating. And for God's sake, lose some of those crazy agility quirks.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

I'm not saying there is crazy amounts of strategy in this game that put it on par with something like Dwarf Fortress, but this game does involve tactical thinking because that is what separates good players from the bad, not the mechlab or twitch ability.

Exactly, but that's not obvious for people.... especially when people look at something as meh as NASCAR... it's about how people understand it that makes a difference (not that I like the tactic - it's rather the PUG understanding is so "loose" it loses its original purpose).

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

No, it has less to do with capability and more to do with what they enjoy, because I know I wouldn't enjoy that sort of gameplay in a multiplayer game. I'm sure I could do it if I actually cared, but I doubt I would which is the point.


Yeah, sure it is that simple, that's why there is such a large skill gap between teams like EmP and those like CWI, SWOL, HHOD, etc.

I'm not saying there is crazy amounts of strategy in this game that put it on par with something like Dwarf Fortress, but this game does involve tactical thinking because that is what separates good players from the bad, not the mechlab or twitch ability.


I don't know if you noticed, but this is a game and most game mechanics tend to defy reality, cuz you know, it's a game. Game design and reality are not the best of friends.

So I guess you dont like FPS where your gun has recoil and CoF/spread over long bursts. Battlefield must never have been a game you liked to play? At least not BF1942, 2 or 2142. RTS games must have driven you bonkers then. They had alot of CoF. Men of War/Company of Heroes..not your cup of tea eh?

Really, its down to how well a person can focus fire with the most "meta" mech they can find. You wont find the "big name" clans/guilds, running around with non-meta builds. Not when they are doing anything serious. We dont have true "tactics and strategy" like Chain fire to manage heat, which is what I do and part of why I probably do so poorly. The whole "alpha strike" idea never sat well with me.

Heat management, its not really a feature in this game. Sure, we have magical systems like "Ghost heat" that somehow makes 18 heat become 48 heat because reasons....but the only real "heat system" is: Keep it below 100%. Heaven forbid we had heat penalties that actually affected the mech. Pilot passing out, mech performance decreasing, weapon's malfunctioning from over heat, increased cooldowns on weapons cuz they are to hot, mechs moving slower from over heat, screen/HUD flicker, ammo pops, yeah.....this game doesnt have a heat system. We dont even have to STOP firing like we do in most CoD/BF games, where guns over heat if you fire them for long periods of time. BF2? Your handheld LMGs both had ammo limits and HEAT. BF2142, your GANZ and LMGs there had ammo+Heat. It was a real chore and skill to make your LMG keep firing over long bursts, since you had to watch both heat, accuracy and ammo.

Then if you try to go off and flank a force, doesnt usually work because maps are small enough and everyone is conglomerated enough to where flanking is stuffed. Not like BF2 and 2142, where all those times I would go off alone with just me and my Ganz and flank clear into the back of a map and take a rear base, drawing off the front forces and opening up an opportunity to win. The amount of come back victories or come back losses I had and faced in BF2142 and such, that was where the fun was. There as strategy, tactics and skill involved in the wins. MWO, it really boils down to who meta mechs the best. Come backs are near impossible. Ive been on the team that got came back against like 2x, but pretty much pretty quick you can see who is going to win MWO games and even WoT/WOWS games. There isnt the fun long drawn out battles.

As for reality and games. No, thye arent the best of friends, but most games have elements in them that stick roughly to reality, in their own game mechanic kind of way. MWO has ignored everything pertaining to anything and just made this space type game. Where gravity isnt a thing, momentum and velocity isnt a thing. We can take turns just as easily at 120kph as we can at 30kph. We dont go careening into buildings in our light mechs. We have 30 ton machines that can traverse 15 tons of metal in 1/2 second time spans, then traverse 360 in fractions of a second.

Even CoD/BF and other FPS dont turn that fast, and those are human based shooters. You couldnt even turn yourself around in the time it takes to turn these light mechs around...not without probably getting put off balance and smacking into a wall. Or doing like a ballerina tiptoe twist around...be the only way even a RL human would turn that fast....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

So I guess you dont like FPS where your gun has recoil and CoF/spread over long bursts.

There is a reason those games have that, and it is to limit damage potential because most guns in those games have the ability to do enough damage in one clip to kill a person several times over. That or the spread is meant to limit the effective range of that weapon without relying solely on falloff (generally for rapid fire weapon) since the MW franchise is somewhat unique with the effective range for all weapons where all damage trails off (completely or with some leeway like MWO).

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

Even CoD/BF and other FPS dont turn that fast, and those are human based shooters.

Almost all FPS movement is ONLY limited by your equipment and mouse sensitivity, not by the actual game; so if you can't turn that fast in those games it is your own fault. Having played Overwatch a lot, I can say even lights in this game are not that twitchy compared to actual twitch games, so please stop trying to use them as some excuse for why lights should be slowed down and be even worse than they are now.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

Keep it below 100%. Heaven forbid we had heat penalties that actually affected the mech. Pilot passing out, mech performance decreasing, weapon's malfunctioning from over heat, increased cooldowns on weapons cuz they are to hot, mechs moving slower from over heat, screen/HUD flicker, ammo pops, yeah.....this game doesnt have a heat system.

None of those are relevant, at some point the risk of penalties becomes too high to be worth the extra reward, so it still acts as a binary choice, all you are really doing is effectively lowering the actual heat cap. Penalties can still be min-maxed and would even if we got a "true" heat system. The only real point of the heat system both in this game and in others, is to reign in damage output.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2016 - 11:47 AM.

[lagartx3]

Honestly, i feel they are way to agile in general, and there is some weird sense of scale... Being the Monstruosities they are supposed to be, that is

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeah, and games have recoil/CoF because recoil and CoF is a real world mechanic that affects EVERY weapon system. Its not just because of some arbitrary game mechanic. Its a real world mechanic that is translated into a game. Even Battletanks, planes and even BattleSHIPS are affected by "CoF" and Recoil. Its not just some arbitrary mechanic in place to control damage. It is used as a balance mechanic for guns, but thats not the sole reason it exists.

These battlemechs WOULD suffer from all the same issues, recoil, CoF, sway while running, movement and aiming penalties, delays in the targeting time, delays while your guns traverse and home in on the target you locked up.

The counter arguments against them, is once again "cuz it would break the meta", players just couldnt stand to deal with them in this game. Its not about it would break any class, naw, it would add a whole new dynamic to the game that players simply arent willing or are incapable of dealing with. To somehow have a 50 ton(About the weight of KV2 tank), firing a 203mm(AC20), and not suffering from recoil forces seems right to MWO players. Then to have a 60t(About the weight of a Tiger), rapidly firing off 40-50mm shells with no recoil force seems right. The ability to get hammered by those shells and not suffer anything but flashing, blinding lights, seems completely ok with MWo because it would break the meta to have actual recoil forces, CoF/Targeting computer delays and all that in place.

You all seem to think Battlemechs are like Gypsy Danger and no forces of nature apply to them. Somehow its all ok, because its the way its always been, its battletech, and lets just keep it that way cuz its fun. DOnt break our meta....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Yeah, and games have recoil/CoF because recoil and CoF is a real world mechanic that affects EVERY weapon system.

That JUST so happens to benefit gameplay as a mechanic to limit damage output and balance rapid fire weapons vs slow RoF and high damage weapons like sniper rifles; even if most of the time it isn't realistic since not every game implements spread or recoil as it should either, after all this is a simulation so a lot of realism is often cheated for simplicity or just because they don't know any better (truly random CoF which is probably the default for most FPS engines vs normal distribution CoF) or how recoil is handled: whether it has a true pattern like it does in CSGO or is just random (most other FPS I'm assuming), or only pulls up. Again, just like clip size and other things, it all boils down to controlling damage output in certain situations, not realism (realism is just a bonus).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2016 - 12:05 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

That JUST so happens to benefit gameplay as a mechanic to limit damage output and balance rapid fire weapons vs slow RoF and high damage weapons like sniper rifles; even if most of the time it isn't realistic since not every game implements spread or recoil as it should either, after all this is a simulation so a lot of realism is often cheated for simplicity or just because they don't know any better (truly random CoF which is probably the default for most FPS engines vs normal distribution CoF) or how recoil is handled: whether it has a true pattern like it does in CSGO or is just random (most other FPS I'm assuming), or only pulls up. Again, just like clip size and other things, it all boils down to controlling damage output in certain situations, not realism (realism is just a bonus).

Battlemechs would still suffer from it, in w/e form PGI chose to implement it. Im thinking single fire weapons like PPCs would fire straight ahead, based on the progression and speed of the targeting computer. If you waited until you got "solid tone" you would fire where you were pointing. If you just pulled the trigger, thats where we would see the wild all over the place shots. Even then, even if your mech got everything on target, it would still be jerked around by the different recoil forces of each weapon going off. So, even then, you wouldnt be pin point accurate like this game portrays.

The mechs in this game would have to adjust for the recoil of weapons after every shot we fired. Probably not for lasers or MGs, but for basically anything else, there would be recoil.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

Battlemechs would still suffer from it, in w/e form PGI chose to implement it. Im thinking single fire weapons like PPCs would fire straight ahead, based on the progression and speed of the targeting computer. If you waited until you got "solid tone" you would fire where you were pointing. If you just pulled the trigger, thats where we would see the wild all over the place shots. Even then, even if your mech got everything on target, it would still be jerked around by the different recoil forces of each weapon going off. So, even then, you wouldnt be pin point accurate like this game portrays.

The mechs in this game would have to adjust for the recoil of weapons after every shot we fired. Probably not for lasers or MGs, but for basically anything else, there would be recoil.

You are still adding mechanics because you think they should be there without any understanding of the implications of those changes, especially with regards to tactics, viability, or even how fun they are to play (which is a huge factor with any large change like that).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2016 - 12:20 PM.

[blood4blood]

All BT based games suffer from a severe disconnect with reality.

- Engine size matters for combustion engines. Fictional mechs are powered by miniature nukes. It's like comparing a whole-house generator (which often use car engines converted to run on other fuels) to the power plant that generates electricity for an entire city. The idea that a nuclear-reactor powered mech would ever run out of energy as long as the reactor is functioning is patently ludicrous. Size, mass, volume and quality of myomers, solenoids, hydraulics, etc. and their interface systems with the nuke engine should matter instead, as those would be the limiting factors on a mech's movement, not it's power supply.

- Leg length should directly equate to acceleration and top speed. Usain Bolt is 6'5", not 5'6".

- Turning and deceleration should factor in momentum, mass and centrifugal forces. Bigger mechs standing still would be about the same speed as lights in turning and twisting, but when running all-out a bigger mech with greater mass would likely turn more slowly (unless it's got so much myomer/nuke power to just muscle through the turns light an NFL tackle).

Humanoid vs bird-legged should matter in gait, speed, turning, etc. Most birds hop, and they're pretty slow and awkward on the ground.

So....realistically, the Locust should be a tiny, slow, hopping junk joke of a mech compared to sleek, smooth, fast power of a beast like a Kodiak or an Atlas.

So yeah, realism just won't work in a mech game, will it?

[Tibbnak]

^This is how fast and fluid ~100KPH used to be
Now it's gotta be a 2/3 of that at best.

[Flak Kannon]

Good question.

The last month I've only driven the Commando 3A and the Jenner Oxide almost exclusively.

Before that I was leveling the Ebon Jag line.

My thinking.


My COM 3A is fine. It is fast, its low on armor, so its amazing agility makes up for its lack of armor.It has a max engine size at XL240.

The Jenner is running XL255, so its max speed is 129 kph. This mech, at this engine size, with the re-scale feels lumbering. Not agile enough at that engine size. If I put anything bigger engine wise, I neuter its offensive ability too much.

The Ebon, engine locked, once its fully elite'd with double basics feel fine for a 65 ton mech, and perhaps on the highly agile side considering its mass.




If they nerf the agility of Bigger Mechs, the meta will wildly swing back to Coms and Locust and Mist Lynx, as the bigs could/would never be able to track their guns onto us, and the blow back would be, again, every one running Maddog/Crows/Huntsmans with max streaks boats to counter the light floods.

Meta will always follow the strongest.

I'd prefer they all stay the same. I like being the lone ship in the night in my smaller/lighter/faster, more agile mechs.


Enjoi

Edited by Flak Kannon, 27 October 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

You are still adding mechanics because you think they should be there without any understanding of the implications of those changes, especially with regards to tactics, viability, or even how fun they are to play (which is a huge factor with any large change like that).

So basically you guys want Warframe Parkour in your battlemech game.....ok lol.

I do know how it would change the game, recoil, it would make shots miss more, would slow people down, would space our their shots, damage out put would be lower, survivability across the board would increase. It would make lasers appealing because of low recoil, but you would suffer the higher heat penalties of them, where as ballistics/missiles would have recoil, but trip the heat penalties less often due to lower heat.

So you would have distinct trade offs. You go for that FIREALLMAHLAZORS!!! But now you just shut down half your weapons from over heat, yourmobility dropped through the floor, your pilot is now half fainting from the sudden jump in temperature and your mech is a mess from the overload in heat. So, sure, you dealt 60 damage, but now your ****** until your heat goes back to normal.

Or you deal with the recoil and ballistic elements of autocannons and spread of missiles to deal damage. Less heat, but now you have fewer guns, ammo limits and recoil/drop to worry about.

Aim time and targeting time, it would actually give validity to the R button that no one seems to like to push. It would give light mechs more survivability without having to have obscene Warframe Spaceninja like mobility. Flanking would be more viable, since it would be harder to get on target.

All these elements would make the game actually more difficult, yes, it would alter the playstyle of people form 2 fire groups, alpha the CT, to paying much more attention to various systems across the board. I know though, 2010 and beyond gamers dnt want that in a game. If they cant press W+LMB and the game forces them to think much beyond it, they simply CANT. Its why games like WOWS/WOT/MWO/AW all have the overwhelming amount of idiotic players in it. The game simply caters to that genre of player. The "better" players who can simply take the absurdly simplified mechanics and own the system just blow away all the lesser players who cannot even manage to handle the obscenely simplified nature of the game.

Adding those various mechanics would make each weapon and weapon type unique in its application and why you would pick it. There would be more to picking a weapon then just "damage/weight/space". You would think about why you want it, what the potential situations are. Just like in MEchcommander. Each mission, I would strip every mech and build my force around the mission at hand. I went from just "longrangeeverything", playing back when I was like 10, to actually breaking it down, thinking about what weapons I need on what mechs, what role each mech will play, how I want my force to interact and what will best suit the mission.......MWO needs that same thing. I hope HBS BAttletech incorporates systems and mechanics and gameplay that forces us to think more about every choice we make and not just "laser all the things cuz meta"....

[Tristan Winter]

blood4blood, on 27 October 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

So....realistically, the Locust should be a tiny, slow, hopping junk joke of a mech compared to sleek, smooth, fast power of a beast like a Kodiak or an Atlas.

If by "realistically" you mean "according to a very specific logic built upon cherry-picked arguments and examples", then yes. Absolutely.

Long legs = more speed

That's why giraffes are faster than cheetahs.

[FupDup]

Flak Kannon, on 27 October 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

If they nerf the agility of Bigger Mechs, the meta will wildly swing back to Coms and Locust and Mist Lynx...

"Back to" would imply that those mechs were once the meta.

They were not.

[Deathlike]

Trolololing Lolcusts was easy to do when they were first released.

Commandos remember.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 27 October 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

Trolololing Lolcusts was easy to do when they were first released.

Commandos remember.

But...my Lolcust once got the killing blow on your Commie.

[DAYLEET]

Lights could either be faster or torso twist faster or at greater angle. Not everything. Id like greater yaw degree over running speed or torso twist speed.

[Flak Kannon]

FupDup, on 27 October 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

"Back to" would imply that those mechs were once the meta.

They were not.

I disagree.

When the Artic Cheetah came out, it was THE mech, the strongest, very agile, small, and super tanky.

I'll go back further. When the Raven ECM was the best light in the game before the Clans came along. Or the Jenner. ..

I am referring to the meta in regards to lights eating larger mechs up. The Pop tart meta was a time where the guass ppc jumpjet trio allowed PPFLD to any mech and large distances and no matter how fast you were, so it didn't matter how agile or fast you were.


So.. I disagree. But my point was that there were various times a times when light mechs were the best mechs, and that is what I am say will happen again if they nerf the agility of 65-100 ton mechs.

That's all.


Enjoi

Edited by Flak Kannon, 27 October 2016 - 01:05 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

So basically you guys want Warframe Parkour in your battlemech game.....ok lol.

If you want to be hyperbolic sure, but this game is by no means fast paced or twitch, it just fast enough that it doesn't become a boring circle strafe contest at who has more armor or has the best DPS but is slower than typical twitch games like CSGO or Overwatch.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

I do know how it would change the game, recoil, it would make shots miss more, would slow people down, would space our their shots, damage out put would be lower, survivability across the board would increase.

You literally just described changing the pace of the game, which is a huge factor in what tactics are viable.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

So you would have distinct trade offs. You go for that FIREALLMAHLAZORS!!! But now you just shut down half your weapons from over heat, yourmobility dropped through the floor, your pilot is now half fainting from the sudden jump in temperature and your mech is a mess from the overload in heat.

Could you use a better example than an already outdated meta that is meh in the current environment due to new mechs and continued nerfs?

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

Aim time and targeting time, it would actually give validity to the R button that no one seems to like to push.

Pressing R is useful, the only reason people don't press R is because they aren't good, that's really all there is to it.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

All these elements would make the game actually more difficult, yes, it would alter the playstyle of people form 2 fire groups, alpha the CT, to paying much more attention to various systems across the board.

That isn't even the case currently. For example certain mechs are actually more advantageous to aim for the sides (Pokebear for example) so I need to know from the scouts what weapons he has. I need to know positions of any mechs before I poke because I don't want to expose myself to a firing line. I need to know where the enemy lights are so that if I flank I won't get immediately picked off. There is plenty to keep track of without a need for any of these worthless tack-ons, just none of them are related to aiming but why is that a problem? That means positioning matters which means situational awareness and tactical thinking are actually beneficial.

If this game is as simple as you claim, why aren't you at the top fighting against teams like mine (SJR), EmP, 228, etc?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2016 - 01:06 PM.