137 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 27 October 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

But...my Lolcust once got the killing blow on your Commie.

Commandant Trollmando will honor Herr Furher with the removal of all Lolcusts from the Motherland.

[1453 R]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

You all seem to think Battlemechs are like Gypsy Danger and no forces of nature apply to them. Somehow its all ok, because its the way its always been, its battletech, and lets just keep it that way cuz its fun. DOnt break our meta....

Stop.

Just stop.

You keep using the word 'meta' like a curse, and you keep talking about anyone who doesn't want the game to devolve into driving construction cranes with aftermarket black-powder cannons is a doddering idiot who can't figure out how to pull his pants on in the morning because the Evil Cheating Baby-Eating META has stolen their minds.

Stop. It.

Nobody wants the idiotic level of simulation you're talking about, where simply steering a 'Mech is nearly impossible, taking any turn of any degree at more than ten percent throttle at best is grounds for a fatal fall-and-skid, getting from zero to sixty is measured in minutes instead of seconds, and where it is literally, actually impossible to fire any weapon with any degree of accuracy greater than a poorly maintained Civil War musket.

That's not 'BattleTech'. That's dumbness. Even if that's what BattleTech means to you, I'm telling you, FanDragon - no one wants to play that game.

It has nothing to do with meta.

It has to do with the game being a satisfying experience to play.

Your version of MWO is not a game I want to play. it doesn't matter how smart or dumb or meta or non-meta I am - and since I'm intelligent enough to know what 'meta' means when you clearly don't, I'm going to claim the high ground there - what matters is this one simple fact.

It. Would. Not. Be. Fun.

Edited by 1453 R, 27 October 2016 - 01:11 PM.

[FupDup]

Flak Kannon, on 27 October 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

I disagree.

When the Artic Cheetah came out, it was THE mech, the strongest, very agile, small, and super tanky.

I'll go back further. When the Raven ECM was the best light in the game before the Clans came along. Or the Jenner. ..

I am referring to the meta in regards to lights eating larger mechs up. The Pop tart meta was a time where the guass ppc jumpjet trio allowed PPFLD to any mech and large distances and no matter how fast you were, so it didn't matter how agile or fast you were.

So.. I disagree. But my point was that there were various times a times when light mechs were the best mechs, and that is what I am say will happen again if they nerf the agility of 65-100 ton mechs.

That's all.


Enjoi

The Cheetah was the hands-down best LIGHT mech, but not the best mech in the game. The SCR/TBR/DWF were still the true top dogs at the time, although the ACH was only slightly behind them.

A light that was essentially equal to the best medium/heavy/assault could not be allowed in MWO.

The only time that lights were truly the best of all classes was during the Raven 3L lagshield days.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 27 October 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

The only time that lights were truly the best of all classes was during the Raven 3L lagshield days.

Well, that was due mostly in part to broken mechanics on multiple levels.

[Flak Kannon]

FupDup, on 27 October 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

The Cheetah was the hands-down best LIGHT mech, but not the best mech in the game. The SCR/TBR/DWF were still the true top dogs at the time, although the ACH was only slightly behind them.

A light that was essentially equal to the best medium/heavy/assault could not be allowed in MWO.

The only time that lights were truly the best of all classes was during the Raven 3L lagshield days.

Ill agree with everything you said there.

But I will say that it really did feel like the Cheetah was unstoppable early on and stronger than the Dire, TBR of the time, In my opinion ...

[Angel of Annihilation]

People forget this game is based on Battletech and as such if they read the lore at all, they would realize that mechs should be a hell of alot more agile than they are now. This human-like agility is why mechs made tanks obsolete. Hell there is even reference in the novels to non-jump capable mechs running up to tank and jumping up and down on them to crush them. By comparison, the mechs in MWO waddle around.

[Deathlike]

Flak Kannon, on 27 October 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

Ill agree with everything you said there.

But I will say that it really did feel like the Cheetah was unstoppable early on and stronger than the Dire, TBR of the time, In my opinion ...

Noone asked for the Arctic Cheetah to come pre-quirked to death (much more than the Spider at the time) on its initial release.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 27 October 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

Noone asked for the Arctic Cheetah to come pre-quirked to death (much more than the Spider at the time) on its initial release.

I think that the reason for it was that people complained about the Cauldron Born and Gladiator not having any quirks, thus the Shadowcat and Cheeto were launched with some.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 27 October 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

I think that the reason for it was that people complained about the Cauldron Born and Gladiator not having any quirks, thus the Shadowcat and Cheeto were launched with some.

Yes, leave it to our balance overlord to need crutches ahead of his actual ability... or lack thereof.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

If this game is as simple as you claim, why aren't you at the top fighting against teams like mine (SJR), EmP, 228, etc?

Do you really want me to answer that?

I dont play the game up that high because I dont find the game fun to play. Up until last year I didnt even have a PC that could play the game, so I had like 20-30FPS, and was doing really ******. Then, like June last year I got a better PC and was getting 40-50FPS. Since that time. My Win rate, climbed to where I think it rests now at 9 more wins then losses. My KDR climbed pretty steadily up to I think its sitting at like 1.34. My Warhawk Prime, the mech I play almost exclusively when I do play is up at like a 2.11 KDR and a very positive WL. IDK if you can look at my stats. I dont have thousands of games played, as I primarily find this game pretty boring overall.

PVP its alot of poke, shoot, poke, shoot, poke, shoot, hide from LRM swarms, poke, shoot, until 1 side decimates the other in a stunning 12-3, 12-5 game. Occasionally there are knock down, drag out, semi enjoyable fights that end in 8-12, 9-12, 10-12. Ive had, in the past, several fairly fun FW battles, one being a loss that was the most fun id ever had in this game up until that point.

There isnt that Battlefield 2142 style sneaking behind the enemy line and decimating them, bringing your team back from the brink of disaster. Every time ive tried to break off from the pack and do anything but follow the swarm it results in a double tap from a 8-12 CSPL carrying light from out of the blue. So, the game is pretty much, stay with the pack or die, and well, that makes for very boring gameplay...

Ive run with CWI a little bit ran with Gyroks clan a little bit. But at the end of the day, I dont find what I see to be enjoyable. I dont follow the meta, I dont build meta mechs, and therefore, my builds dont result in the "unicorn" level stats.

I love games like Company of Heroes, where the battles go on for an hour and there are alot of moments in there where its like "aww ****, were losing here", so I break out my book of tricks to bring the game back, or hold on just long enough to stabilize the line. None of that in MWO/WoT/WOWS/AW.....I dont like games like ArmA where it is 100% odd simulator, but games like IL2, with more simplified controls, thats about as sim as I like. If MWO ever became at least as simulator as IL2, yeah, id probably have alot of fun with that. If MWO ever got PVE mission elements and PVE Campaigns, that were more then just "camp this spot" id prolly have alot of fun with it. BUt the 5 minute PVP TDMs, naw, not fun at all.

I mean, almost every game ive played since getting my new PC last year, yeah, ive put up at least 1 kill a game, and, unless the team dies in like 2 1/2 minutes, I can put up 500+ damage. Ive had Mining Collective game where my entire ******* team was dead before my Warhawk even got to the middle of the map. And yeah, there is that kinda **** that im tired of putting up in PVP games in general. MightyJingles on youtube, his "The good the bad and ugly" series, **** like that is also a major part of why I dont play PVP games. Ive put up with that **** in PVP for long enough and my tolerance for it is so far beyond gone...

I recently played a game in the KDK1, after it went on sale. I dont think I got a kill, but I did put up like 750 damage in a 7-12 loss using my 8CML 1LRM15 1UAC10 build. Like I said, I dont use meta builds. I do believe I was among the top scorers on my team. In fact, im pretty sure I was #1-3. So, yeah, I dont play cuz I dont like the game, not cuz I cant play it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

PVP its alot of poke, shoot, poke, shoot, poke, shoot, hide from LRM swarms, poke, shoot, until 1 side decimates the other in a stunning 12-3, 12-5 game. Occasionally there are knock down, drag out, semi enjoyable fights that end in 8-12, 9-12, 10-12. Ive had, in the past, several fairly fun FW battles, one being a loss that was the most fun id ever had in this game up until that point.

Expecting PUGs to play as a team and hoping you are playing against another coordinated team is part of your problem. Certain tactics/strategies just aren't plausible without a coordinated effort, which is the antithesis of PUGs for the most part. This is why solo queue and even group queue at times is different from comp play, because you are basically only getting to play a subset of the game because things like extreme range and brawl pushes take more coordination than the average PUG team ever has. This is why the deathball is a solo/group queue only sort of thing, deathballs are actually bad in situations in comp. Comp is actually more about concave firing lines than it is deathballs, which sometimes leads into NASCAR but it depends on the situation.

As far as being sneaky and being able to turn the tide in battle, that is because TTK is high enough that you can't easily pick off key players unless you are running specific builds (kiss of death Jenner IIC), it has nothing to do with aiming and everything to do with the ability to get quick consecutive picks. So what you should be pushing for is an even lower TTK if that's what you really want.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

I recently played a game in the KDK1, after it went on sale. I dont think I got a kill, but I did put up like 750 damage in a 7-12 loss using my 8CML 1LRM15 1UAC10 build. Like I said, I dont use meta builds. I do believe I was among the top scorers on my team. In fact, im pretty sure I was #1-3. So, yeah, I dont play cuz I dont like the game, not cuz I cant play it.

That really doesn't say anything, I mean McGral has gotten 1000+ damage in a Mist Lynx, being good isn't always about putting up numbers. Though doing it consistently if definitely a good sign, but not necessarily a good indicator if you are constantly playing spuds.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Expecting PUGs to play as a team and hoping you are playing against another coordinated team is part of your problem. Certain tactics/strategies just aren't plausible without a coordinated effort, which is the antithesis of PUGs for the most part. This is why solo queue and even group queue at times is different from comp play, because you are basically only getting to play a subset of the game because things like extreme range and brawl pushes take more coordination than the average PUG team ever has. This is why the deathball is a solo/group queue only sort of thing, deathballs are actually bad in situations in comp. Comp is actually more about concave firing lines than it is deathballs, which sometimes leads into NASCAR but it depends on the situation.

As far as being sneaky and being able to turn the tide in battle, that is because TTK is high enough that you can't easily pick off key players unless you are running specific builds (kiss of death Jenner IIC), it has nothing to do with aiming and everything to do with the ability to get quick consecutive picks. So what you should be pushing for is an even lower TTK if that's what you really want.


That really doesn't say anything, I mean McGral has gotten 1000+ damage in a Mist Lynx, being good isn't always about putting up numbers. Though doing it consistently if definitely a good sign, but not necessarily a good indicator if you are constantly playing spuds.

This is true, Pugs are horrific. Though it was always pug groups in BF series. I usually took advantage of the fact it WAS a pug group to generally out play them all and rake in the hackusations, the bans for "cheating" which I never do in Multiplayer games. Ive im going to increase the size of my Epeen its going to be all natural.

The tactics I used actually worked remarkably well on pug groups. Get them focused on the main group while I would push around, sneak up, shoot the stragglers, flank the main group, **** em in the *** until one of them woke up and shot me. Or, id just go into the back and capture a base. BF2142, Camp Gibraltar, one of the most corridor/campy, miserable maps, I countless times, snuck clear into the back with my brother, and him and I had many times where it was us 2 in the back, trying to hold on for dear life, hoping our main force could make a break out......Berlin, id sneak around the one flank, sometimes it would work, sometimes it wouldnt. Use my Support Hack IDS, Ganz HMG(Which I fell in love with despite hating at first), and with my bro, sometimes my uncle and dad, we could really kick some ***. Many fun times were had. The 30-45 minute-1 hour long games...those are fun.

MWO, its all this super fast paced, games over in 5 minutes, where there is no time for anything to develop. Even FW, its just a series of funnels forcing 2 groups to corner hump each other....ive played many FW maps across different maps, attacker, defender.....its reaally no fun either way. Either you stuff them at the gate, or they just waltz in and win. All the maps in FW are JUST like BF2142 Camp Gibraltar with 0 chance of being able to flank around, since the only approach is through 2 narrow *** gates, where 12 mechs are watching.....

Ran with CWI a few times, it was basically 1 big deathball, we rolled in, shot up some stuff, shot up the reinforcements, shot up the gens, shot up the gun and it was over before there was even a chance for anything to happen. Or, we rolled in and got rolled, with no real chance of a come back....and just the whole way the game plays I find boring.

Not like the few CoH battles I played with my Uncle, dad and I. One we played vs 3 Hard AI, it literally lasted like 5-6-7 IDK how long, but when it ended, it was 6am.....it was the most vicious battle ever. Another battle, AI had us clear into our base, destroying our HQ, and we were fighting for our lives, when ultimately, my Uncle dropped some Tetrarchs in the base and bought us the time required to rebuild and counter attack.....fun **** like that....just doesnt happen in this game.

And if people wonder why im still even around the forums, its cuz im hoping PGI releases some PVE soon.....its all ive been waiting for since 2009.

THere was ALOT of fun times had. MWO, it lacks any of that. In Comp games, its alot of meta stuff. Ive watched 12v12 clan v clan videos on youtube, it looks alot like Deathballing around, murdering everything, and its more just a complete streetsweep, then any kind of actual fight.

[blood4blood]

Tristan Winter, on 27 October 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

If by "realistically" you mean "according to a very specific logic built upon cherry-picked arguments and examples", then yes. Absolutely.

Long legs = more speed

That's why giraffes are faster than cheetahs.

Logical fallacy in your argument: mechs are modeled on birds and people, not cheetahs or giraffes (not to mention giraffes are designed top-heavy but still run faster than the fastest human). Make a quad and you can get your cheetah. Make a bigger cheetah quad and it'll be faster.

This is more to the point anyway: http://www.livescien...mph-theory.html "The new work shows that running speed limits are set by the contractile speed limits of the muscle fibers themselves, with fiber contractile speeds setting the limit on how quickly the runner's limb can apply force to the running surface."

Myomers.

[Tristan Winter]

blood4blood, on 27 October 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

Logical fallacy in your argument: mechs are modeled on birds and people, not cheetahs or giraffes (not to mention giraffes are designed top-heavy but still run faster than the fastest human). Make a quad and you can get your cheetah. Make a bigger cheetah quad and it'll be faster.
This is more to the point anyway: http://www.livescien...mph-theory.html "The new work shows that running speed limits are set by the contractile speed limits of the muscle fibers themselves, with fiber contractile speeds setting the limit on how quickly the runner's limb can apply force to the running surface."
Myomers.

I don't understand how anyone so eloquent can make such a flawed argument. You point out yourself that there are other factors involved (such as giraffes being top heavy), so it's obviously not as simple as just measuring the length of legs.

But for some reason this rule of "long legs = more speed" only works with bipedal creatures? Because that fits with your Bolt analogy? What about horses? Are those top heavy? Obviously, the length of the legs is closely related to speed, but there are so many other factors.

I don't have time for this. There's literally zero chance of us learning anything or otherwise benefiting from having this discussion.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 27 October 2016 - 03:33 PM.

[Belacose]

Almost perfect just the way it is now.

Then again having only been here since April it's all I've ever known.

[Johnny Z]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

So you want mediums and lights to be super worthless? The Mauler is still probably the second strongest assault and still one of the strongest mechs in the game and you want to nerf its competitors in the lighter weight classes, just lol.

No everything would have to slow down a touch. Like a match replay played at 95% speed or something like that. Maybe even 96% or something hardly any different just a slight step in the sim direction.

The game should be tested exactly like that, replays at different %. See what looks best.

This would even help with lag and that's a really really good thing.

Balance and game play is really good right now, but some of the old replays near beta time look better and more Battletech. The game was slightly slower back then in general.

Some of the Clan mechs are still OP also. Way to fast and agile. Way. I still wont pilot a Timberwolf in theory, I am Inner Sphere anyway, but I wouldn't because it stinks of easy mode still. Arctic Cheddar as well.

The Dire Wolf is one of the best looking mechs to watch exactly because it actually moves like it is 100 tons, or close to it.

Personally I refuse to build any of my heavies or assaults with big engines, because the sim is that important and I simply wont ruin it by building mechs like that. Really.

By the way the Mauler is maybe the second strongest mech in the game in the hands of a hacker, not a legit player. So rethink your entire balance perspective and get real.

I have seen a Warhammer blow out the rear side torso of 5 mechs from the front in a match and that does not make the Warhammer OP.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 October 2016 - 04:11 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Johnny Z, on 27 October 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

No everything would have to slow down a touch. Like a match replay played at 95% speed or something like that. Maybe even 96% or something hardly any different just a slight step in the sim direction.

That isn't what he was talking about, I was not talking to you, I was talking to the person who said lights and mediums should have the agility of a Warhawk, which is to say more like 50% speed not 95%.

[Johnny Z]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

That isn't what he was talking about, I was not talking to you, I was talking to the person who said lights and mediums should have the agility of a Warhawk, which is to say more like 50% speed not 95%.

Ya I went on a bit, but my main point is that some lights may actually be to fast, but if everything slowed down a touch it wouldn't hurt balance. It may improve it. Assaults wouldn't be able to track as fast as now to compensate for light mechs going slightly slower.

These are 20 ton mechs at the lightest after all. The sim is suffering without any doubt to one degree or another.

100 tonners? There has been no real world 100 ton tank to my knowledge because they would be so slow and lumbering and get stuck easily. Fitting a 100 tonner on a transport truck prohibits it if nothing else. This is a sci-fi true, but some of the heaviest mechs do not act like it even for a sci-fi.

Lag shielding is one of the worste things about game play. If it helped that at all its worth it.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 October 2016 - 04:29 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

MWO, its all this super fast paced, games over in 5 minutes, where there is no time for anything to develop.

Are you seriously comparing game with respawn and their match length to those in MWO which are no respawn, because I can assure you 5 minutes is long by CS:GO standards especially if you are only counting actual engagements rather than the typical quiet period while everyone is getting setup. Sure a match in a respawn game like say Overwatch is longer, because it has respawn, but the individual skirmishes (like if it were no respawn) are short, much shorter than even the quickest MWO matches.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

In Comp games, its alot of meta stuff. Ive watched 12v12 clan v clan videos on youtube, it looks alot like Deathballing around, murdering everything, and its more just a complete streetsweep, then any kind of actual fight.

You watched some videos, I've actually played in them, I can assure you you are being quite a bit hyperbolic.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

That isn't what he was talking about, I was not talking to you, I was talking to the person who said lights and mediums should have the agility of a Warhawk, which is to say more like 50% speed not 95%.

His tangents feel either intentional (avoiding the topic) or unintentional (maybe it's ADD or something). It doesn't matter either way... given that it feels more like "ignorance is bliss" type of well.