137 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Johnny Z, on 27 October 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

Ya I went on a bit, but my main point is that some lights may actually be to fast, but if everything slowed down a touch it wouldn't hurt balance. It may improve it.

It will do no such thing because lights are hands down the worst class in the game so it won't improve balance whatsoever. If you want to improve balance then start with the KDK-3 and work your way down the totem pole of top mechs, but lights are not anywhere near the top of that pole.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Johnny Z, on 27 October 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

Ya I went on a bit, but my main point is that some lights may actually be to fast, but if everything slowed down a touch it wouldn't hurt balance. It may improve it. Assaults wouldn't be able to track as fast as now to compensate for light mechs going slightly slower.

These are 20 ton mechs at the lightest after all. The sim is suffering without any doubt to one degree or another.

100 tonners? There has been no real world 100 ton tank to my knowledge because they would be so slow and lumbering and get stuck easily. This is a sci-fi true, but some of the heaviest mechs do not act like it even for a sci-fi.

There has been a 130ish ton tank, the Maus. It got built. It was so impractical it was never used. The one model is somewhere in a museum. Beyond that, the heaviest tank I think is the M1A2 at like 72 tons, or King Tiger at around 75t.

[Johnny Z]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

It will do no such thing because lights are hands down the worst class in the game so it won't improve balance whatsoever. If you want to improve balance then start with the KDK-3 and work your way down the totem pole of top mechs, but lights are not anywhere near the top of that pole.

I play lights and fast mechs a lot. Almost exclusively lately to get around the field quickly. The rescale didn't hurt, and the reducing of skill tree bonuses didn't hurt either.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

It will do no such thing because lights are hands down the worst class in the game so it won't improve balance whatsoever. If you want to improve balance then start with the KDK-3 and work your way down the totem pole of top mechs, but lights are not anywhere near the top of that pole.

Naw, its the same basic problem in AW, where "MBTs" dominate. Problem is the only real goal in the game is to kill the other guy. There is no reason to go anywhere else, but right into the action with the biggest gun, biggest tank/mech and shoot the enemy to pieces. There is nothing in the game that plays to the strengths of the lighter mechs. Not once the **** ball starts rolling anyway.

If people want lights to be viable in their own right, PGI would need to pretty much combine all the game modes into 1 on maps about twice the size of current ones. Give each team clear objectives, where you cant just hump a hill, a corner or otherwise. Where your bigger mechs HAVE to move around, and maps being big enough to where the lights can do thier duty. The purpose of a light isnt to tank, its backstabbing, capping, flanking, harassment. So, naturally, in a game world, where the only true goal is the put up the bigger numbers, ofc the smaller mechs will be the worst.

[Johnny Z]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

There has been a 130ish ton tank, the Maus. It got built. It was so impractical it was never used. The one model is somewhere in a museum. Beyond that, the heaviest tank I think is the M1A2 at like 72 tons, or King Tiger at around 75t.

There is likely 100 ton + tanks around but they aint going anywhere Not far anyway. If they did they would need special off road truck transports, which would be massive. Transport trucks alone are obviously limiting design in a hard locked sort of way. Transport trucks are most likely in fact the one thing tanks are being designed around these days, on the max weight and size side anyway. Big subject.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 October 2016 - 04:37 PM.

[Deathlike]

Johnny Z, on 27 October 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

I play lights and fast mechs a lot. Almost exclusively lately to get around the field quickly. The rescale didn't hurt, and the reducing of skill tree bonuses didn't hurt either.

This I don't believe for a second. Even if it is the case, it's not at a high enough level.

[Johnny Z]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:

Naw, its the same basic problem in AW, where "MBTs" dominate. Problem is the only real goal in the game is to kill the other guy. There is no reason to go anywhere else, but right into the action with the biggest gun, biggest tank/mech and shoot the enemy to pieces. There is nothing in the game that plays to the strengths of the lighter mechs. Not once the **** ball starts rolling anyway.

If people want lights to be viable in their own right, PGI would need to pretty much combine all the game modes into 1 on maps about twice the size of current ones. Give each team clear objectives, where you cant just hump a hill, a corner or otherwise. Where your bigger mechs HAVE to move around, and maps being big enough to where the lights can do thier duty. The purpose of a light isnt to tank, its backstabbing, capping, flanking, harassment. So, naturally, in a game world, where the only true goal is the put up the bigger numbers, ofc the smaller mechs will be the worst.

Slow the game down by 3% makes the maps 3% larger.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Johnny Z, on 27 October 2016 - 04:34 PM, said:

There is likely 100 ton + tanks around but they aint going anywhere Not far anyway. If they did they would need special off road truck transports, which would be massive. Transport trucks alone are obviously limiting design in a hard locked sort of way. Transport trucks are most likely in fact the one thing tanks are being designed around these days, on the max weight and size side anyway. Big subject.

No, 100 ton tanks are completely impractical at every level, the Maus was like the last one ever even dreamed up by any nation that I know of. The amount of material to build one, the price of it, and the fact that no infrastructure and actually support one. Not by today's standards. PLus the fuel that it would guzzle......plus, the ease with which it would ultimately be destroyed...

Maybe in Battletech era, a 100t tank works because, well, we have infrastructure to support Warships hundreds of stories high, and battlemechs 30-50 feet tall and probably power those tanks with the same Fusion Reactors as the mechs.....since Diesels and crap wouldnt even budge it...

[Johnny Z]

Deathlike, on 27 October 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

This I don't believe for a second. Even if it is the case, it's not at a high enough level.

Of course it made a difference, but they are entirely playable.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Johnny Z, on 27 October 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

Slow the game down by 3% makes the maps 3% larger.

Combine FW, Conquest, Assault all into 1 game mode. Call it Domination lol.

Each side gets a base. Each player gets limited respawns(Yes drop decks in all modes), and across the map, is "strategic locations", basically battlefield meets Battletech. Armored Warfare just released "Global Ops" basically Tanks meet BF. I havent played it, but from what ive seen thats what it amounts to. Then, in addition to the locations each team has to capture, there is the main base of each team that can be destroyed. Turrets, command buildings, the like, all can be destroyed.

Victory conditions go to the team that destroyed the enemy team's base, regardless of tickets and kills, or the team with the most tickets at games end. Battles would be a fixed 30 minutes. Maps would be 50% larger. Some, like Canyon would be twice the size of now.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Johnny Z, on 27 October 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

I play lights and fast mechs a lot. Almost exclusively lately to get around the field quickly. The rescale didn't hurt, and the reducing of skill tree bonuses didn't hurt either.

Then you are blissfully ignorant, because lights most definitely have suffered since the rescale, outside of the Cheetah.

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:

Naw, its the same basic problem in AW, where "MBTs" dominate.

Objectives aren't need to make lights magically viable not to mention if combat isn't their role in some sort of fashion, they become boring to play, just look at FPS games with healers and how they have tried to make them more interesting to actually get people to play them. The reason they aren't viable right now is they sacrifice too much firepower/armor to get the speed they do have. The speed is useful, just not with the limited firepower/survivability they currently have to deal with.

[RestosIII]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

No, 100 ton tanks are completely impractical at every level, the Maus was like the last one ever even dreamed up by any nation that I know of. The amount of material to build one, the price of it, and the fact that no infrastructure and actually support one. Not by today's standards. PLus the fuel that it would guzzle......plus, the ease with which it would ultimately be destroyed...

Maybe in Battletech era, a 100t tank works because, well, we have infrastructure to support Warships hundreds of stories high, and battlemechs 30-50 feet tall and probably power those tanks with the same Fusion Reactors as the mechs.....since Diesels and crap wouldnt even budge it...

God, the Maus was such an era specific design. If it had been put into major production, like they had wanted, DURING WWII, it would have decimated the Allies. But fast forward to the 60's, and it would have been worthless because of advancements in planes and rocketry. Not even touching up on the hilarity known as the Ratte.


Oh, right, Battletech. Yeah, I sadly know nothing about Battletech armored vehicles, and not much about the air forces, so I have nothing of real value to say in that regard.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

Then you are blissfully ignorant, because lights most definitely have suffered since the rescale, outside of the Cheetah.

...Which was made weaker by the quirk nerfs that accompanied the rescale. :\

[Johnny Z]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

Combine FW, Conquest, Assault all into 1 game mode. Call it Domination lol.

Each side gets a base. Each player gets limited respawns(Yes drop decks in all modes), and across the map, is "strategic locations", basically battlefield meets Battletech. Armored Warfare just released "Global Ops" basically Tanks meet BF. I havent played it, but from what ive seen thats what it amounts to. Then, in addition to the locations each team has to capture, there is the main base of each team that can be destroyed. Turrets, command buildings, the like, all can be destroyed.

Victory conditions go to the team that destroyed the enemy team's base, regardless of tickets and kills, or the team with the most tickets at games end. Battles would be a fixed 30 minutes. Maps would be 50% larger. Some, like Canyon would be twice the size of now.

Its a great idea.

The new Battlefield 1 has an "operations" mode that joins entire battles together making matches go on for an hour or so. Extremely popular they say.

For the sim if one side had a dropship like others have mentioned its even better.

There is so much that can be done and the new Battlefield did some of it.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

Then you are blissfully ignorant, because lights most definitely have suffered since the rescale, outside of the Cheetah.


Objectives aren't need to make lights magically viable not to mention if combat isn't their role in some sort of fashion, they become boring to play, just look at FPS games with healers and how they have tried to make them more interesting to actually get people to play them. The reason they aren't viable right now is they sacrifice too much firepower/armor to get the speed they do have. The speed is useful, just not with the limited firepower/survivability they currently have to deal with.

Hes right the advantages of lights are not being used as much as they could be used. If its all about firepower then lights will always be at a disadvantage, viable or not. They are still viable at this time.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 October 2016 - 04:46 PM.

[Johnny Z]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

No, 100 ton tanks are completely impractical at every level, the Maus was like the last one ever even dreamed up by any nation that I know of. The amount of material to build one, the price of it, and the fact that no infrastructure and actually support one. Not by today's standards. PLus the fuel that it would guzzle......plus, the ease with which it would ultimately be destroyed...

Maybe in Battletech era, a 100t tank works because, well, we have infrastructure to support Warships hundreds of stories high, and battlemechs 30-50 feet tall and probably power those tanks with the same Fusion Reactors as the mechs.....since Diesels and crap wouldnt even budge it...

There is 100 ton + tanks around today if for no other reason than to draw fire.

[LordKnightFandragon]

RestosIII, on 27 October 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

God, the Maus was such an era specific design. If it had been put into major production, like they had wanted, DURING WWII, it would have decimated the Allies. But fast forward to the 60's, and it would have been worthless because of advancements in planes and rocketry. Not even touching up on the hilarity known as the Ratte.


Oh, right, Battletech. Yeah, I sadly know nothing about Battletech armored vehicles, and not much about the air forces, so I have nothing of real value to say in that regard.

Put the Maus into major production!? Much like how the 262 was supposed to decimate the Allied Airforce? Or the STG44 was supposed to be dominate, or the Tiger was supposed to dominate?

Had the Maus been put into major production Germany woulda run outta materials building the things. Not to mention, its not like Germany woulda even had the fuel to power it, and it wouldnt even be able to get out of Berlin...never mind driving across France, Netherlands. I watched a video that said its fuel economy was like 12 gallons per quarter mile or something obscenely mind bogglingly bad.

If the Allieds met one, sure, it would kill w/e is immediately around it, but the Allies woulda just backed up, and either called in the mother of all arty strikes or called up 8th AF and bombed it into the 8th wonder of the world, calling it "Maus Factory Crater"....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Johnny Z, on 27 October 2016 - 04:48 PM, said:

Hes right the advantages of lights are not being used as much as they could be used. If its all about firepower then lights will always be at a disadvantage, viable or not.

It will always be about some sort of firepower, that is why we come to play this game, not to run off and go sit on a cap the whole match, not to scout for the team the whole match, but to shoot stuff. Anyone who thinks that roles that don't involve some sort of combat are going to be popular and generally more viable outside of some bogus mechanic or being a healer is deluding themselves.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

Then you are blissfully ignorant, because lights most definitely have suffered since the rescale, outside of the Cheetah.


Objectives aren't need to make lights magically viable not to mention if combat isn't their role in some sort of fashion, they become boring to play, just look at FPS games with healers and how they have tried to make them more interesting to actually get people to play them. The reason they aren't viable right now is they sacrifice too much firepower/armor to get the speed they do have. The speed is useful, just not with the limited firepower/survivability they currently have to deal with.

Head to head combat is not the role of a light. At least not against the heavier units. Light unit combat is the flanker. He fights other lights, he kills off the unsupported Catapult in the back, he backstabs the brain dead Assault. He shoots off or finishes off the damaged, retreating heavy lance. There is PLENTY of combat for a light mech, but the current combat doesnt last long enough, nor is there enough objectives to get people to spread out to allow for a proper opening for lights to shine.

Sure, you have light mechearly on who does backstab the lone heavy, or ***** the clueless Catapult, but as a whole, yeah, Lights dont have a true niche to fill in current MWO combat. The corner humping, poke and shoot meta....naw, lights have no place there. I see lights always running around, in and out of terrain, drawing off people to "chase the squirrel" as ive seen it called, or "suiscouting" 20 seconds into the game.

What an Objective based game mode would do is spread the team out, it would get people moving, it would open up windows of opportunity for lights. Instead of everyone NASCARing a mountain, or corner humping mountain, players would be moving around the map vying for control of said objective.

I swear, do players even look at games beyond their damage/guns/armor? Ya'll claim im the one going off on tangents....ya'll dont even seem to understand the game past the guns on your mech and how much damage they can out put....

Lights are the worst because they cant stand up in a toe to toe, gun on gun fight, and ya'll dont look at all the reasons why its like that, or different things that could easily remedy that, honestly, making the game more fun all the way around.

[Lyoto Machida]

Davegt27, on 27 October 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

the idea of speed and agility are relative terms

so what I mean by that is on the testing grounds the slowest Mech works fine being a slow lumbering beast

but you put that same slow Mech in game and its so slow it cant defend its self and just becomes a big target


I would balance the speed and agility by weight class

the test for balance is can you track Mechs as they circle, you want the lower class Mech to stay just out of the kill zone

so for example a shadow hawk (55 ton) could just stay with a locust
this makes the shadow hawk pilot feel like his Mech is not totally useless but also lets the Locust pilot live (if he/she is good)

this would be the agility balance you need in the game
the agility balance is a bit off in this game

you want the higher weight class Mechs to either have a chance or at least feel like they have a chance in a fight
if you don't you will soon stop using that Mech

the Huntsman is so slow (or has so slow agility it cant get out of its own way)
the Huntsman has size and armor of a medium but has the agility of a heavy Mech
this can be a death sentence on the battlefield

hope this makes sense

The problem with MWO is that speed and agility are tied together due to engine size (and this doesn't even account for torso twisting). In real life, you'd usually have to make some sort of a trade off:

Fast, but not agile:




Agile, but not fast:

[Johnny Z]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

It will always be about some sort of firepower, that is why we come to play this game, not to run off and go sit on a cap the whole match, not to scout for the team the whole match, but to shoot stuff. Anyone who thinks that roles that don't involve some sort of combat are going to be popular and generally more viable outside of some bogus mechanic or being a healer is deluding themselves.

Fine but that's a different subject than if lights are viable or not. A good light pilot in a mastered and geared mech has no problem doing well in a match, even for its smaller weight.

That its speed and size is for combat only mostly and not for scouting is something the game is missing to a degree.