164 replies to this topic

[BuckshotSchell]

Give the IS something comparable, and/or return the quirks from a year or more ago.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

Doesn't matter. Any analyst worth his salt knows that correlation and causation don't necessarily coincide with one another, especially when the sample is not reflective of the population.

One sample being not reflective of the overall population is irrelevant when a majority of the population may not even be able to reason why it is so strong or why it is the best mech.

When the top teams are always taking 2 of the same mech, the conclusion has been made by all those teams that it is the best option for them to win a match, there is no problem with correlation =/= causation because teams will only take what will give them the best chances of winning, that is your causation. Other games do this to help determine outliers with regards to game balance, it isn't like this is something new. Overwatch used competitive tourney stats before they had a ranked mode to determine what to balance, like when McCree was constantly being taken in pairs because he was just that strong.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 November 2016 - 09:21 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

1453 R, on 02 November 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

So...hammering the Kodiak chassis to the nigh-unusable levels of the oft-derided "broken waist" BLR-1G is a 'reasonable starting point'? As in we're going to keep smashing it after that, too? How long did people kvetch about how the Battlemaster didn't deserve Battlemaster-level inability-to-twist?

At this point, the KDK-3 folks are honestly starting to remind me of a particular Smiting Prayers nerf back in Guild Wars 1, where the devs hit a skill so incredibly hard they outright, nakedly admitted without any attempt at obfuscation "we're making these changes with the intent of removing [Skill] from use in competitive play. We know that's a hard road to take, and it's not going to be popular with the players, but this skill was a mistake, and we really only have one way to correct it."

Is that where we're going here? Ladle out arc reductions, pitch reductions, hardpoint reductions, negative structure quirks, negative agility quirks, negative ballistic quirks, so on and so forth, until the KDK-3 has been removed from MWO without actually giving players cause to bonk Piranha over taking their money for a product that is later un-delivered?

Well, *I*, personally, dont want it hammered down too bad, not even to the level of the best clan assault prior to its introduction. I do want it toned back, and i DO NOT want negative quirks on it, so reduing torso arc and removing structure quirks is a good way to go, since there is actually nothing else to be done - and then i want other Clan assaults to be buffed so they are a reasonable alternative. (And IS assaults to get their quirks back)

i DO NOT want to go back to the stage before the KDK-3 was released where taking an Assault in a Clan dropdeck was idiocy.

[Gas Guzzler]

1453 R, on 02 November 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

So...hammering the Kodiak chassis to the nigh-unusable levels of the oft-derided "broken waist" BLR-1G is a 'reasonable starting point'? As in we're going to keep smashing it after that, too? How long did people kvetch about how the Battlemaster didn't deserve Battlemaster-level inability-to-twist?

At this point, the KDK-3 folks are honestly starting to remind me of a particular Smiting Prayers nerf back in Guild Wars 1, where the devs hit a skill so incredibly hard they outright, nakedly admitted without any attempt at obfuscation "we're making these changes with the intent of removing [Skill] from use in competitive play. We know that's a hard road to take, and it's not going to be popular with the players, but this skill was a mistake, and we really only have one way to correct it."

Is that where we're going here? Ladle out arc reductions, pitch reductions, hardpoint reductions, negative structure quirks, negative agility quirks, negative ballistic quirks, so on and so forth, until the KDK-3 has been removed from MWO without actually giving players cause to bonk Piranha over taking their money for a product that is later un-delivered?

If you want Piranha to yank the KDK-3, then man up and say you want them to yank the KDK-3. Don't keep up with this ridiculous "we don't want to cripple it, we just want to tap it down a bit" bullscheissen.

Yes, you absolutely want to cripple it. It, and every other Kodiak in the game. And every Executioner, Dire Whale, and Highlander IIC in the game too, while we're at it. Don't prevaricate like that. It p!sses me off.


Don't fib, McGral. We all know the KDK-3 Pwn Train folks have absolutely no problem whatsoever with Piranha smashing the entire chassis into useless garbage right alongside the "reasonable starting point" megagigagagglenerfs everyone keeps proposing for the KDK-3. And the Executioner, and the Whale, and the Highlander-IIC, and possibly even the Gargoyle. Definitely the Marauder-IIC in a couple of months, and absolutely the Supernova a couple of months after that.

Gotta make sure the KDK-3 Problem never happens again, after all. Reducing every Clan fatbro to roughly the same combat effectiveness level as a stock Zeus should just 'bout do it, hm?


I'm not saying the KDK-3 is balanced.

I'm saying that there's not a single damn soul in this entire snakepit that's interested in 'balancing' the KDK-3. They don't want it 'tapped down'. They don't want it 'dialed back a bit'. They don't want it 'brought in line'.

They want it to have its pitch cut in half, its twist arc chopped down to 40 degrees - not 40 degrees to either side, 40 degrees total - they want it hit with double-digits red structure quirks, they want its engine rating cut down to 300, they want its energy hardpoints removed. They want five slots in each side torso to just vanish into the aether.

You all want all of that, at once. You want Piranha to nerf the KDK-3 square out of MWO, just like that old Smiting skill in GW1 that was openly removed-from-play level nerfed up.

That bothers me. It bothers me that every discussion about the KDK-3 basically boils down to "let's remove its quirks, cut its twist arcs in half, remove its ability to pitch altogether, and use that as a start point. We'll continue nerfing from there as the Hive Mind deems appropriate, and also diffuse those changes across the entire Clan assault classification because the Mauler should always be the indisputable and inarguable best assault 'Mech in the game, yo."

You guys are going to get the entire Kodiak chassis buttplugged - again. Most of them are already mediocre at best. And frankly, I find the notion of hitting a 'Mech so hard it's effectively removed from MWO to be a very bad, very ugly precedent we don't need to be setting.

Where would we be if they'd done that for any of the other 'Mechs the forums have exploded about in the past, eh? The Arctic Cheetah? The Cauldron-Born? The Timber Wolf, the Stormcrow? The ol' Highlander or Victor, the CTF-3D, the Shadow Hawk? Oh, wait a sec, that's right...

If you're saying the KDK-3 needs to be 'tapped down', then tap it down. Key word is tap, not "DROP A MOUNTAIN ON IT, AND EVERYTHING WITHIN FIVE MILES OF IT IN THE 'MECHLAB". That's what gets me - you folks' constant need to destroy the machine, every other Kodiak, and also possibly the rest of the Clan assault classification as well for the sake of 'balance'.

lolwut? Don't put words in our mouth.

Why should the Kodiak have more twist range than a Dire Wolf? It shouldn't. And Ironically, the BLR-1G is actually still a decent mech given its quirks and high mounts, regardless of its twist range, but the KDK-3 deserves to have that range more, because of its firepower.

I want it balanced. You think I don't enjoy trudging around icing noobs who decide to stand still right in front of me? Or think that listing lazily to the left is an adequate maneuver to spread damage from massed Clan dakka? Its quite fun, but really, in an effort to give the KDK-3 have more of a drawback, it really should lose something, I propose starting with its quirks.. and then going to limiting the torso twist from 70 down to 60 (no one EVER said 40, you are completely pulling that out of your ***) if the quirks weren't enough.

And then... add some quirks to the Dire.

Widowmaker1981, on 02 November 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Well, *I*, personally, dont want it hammered down too bad, not even to the level of the best clan assault prior to its introduction. I do want it toned back, and i DO NOT want negative quirks on it, so reduing torso arc and removing structure quirks is a good way to go, since there is actually nothing else to be done - and then i want other Clan assaults to be buffed so they are a reasonable alternative. (And IS assaults to get their quirks back)

i DO NOT want to go back to the stage before the KDK-3 was released where taking an Assault in a Clan dropdeck was idiocy.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts exactly.

[AphexTwin11]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

One sample being not reflective of the overall population is irrelevant when a majority of the population may not even be able to reason why it is so strong or why it is the best mech.

When the top teams are always taking 2 of the same mech, the conclusion has been made by all those teams that it is the best option for them to win a match, there is no problem with correlation =/= causation because teams will only take what will give them the best chances of winning, that is your causation. Other games do this to help determine outliers with regards to game balance, it isn't like this is something new. Overwatch used competitive tourney stats before they had a ranked mode to determine what to balance, like when McCree was constantly being taken in pairs because he was just that strong.

"your people"'s argument is that it is extremely unbalanced, OP, and unfair PERIOD (not putting words in ayones mouth, go forum commando and read the hours of posts on it). Taking a mech in a tourney because it is good and suits your play doesn't mean it needs to be beat with a hammer. So, again, to reiteriate (I'll use smaller words this time) best chance of winning =/= Development needs to intervene because of "super" OP.

MWO is not other games. It's like saying Valve should Nerf the AWP in CS:Source because comp teams think it's good, and using that as evidence the KDK-3 should be nerfed. LOL

go back to club penguin

Edited by AphexTwin11, 02 November 2016 - 09:29 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

"your people"'s argument is that it is extremely unbalanced, OP, and unfair PERIOD (not putting words in ayones mouth, go forum commando and read the hours of posts on it). Taking a mech in a tourney because it is good and suits your play doesn't mean it needs to be beat with a hammer. So, again, to reiteriate (I'll use smaller words this time) best chance of winning =/= Development needs to intervene because of "super" OP.

MWO is not other games. It's like saying Valve should Nerf the AWP in CS:Source because comp teams think it's good, and using that as evidence the KDK-3 should be nerfed. LOL

go back to club penguin

Nobody who knows what they are talking about are asking to beat it down with a hammer. I just want some incremental changes. For instance, it doesn't need extra durability.. its mobile and has significant firepower, so remove the structure quirks on the KDK-3 and see how it sits then. If that isn't enough, then look at restricting torso movement slightly.

[Mcgral18]

Great, the troll is out again


Do we start reporting, or counter Trolling?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Taking a mech in a tourney because it is good and suits your play doesn't mean it needs to be beat with a hammer.

If it were one team taking it then sure you might have a point about not suiting other's style of play, but it isn't just one team, it was all of the top teams, which suggests that either it is the reason one play style is dominant, or the mech itself is dominant across different play styles.

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

So, again, to reiteriate (I'll use smaller words this time) best chance of winning =/= Development needs to intervene because of "super" OP.

You're assuming that it cuts into development time that much.

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

MWO is not other games. It's like saying Valve should Nerf the AWP in CS:Source because comp teams think it's good, and using that as evidence the KDK-3 should be nerfed. LOL

Nice non-sequitur, MWO is not this special snowflake that no balancing methods from other games can't apply because of "reasons" that makes MWO special.

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

"your people"'s argument is that it is extremely unbalanced, OP, and unfair PERIOD (not putting words in ayones mouth, go forum commando and read the hours of posts on it).

Cuz lumping a bunch of people together has always worked will in arguments.....

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 November 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[1453 R]

Widowmaker1981, on 02 November 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Well, *I*, personally, dont want it hammered down too bad, not even to the level of the best clan assault prior to its introduction. I do want it toned back, and i DO NOT want negative quirks on it, so reduing torso arc and removing structure quirks is a good way to go, since there is actually nothing else to be done - and then i want other Clan assaults to be buffed so they are a reasonable alternative. (And IS assaults to get their quirks back)

i DO NOT want to go back to the stage before the KDK-3 was released where taking an Assault in a Clan dropdeck was idiocy.

You and I might well be alone in that sentiment, Widowmaker. The common consensus among the Good Player population on the boards seems to be that any Clan fatbro more potent than a quirkless Warhawk is unacceptably overpowered and disruptive to the state of the game, and as such all Clan assault 'Mechs need to be smashed down to quirkless Warhawk status or below.

They already got the entire Kodiak chassis buttrekt once, and they continue to quest to do the same again. It does in fact burn my cookies. (Un)fortunately(?), nobody cares about my cookies so I continue to argue in these threads to no avail. All Will Be Normalized.

Gas Guzzler, on 02 November 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

lolwut? Don't put words in our mouth.

Why should the Kodiak have more twist range than a Dire Wolf? It shouldn't. And Ironically, the BLR-1G is actually still a decent mech given its quirks and high mounts, regardless of its twist range, but the KDK-3 deserves to have that range more, because of its firepower.

I want it balanced. You think I don't enjoy trudging around icing noobs who decide to stand still right in front of me? Or think that listing lazily to the left is an adequate maneuver to spread damage from massed Clan dakka? Its quite fun, but really, in an effort to give the KDK-3 have more of a drawback, it really should lose something, I propose starting with its quirks.. and then going to limiting the torso twist from 70 down to 60 (no one EVER said 40, you are completely pulling that out of your ***) if the quirks weren't enough.

And then... add some quirks to the Dire.

There was a time, not too terribly long ago, when the very notion of upquirking the Whale was utterly unthinkable. Where everyone was convinced that the Dire Whale was an unconquerable monster beast that needed to be savagely nerfed For The Good of MechWarrior Online(C).

Remember those days? I do. I remember pointing out that the Whale was an unmanageable blimp with blind sides for miles; it was a machine that could be outmaneuvered and brought down by a troop of baboons with manpack SRM launchers at need.

Curious, now, to see what the COllective thinks of the Whale these days.

You want to cut the KDK-3's quirks? A'ight, do that. See what happens there, continue as required from that point. Cut its quirks, AND cut its twist arcs in half, AND cut its pitch range in more-than-half, AND bring in the dakka nerfage from the ED PTS runs, AND hit it with structure/agility redquirks, AND [X]...? All at once?

Too much. That's the sort of pull-ALL-the-levers(!!) tomfuggery we all keep yelling at Paul to stop doing. Why are we yelling at him to start doing it again now?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 02 November 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Curious, now, to see what the COllective thinks of the Whale these days.

That it is a tier 2 assault thanks to a bunch of blanket nerfs rather than iterative changes. Don't get me wrong I don't expect PGI to just nerf the KDK-3 because it is PGI, but at this point I'm ok with that just to see things change and assaults to be more diverse than they are and were during the Whale days.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 November 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

1453 R, on 02 November 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

You and I might well be alone in that sentiment, Widowmaker. The common consensus among the Good Player population on the boards seems to be that any Clan fatbro more potent than a quirkless Warhawk is unacceptably overpowered and disruptive to the state of the game, and as such all Clan assault 'Mechs need to be smashed down to quirkless Warhawk status or below.

They already got the entire Kodiak chassis buttrekt once, and they continue to quest to do the same again. It does in fact burn my cookies. (Un)fortunately(?), nobody cares about my cookies so I continue to argue in these threads to no avail. All Will Be Normalized.


There was a time, not too terribly long ago, when the very notion of upquirking the Whale was utterly unthinkable. Where everyone was convinced that the Dire Whale was an unconquerable monster beast that needed to be savagely nerfed For The Good of MechWarrior Online(C).

Remember those days? I do. I remember pointing out that the Whale was an unmanageable blimp with blind sides for miles; it was a machine that could be outmaneuvered and brought down by a troop of baboons with manpack SRM launchers at need.

Curious, now, to see what the COllective thinks of the Whale these days.

You want to cut the KDK-3's quirks? A'ight, do that. See what happens there, continue as required from that point. Cut its quirks, AND cut its twist arcs in half, AND cut its pitch range in more-than-half, AND bring in the dakka nerfage from the ED PTS runs, AND hit it with structure/agility redquirks, AND [X]...? All at once?

Too much. That's the sort of pull-ALL-the-levers(!!) tomfuggery we all keep yelling at Paul to stop doing. Why are we yelling at him to start doing it again now?

He isn't alone, I agree with everything Widowmaker said.

As I have already said multiple times, removing the quirks on the KDK-3 and assessing the new UAC changes is a good place to start... see how it goes, and if necessary restrict torso movement slightly, like 70 to 60, NOT HALF! No one ever said half, and if they did they are wrong.

Regarding the Dire, the Clan DHS changes and skill tree nerfs didn't help it at all, ever since the skill tree nerfs I thought it could use something in the way of agility, and others have had other ideas of how to buff it slightly, but compared to the KDK-3, it is definitely lacking significantly. 52 to 70 kph is a huge difference, the extra cUAC5 is not nearly enough to make up for that, let alone the hardpoint placement.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 November 2016 - 09:41 AM.

[AphexTwin11]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

If it were one team taking it then sure you might have a point about not suiting other's style of play, but it isn't just one team, it was all of the top teams, which suggests that either it is the reason one play style is dominant, or the mech itself is dominant across different play styles.

That still doesn't mean it is OP and warrants as much forum whine as it's getting. Git gud.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

You're assuming that it cuts into development time that much.

I could give a **** less how much *time* the devs spend on anything. The point I'm making is that you're getting dunked on and now you're asking the NBA to raise the basket height. My point is stop whining and develop tactics to counter a KDK-3 when you see one, like the rest of us.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

Nice non-sequitur, MWO is not this special snowflake that no balancing methods from other games can't apply because of "reasons" that makes MWO special.

I don't see the difference

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

Cuz lumping a bunch of people together has always worked will in arguments.....

"XYZ mech is OP" forum whiners are all the same to me.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

always worked will in arguments.....

I'm not necessarily trying to *win* anything, I just want to argue with strangers on the internet over free to play video games while I'm at work.

Edited by AphexTwin11, 02 November 2016 - 09:45 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

1453 R, on 02 November 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Curious, now, to see what the COllective thinks of the Whale these days.

The Whale was killed (or at least mortally wounded) by the skill tree agility nerfs, because its base level of agility without that is just too bad.

People say that because it lost the smallest absolute amount due to the fact that it is the slowest and least agile thing and the skills are percentage based, but that is incorrect logic - to take it to an extreme if you had 2 mechs, one that torso twisted at 50000°/sec and another that twisted at 100°/sec and then reduced all twist speed by 50%, the one that cares is the one that lost 50, not the one that lost 25000 - because 25000 is still so fast its not a limiting factor. The Dire needed that agility to be playable (for me anyway), and mechs with big engines dont.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

That still doesn't mean it is OP and warrants as much forum whine as it's getting. Git gud.

Go ahead and tell that to the best Assault pilots in the game.....

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

I could give a **** less how much *time* the devs spend on anything. The point I'm making is that you're getting dunked on and now you're asking the NBA to raise the basket height. My point is stop whining and develop tactics to counter a KDK-3 when you see one, like the rest of us.

How am I getting dunked on? As for the "rest of us", I didn't see any of those teams with these ultra-l33t-super tactics defeating EmP and their KDK-3s, or really any other of the good teams using KDK-3s.

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

I don't see the difference

MWO isn't some unique game that makes it so that balancing methods form other games couldn't/shouldn't apply here, and that includes balancing top down. If Valve decided to nerf the AWP because of their comp players complaining about the AWP being OP, then why is there a problem with PGI nerfing the KDK-3 because of comp players complaining about the KDK-3 being OP?

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

"XYZ mech is OP" forum whiners are all the same to me.

Not if they have reasonable rationale behind it, but sure if you want to be ignorant, don't let me stop you.

[Widowmaker1981]

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

I could give a **** less how much *time* the devs spend on anything. The point I'm making is that you're getting dunked on and now you're asking the NBA to raise the basket height. My point is stop whining and develop tactics to counter a KDK-3 when you see one, like the rest of us.

Thats a ridiculous argument, especially considering the difference player skill makes - absolutely no one is saying that there arent good ways to take on Kodiaks - i mean hell, if it was 1v1 (its not, obviously) i would put money on being able to take a Kodiak with a Shadow Cat, because i would run away like a ***** and poptart with dual PPCs from unexpected angles. Its not 1v1, but ERPPC mediums and heavies actually have a fairly easy time especially against the dakka variety (a really good player in a GR/PPC one is.. well you have to be very careful not to pop out where he expects you to. Which im bad at because im a bit of a dmg ***** in solo games so i exploit a good firing spot for too long pretty often).

None of that is the point, though.

The point is that if you want to play an assault, and you care about winning, the KDK-3 is clearly and obviously the best choice and that any tactic you can use to beat them will work better against any other assault.

[AphexTwin11]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

Not if they have reasonable rationale behind it, but sure if you want to be ignorant, don't let me stop you.

Small children have reasonable rationale behind screaming bloody murder in public too, doesn't make it any more palatable.

Widowmaker1981, on 02 November 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

The point is that if you want to play an assault, and you care about winning, the KDK-3 is clearly and obviously the best choice and that any tactic you can use to beat them will work better against any other assault.

oh, so that must obviously mean its super OP and needs to be beat into the ground. Got it, solid reasoning.There have been countless, COUNTLESS times when I've been on 4+ KDK teams and we lose to teams without them. I'm guessing you still want the ACH nerfed into the ground too?

Edited by AphexTwin11, 02 November 2016 - 09:57 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

oh, so that must obviously mean its super OP and needs to be beat into the ground. Got it, solid reasoning.

If its the best then it should be dialed down slightly so that it is balanced with other mechs. Sounds like solid reasoning to me.

[Widowmaker1981]

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

oh, so that must obviously mean its super OP and needs to be beat into the ground. Got it, solid reasoning.

No, it means either it should be nerfed, or the competing choices should be buffed. I advocate for a compromise, relatively small nerfs and small to medium buffs for the competition.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AphexTwin11, on 02 November 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

Small children have reasonable rationale behind screaming bloody murder in public too, doesn't make it any more palatable.

They have rationale, but most would consider it unreasonable.

[Mcgral18]

Is now the time we bring out Aphex' stats?

I mean, he did break 1 Kd ratio in half of the seasons, good on him.
135ish Assault matches since the beginning of leaderboards

His Assault K/d ratio maxes at 2.5...in the last season where he had 3 Assault Matches


Mine (predominantly in Kodiaks, primarily PokeBears but some DakkaBears too) did not fall below 5 K/d, with a min of 32 matches, and a max of 94 matches (w/8.48 K/d and 3.09 W/L)



This is why we don't balance by Potato
You get guys like this, trying to defend what they don't understand.