60 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

With the patch, every normal AC will officially have 3.33 damage per heat...so the AC/2 has the same DPH as the AC/20. This makes me a sad panda. Gotta normalize dem spreadsheets bruh.

Packaging, though.

The 20 will dump all 6 points instantly, the 2 will not.

I'm not going to fret over the heat just yet.

[Albino Boo]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

PPFLD (specifically Clan PPFLD) is indeed meta in the championship. However, that is the meta in the highest level of coordination and play--which doesn't translate well into pug matches.

Unfortunately that doesn't stop people standing still and plinking away at shadow cat 1200 m away while the rest of the other maneuvers. People are trying to run Clan PPFLD badly in pugland

Edited by Albino Boo, 13 November 2016 - 10:40 PM.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

I'm going to chime in here and say that originally, autocannon damage per heat values were meant to favor the smaller ACs over the larger ones. The AC/10 was supposed to have better damage per heat than the 20, etc. It was meant to add a small additional reason to not just use the biggest strongest AC.

Tabletop messed this up by making the AC/2 have the same heat as the AC/5 (rounded the value up instead of down like the others), but every other AC stock DPH value actually lined up as expected.

With the patch, every normal AC will officially have 3.33 damage per heat...so the AC/2 has the same DPH as the AC/20. This makes me a sad panda. Gotta normalize dem spreadsheets bruh.


EDIT: I don't think that the AC/5 heat increase is going to "kill" the gun per se, but I don't think it was really necessary since the gun has to be either boated, combined, or quirked to become truly powerful. Outside of those conditions, it's basically just average.

Load a mech (with minimal or no ballistic quirks) with 2 AC/5 and only limited backup weapons. Tell me how OP and out of line your performance is.

I'd like to keep things as simple as possible. 3.33 DPH for all classes is very easy to remember and due to how different AC calibers trade damage for range and velocity, it is also fair.

And as for AC5 viability, that is part of the current overall IS tech inferiority compared to Clan tech. Prior to the Clans, dual AC5 was actually respectable firepower. Clans had powercreeped everything with their better tech, which included lighter, more compact UACs of all calibers, with longer range.

I'd rather nerf UACs than buff regular AC5 to their level, which is what PGI did. TBF, regular AC5 might need more buffs, but I'd leave the new 3.33 DPH alone, as that is not why it is underpowered.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 November 2016 - 10:56 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

I'd like to keep things as simple as possible. 3.33 DPH for all classes is very easy to remember. And as for AC5 viability, that part of the current overall IS inferiority compared to Clan tech. Prior to the Clans, dual AC5 was actually respectable firepower. Clans had powercreeped everything with their better tech, which included lighter and more compact UACs of all classes.

I really don't see an issue with "remembering" heat values. The mechlab directly lists them, and you can easily calculate derived stats like DPH from those.

I think that after the much older set of nerfs (i.e. velocity) that the AC/5 already went down to "mostly average" outside of the cases I mentioned. The Clans hit it harder, but it was already toned down before they got added.

The heat change doesn't do anything about power creep or Clans. It's just creating uniformity because...uniformity. If anything, they could have just done the change for just the Clan UAC/5 and leave the IS alone.

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

TBF, regular AC5 might need more buffs, but I'd leave the new 3.33 DPH alone, as that is not why it is underpowered.

Perhaps not, but it also doesn't help matters in any way either. The reasoning for doing it can be literally summarized as "just because."

Edited by FupDup, 13 November 2016 - 10:59 PM.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 10:55 PM, said:

I really don't see an issue with "remembering" heat values. The mechlab directly lists them, and you can easily calculate derived stats like DPH from those.

I think that after the much older set of nerfs (i.e. velocity) that the AC/5 already went down to "mostly average" outside of the cases I mentioned.

The heat change doesn't do anything about power creep or Clans. It's just creating uniformity because...uniformity.


Perhaps not, but it also doesn't help matters in any way either. The reasoning for doing it can be literally summarized as "just because."

I tend to see it as more solid grounds for better balancing, cause pre-velocity nerf, boating AC5 was better than other choices. You are of course, free to disagree, but I for one am very happy that something I called for over two years ago is now becoming reality. Now PGI can fiddle with general AC values without AC5 becoming better than other choices again.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 November 2016 - 11:04 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 10:59 PM, said:

I tend to see it as more solid grounds for better balancing, cause pre-velocity nerf, AC5 was flat out better than all other ACs. You are of course, free to disagree, but I for one am very happy that something I called for over two years ago, is now becoming reality. Now PGI can fiddle with other AC5 values without AC5 becoming better than other choices again.

Ever think that perhaps the other ACs just had some more significant drawbacks all on their own, rather than just "by comparison?"


The AC/2 is the best example of this. It pays 6 tons and gets very little in return, along with facetime issues as a "bonus." The AC/2 isn't bad because of the AC/5, it's bad because of itself. If you delete the AC/5 from the XML files, the AC/2 still sucks.

The AC/10, although some people swear by it and insist that it's totally da best gun evar, doesn't really focus on a particular role. This means that it tries to do a few different things (midrange or brawler), but doesn't do either of them very well. The cooldown is slightly too fast that sword-and-board wastes DPS, and it's a little too slow to make it good at putting out lots of suppressive dakka. The velocity doesn't really work at its intended optimal range that well. Lastly, its weight is a little bit too high for what you get out of the package. If it was like 10 tons it would probably be fine, but it's 12 tons.

The AC/20 hits hard but is really big and heavy, along with having a limited range that ensures it will be a niche weapon. It's not the AC/5's fault that the '20 has a high opportunity cost and very specialized role.


The AC/5 is sort of like the AC/10, but the specific stats like velocity/range/reload on it make it a bit better at the general-purpose role than the '10. It doesn't have as much of an "identity crisis" as the AC/10.



I really don't buy the idea in your last line there. You're presenting the argument that the 1.0 heat value made the AC/5 superior to everything and no other variables have an impact on that? Bruh, please.

Velocity and/or cooldown buffs of large magnitude could easily achieve your fear of the AC/5 beating everything; they would probably have a bigger impact than just the old low heat value.

Edited by FupDup, 13 November 2016 - 11:16 PM.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

Ever think that perhaps the other ACs just had some more significant drawbacks all on their own, rather than just "by comparison?"

The AC/2 is the best example of this. It pays 6 tons and gets very little in return, along with facetime issues as a "bonus." The AC/2 isn't bad because of the AC/5, it's bad because of itself. If you delete the AC/5 from the XML files, the AC/2 still sucks.

The AC/10, although some people swear by it and insist that it's totally da best gun evar, doesn't really focus on a particular role. This means that it tries to do a few different things (midrange or brawler), but doesn't do either of them very well. The cooldown is slightly too fast that sword-and-board wastes DPS, and it's a little too slow to make it good at putting out lots of suppressive dakka. The velocity doesn't really work at its intended optimal range that well. Lastly, its weight is a little bit too high for what you get out of the package. If it was like 10 tons it would probably be fine, but it's 12 tons.

The AC/20 hits hard but is really big and heavy, along with having a limited range that ensures it will be a niche weapon. It's not the AC/5's fault that the '20 has a high opportunity cost and very specialized role.

The AC/5 is sort of like the AC/10, but the specific stats like velocity/range/reload on it make it a bit better at the general-purpose role than the '10. It doesn't have as much of an "identity crisis" as the AC/10.


I really don't buy the idea in your last line there. You're presenting the argument that the 1.0 heat value made the AC/5 superior to everything and no other variables have an impact on that? Bruh, please.

Velocity and/or cooldown buffs of large magnitude could easily achieve your fear of the AC/5 beating everything; they would probably have a bigger impact than just the old low heat value.

If the heat value has so little impact over velocity or cooldown changes, then you shouldn't be worried about the patch change so much. In fact, I think you are making a big deal out of a very small change. Whatever balancing method PGI is gonna use from now on to bring IS ACs to be more viable without quirks, the heat change of AC5 to 1.5 wouldn't affect it. It is more for consistency. And I am all about consistency.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 November 2016 - 11:25 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:23 PM, said:

If the heat value has so little impact over velocity or cooldown changes, then you shouldn't be worried about the patch change so much. In fact, I think you are making a big deal out of a very small change. Whatever balancing method PGI is gonna use from now on to bring IS ACs to be more viable without quirks, the heat change of AC5 to 1.5 wouldn't affect it.

Until PGI buffs any other aspect of the gun, the heat change does actually affect it. You can argue the extent of which it is affected, but at the end of the day a nerf is still a nerf whether big or small.

From my experience of watching the patch notes, it's gonna take a looong time for any kind of buffs to come in...

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:23 PM, said:

It is more for consistency. And I am all about consistency.

So is our Balancing Overlord...

Edited by FupDup, 13 November 2016 - 11:29 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

# not all nerfs are good

#not all buffs are good

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

So is our Balancing Overlord...

Not as much as you think. After all, it took him bloody two years to normalize something so obvious. If he actually cared about consistency, then base IS and Clan tech would have been of equal viability, without quirk crutches.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 November 2016 - 11:34 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

Not as much as you think. After all, it took him bloody two years to normalize something so obvious.

The Nerfinator is a patient and methodical creature. When dealing with him, it's a matter of 'if' rather than when...

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Bad/misinformed thread is bad. Both CLPL and UACs will still be useful. Player mentality however, will compel them stay away from those weapons for a while simply because they were nerfed, despite their continued usability.

Dude, what oracle have you consulted with that gives you this information?

cLPLs are pretty irrelevant in most situations. And dakka has an obvious counter in PPFLD, with UAC nerfs this balance doesn't stay. How can you not see that?

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 November 2016 - 11:53 PM, said:

Dude, what oracle have you consulted with that gives you this information?

cLPLs are pretty irrelevant in most situations. And dakka has an obvious counter in PPFLD, with UAC nerfs this balance doesn't stay. How can you not see that?

I am tired of explaining everything again and again. Go through my older posts if you must, but I know from experience that you are mistaken in regards to CLPL and CUAC viability, post patch.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 November 2016 - 11:53 PM, said:

Dude, what oracle have you consulted with that gives you this information?

cLPLs are pretty irrelevant in most situations. And dakka has an obvious counter in PPFLD, with UAC nerfs this balance doesn't stay. How can you not see that?

As I rediscovered in a certain MRBC match...
Serves me right for being too lazy to mechlab between matches.


At least SRMs aren't 1.5 damage gimp balls, and HoverJets™ are still mostly in effect.
So, not the same as three years ago.

[Widowmaker1981]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

Load a mech (with minimal or no ballistic quirks) with 2 AC/5 and only limited backup weapons. Tell me how OP and out of line your performance is.

Well, in fairness, the heat nerf hardly hurts that mech either, even at 3 heat per shot instead of 2 its still going to be able to fire for days with only 10 DHS...

[Lily from animove]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 13 November 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

from 14 to 13,5 but only the IS version. Hardly any difference.
Mind you, the ballistic and c-large pulse changes will have even less of an impact.
Who used a c-large pulse @ 1,2 km anyways?

those who use med lasers at 1000m too?

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

PPFLD (specifically Clan PPFLD) is indeed meta in the championship. However, that is the meta in the highest level of coordination and play--which doesn't translate well into pug matches.

wiht the beamdurations and spread Uac's thats nothing to wonder about.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 November 2016 - 02:28 AM.

[Lily from animove]

dp derp

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 November 2016 - 02:28 AM.

[LordNothing]

ive always preferred to cerppc over the clpl. ppfld + bonus splash = happy fun time.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 November 2016 - 03:11 AM.

[Stone Wall]

Spheroid, on 13 November 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

@JiKil: You claim the maps are huge, but people are only voting for HPG, canyon and mining. That topic is still on the front page somewhere. Those maps are not oversized.

Yep MWO maps are dreadfully small compared to MW3, MW4, and I'm sure MW LL.

[Jikil]

Dakka is the only real counter to the power of nailing something with 30 points of damage in the CT just by poking with your madcat for 1 second.

It's so powerful that teams can obliterate a mech in MRBC the moment it runs around a corner.

You guys keep saying brawling but that gets negated by a polar highlands or alpine map pick which are increasingly common.

They should have paired this change with a change to PPCs and to a lesser extent gauss rifles. Put both weapon groups on the same Ghost heat profile so this doesn't just turn into a game of spamming PPCs at each other.