307 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Blind Baku, on 23 December 2016 - 07:36 AM, said:

I might hold off on a lock when I am ranging out by my self in ECM lights, or something like that, to prevent the person being locked from getting a heads up that there is someone watching them. I'm not 100% on the mechanics, but I believe anytime you get locked there is a light¹ in your cockpit that flashes warning you that you have been locked².

1 You see the flash of light across your cockpit, as if a light behind your head flashed twice, not a light on the dash board or anything. Two white flashes warning you're locked.
2 Some have said it only happens if you have a Radar derp equipped.

You get that flash of light if you have radar deprivation and they lose a lock on you. It's not when they gain it. Another reason Radar Dep has been OP for some time...

[Evil Goof]

InspectorG, on 21 December 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:

There is a premium on mobility but LRMing can be done in Assaults IF done AGGRESSIVELY and with good positioning...which most lurmers lack.

Really, for Lurming to work, use a TAG, stay @400m away from the target to reduce reaction time.

I hate using LRMs but have had some killer matches in my LRM70 Hoverlander-llC-B. Pugs get scared when i get position next to our brawlers and dump 70 on their CT via TAG as they get blasted by teammates.

i also dont mind getting hit to allow teammates(the aggro ones, the campers can go die in a corner) to peek because i know my troll build will be a target and i can draw fire. Talking stupid smack helps this as well. "There can be only one!!!"

But all in all, LRMs are terribad inefficient means of doing damage.

I agree with everything you say. I mean the Stalker is a go to for lrm assaults and does it well. Warhawk too. Just not an Atlas or Spirit Bear. It is an absolute waste.

[Evil Goof]

Tesunie, on 23 December 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

You get that flash of light if you have radar deprivation and they lose a lock on you. It's not when they gain it. Another reason Radar Dep has been OP for some time...

Radar Derp OP????

That's a big fat NEGATORY.

[Tesunie]

Evil Goof, on 25 December 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Radar Derp OP????

That's a big fat NEGATORY.

How so? It removes the normal target decay from a lock. Even with advanced target decay on, it still doesn't even out, making Radar Dep more powerful than it's counterpart, Adv Target Decay. Not to mention, it not only makes locks "lost instantly" (unless you have Adv Target Decay on, and then it's still drastically shorter than normal decay would have been), it also provides a beep noise and a flashing light when someone has a lock on you and lost it.

It's also OP when, out of all the modules in the game, the go to module to get is Radar Dep. Calling it not OP is the same as saying old Seismic wasn't OP, but it was the #1 module to take above all others.

Basically, Radar Dep does a little too much, especially when compared to other modules as well as (and especially) when compared to it's direct counterpart (Adv Target Decay). Whenever any module/weapon/mech becomes the "go to" without any real competitor, than it is OP, and probably in need of some adjustment or fine tuning.

Do realize I am not advocating for it's removal, just that it's effects should be reduced. However, this point is relatively moot, considering the fact that all modules are going to be removed with the new Skill Tree's release. Something I think is a good thing. I never liked the concept of modules in this game. It just didn't seem very fitting...

[Steel Raven]

We are loosing all our modules when the new Skill Tree goes live so you can stop complaining. And no, I don't considering asking for line of sight for a lock as overpowered considering many LRM still find there way to my mech WITH radar derp.

[Tesunie]

Steel Raven, on 25 December 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

We are loosing all our modules when the new Skill Tree goes live so you can stop complaining. And no, I don't considering asking for line of sight for a lock as overpowered considering many LRM still find there way to my mech WITH radar derp.

The problem isn't "Line of sight", it's that it out performs it's direct counterpart, Adv Target Decay, "instantly breaks locks*", provides a flash when a lock is broken... oh and is also the #1 recommended "must have module". It's OP. It's actually created issues I've noticed where I can clearly see a mech, excapt a tiny cable graphic is covering 1/10 of their mech, so I can't seem to get/keep a lock on them, meanwhile they can still shoot me anyway because we have direct line of sight to each other (and no, ECM was not in affect).

When something becomes a clear choice above all others, it's OP and needs to be leveled again. And just because LRMs still hits you, doesn't mean it isn't OP.

[Steel Raven]

Again, we are loosing all modules when the skill tree go live so you are getting way regardless.

[MacClearly]

Tesunie, on 25 December 2016 - 08:58 PM, said:

How so? It removes the normal target decay from a lock. Even with advanced target decay on, it still doesn't even out, making Radar Dep more powerful than it's counterpart, Adv Target Decay. Not to mention, it not only makes locks "lost instantly" (unless you have Adv Target Decay on, and then it's still drastically shorter than normal decay would have been), it also provides a beep noise and a flashing light when someone has a lock on you and lost it.

It's also OP when, out of all the modules in the game, the go to module to get is Radar Dep. Calling it not OP is the same as saying old Seismic wasn't OP, but it was the #1 module to take above all others.

Basically, Radar Dep does a little too much, especially when compared to other modules as well as (and especially) when compared to it's direct counterpart (Adv Target Decay). Whenever any module/weapon/mech becomes the "go to" without any real competitor, than it is OP, and probably in need of some adjustment or fine tuning.

Do realize I am not advocating for it's removal, just that it's effects should be reduced. However, this point is relatively moot, considering the fact that all modules are going to be removed with the new Skill Tree's release. Something I think is a good thing. I never liked the concept of modules in this game. It just didn't seem very fitting...

Just because something works or is functional, doesn't make it OP.

Why it should not be removed and in new system will be still included, is that you want a game to be decided for the most part on skill. Getting to cover rewards that and to have indirect fire weapons where a player could literally do nothing but move his mouse from target to target and press fire would be stupid OP.

[Bellum Dominum]

'go play hello kitty...' LMAO!!!

LRM hate has always cracked me up. No other weapon in the game gives you few seconds warning before it hits you. Not a single one. No other weapon in the game has an automatic passive defense system against it let alone two(AMS & ECM). No other weapon can be so easily avoided.

I'll readily admit I rage some when getting hammered by multiple lrm boats but my rage is more because my own team is playing the hide and poke instead of putting pressure (advancing) on those lrm boats.

If I'm dead and I hear/read someone raging on LRMs I hop views until I can see their mech loadout. If it is an AMS capable mech (most are) and they aren't running AMS well all of the rest of their whining is nothing more than their qq batteries getting depleted as far as I'm concerned. (Okay I should be nicer as your video is very well done and really all about being a better community.)

It has been a back and forth issue since conception with this game. Some of that has to do with changes that at times did make lrms way too strong, and at others made them way too weak. Today I'd say PGI has gotten a pretty nice balance for lrms, although I would say I still think the ECM bubble needs to go away and as we see more and more ECM capable mechs that opinion just gets stronger. I don't even play lrm boats often myself, and in fact almost always am an ECM mech and I have this opinion of it.

The past few days I've dropped in my 3 AMS, 4 MG, 2 Sm Pulse, 1 Flamer ECM Kitfox, with AMS Overload & AMS Range modules + the Kitfox quirks. I even racked up 900 damage in one match on it (yeah I wish I'd recorded that as it was insane for that loadout to do that well). I run 3 1/2 tons AMS ammo, 4 tons MG ammo. Was a blast but I started to almost feel bad for the enemy lrm boats lol.

Point of this response was made at the start: Easiest weapon in the game to defend against so before calling someone a noob for using them you should consider who the noob is if you are not loading/practicing the defenses against them.

(EDIT: Personal opinion and one derived from playing the game so long is that assault mechs SHOULD NOT load up as lrm boats. Way too much armor taken off the front line engagements. Load lrms sure. My old DDC build: 1 LRM 20, 2 UAC5, 2 ER LRG. Used the LRMs to 'soften and/or suppress targets' as I advanced to the front line. This is back in the days that it was the slowest mech in the game and you had to play catch up with the rest of your team. Assaults don't even have the speed to be able to manuever to get good angles to launch lrms consistently. Just bad all around using them as lrm boats.) Cat-A1 or Maddog make far superior lrm boats to any assault someone could list.

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 28 December 2016 - 06:12 AM.

[General Solo]

Tesunie, on 25 December 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

The problem isn't "Line of sight", it's that it out performs it's direct counterpart, Adv Target Decay, "instantly breaks locks*", provides a flash when a lock is broken... oh and is also the #1 recommended "must have module". It's OP. It's actually created issues I've noticed where I can clearly see a mech, excapt a tiny cable graphic is covering 1/10 of their mech, so I can't seem to get/keep a lock on them, meanwhile they can still shoot me anyway because we have direct line of sight to each other (and no, ECM was not in affect).

When something becomes a clear choice above all others, it's OP and needs to be leveled again. And just because LRMs still hits you, doesn't mean it isn't OP.

Radar Derp is no problem, when you have narc

[Bellum Dominum]

Blind Baku, on 23 December 2016 - 07:36 AM, said:

I might hold off on a lock when I am ranging out by my self in ECM lights, or something like that, to prevent the person being locked from getting a heads up that there is someone watching them. I'm not 100% on the mechanics, but I believe anytime you get locked there is a light¹ in your cockpit that flashes warning you that you have been locked².

1 You see the flash of light across your cockpit, as if a light behind your head flashed twice, not a light on the dash board or anything. Two white flashes warning you're locked.
2 Some have said it only happens if you have a Radar derp equipped.

You are correct about the locked on warning. It is very subtle and totally not dependent upon radar derp. Not a clue who started this rumor but sounds to me like an awesome troll that has been way too successful.

[Tesunie]

MacClearly, on 28 December 2016 - 12:47 AM, said:

Just because something works or is functional, doesn't make it OP.

Why it should not be removed and in new system will be still included, is that you want a game to be decided for the most part on skill. Getting to cover rewards that and to have indirect fire weapons where a player could literally do nothing but move his mouse from target to target and press fire would be stupid OP.

Functional has nothing to do with if it's OP or not. If this is your indication on if something is fucntional:
Long Tom: Was considered OP because it could kill entire teams (if they were not careful). Was considered so OP that many players stopped dropping on a world if it had LT on it. It was fully functional.
Seismic Sensor: Was considered OP upon it's first introduction, when it would provide early warning for anyone getting close to the equipped mech, even when at a full run. Was considered too powerful for as module, as it was a "must have" module, recommended by everyone over any other module. It was fully functional. (Has been adjusted to a better state now, and people made the same exact argument you have before it was adjusted.)
ECM: Before there was any other counter besides ECM, it was considered OP. This piece of equipment rendered a user invulnerable to any lock on missiles, being SSRMs and LRMs. Only exception was if it was a SSRM, ECM equipped mech itself. It was functional. (Was latter adjusted several times, and more counters were placed into the game, such as BAP, (ER)PPCs, UAVs, NARC and TAG.) Note: This alone made the Raven from an "it's a good mech" to "you can't kill them". Especially considering that light mechs had "Lag Shields" back then...

And, to quote someone from another thread:

Kerafyrm, on 28 December 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

6 mil for radar derp is a really good investment. Might seem like a lot but its worth every penny. Use it as a module on every mech you play.

Notice there is no alternative options presented? Notice how no other module is suggested as a "good thing to have"?

This post isn't the reason I feel it's OP, but it does indicate that its "the best choice" of all the modules. When something becomes "the best choice" out of all other options, hands down, than it probably is OP and needs adjustments.

Functional also doesn't mean it is or is not OP. Just because something is functional doesn't mean it can't be OP or UP. LRMs are functional, but they keep going into a flux of being too powerful to not strong enough.


As for the second half of your argument, you now wish to mention skill as a factor of why this module should remain in the game (and hinting at it being unchanged). You seem to state that LRMs should "remain a bad weapon" because "it doesn't require any skill". Of this, I'd have to disagree. LRMs do require some skill to use well and effectively. Just, the skill set needed for this is different than that of other weapons. You can basically read more about my opinion here, here, here and also here.

Now, I will state that I've not ask for the removal of any modules (even if I never really liked their inclusion in the game, for "reasons"), but only stated that some of them possibly could use adjustment and refinement. One such refinement concept I can think of for Radar Dep is to have it reduce decay by the same exact amount that Adv Target Decay improves decay, making them literally balance each other out. This would have resulted in a slight delay on breaking a lock, but still rather fast compared to not having it. Then it's a balance of choices. I also would either give everyone the "chirp and flash" effects for breaking a lock and remove it from the module (I've only ever noticed it with the module equipped) or remove that from the game completely.

Of course, these concepts are kinda irrelevant because all modules seem to be getting removed (except for consumable modules). I personally feel that this probably will be a good thing, but until it happens, I can not say. I will comment here that I feel the game played better and felt more fun before any modules where placed into the game. But that also could be "the past was always better" feelings getting to me.

Bellum Dominum, on 28 December 2016 - 06:24 AM, said:

You are correct about the locked on warning. It is very subtle and totally not dependent upon radar derp. Not a clue who started this rumor but sounds to me like an awesome troll that has been way too successful.

I have only ever noticed the light flash and sound chirp when I've had Radar Dep equipped and I broke a lock. I use to wonder what people where talking about when they mentioned this before I acquired the module. (That was some time ago, for the record.)

So, unless they changed something in the last few patches and I wasn't aware of it, you only get a flash of light and a chirp sound when you brake a lock with Radar Dep on your mech. Without it, you get no such indicator.

[Tesunie]

FYI: In another thread I have watched:

Jankmon, on 28 December 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

I would highly recommend saving up enough GXP for the radar deprivation pilot skill though, that is an insane game changer that basically makes LRM boats a joke unless they are piloted by a legit good pilot.

So... If that is what other people besides me are saying... and a newer player at that...

[Bellum Dominum]

Tesunie, on 28 December 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

I have only ever noticed the light flash and sound chirp when I've had Radar Dep equipped and I broke a lock. I use to wonder what people where talking about when they mentioned this before I acquired the module. (That was some time ago, for the record.)

So, unless they changed something in the last few patches and I wasn't aware of it, you only get a flash of light and a chirp sound when you brake a lock with Radar Dep on your mech. Without it, you get no such indicator.

The light and chirp have been in the game since beta. Radar derp came WAY WAY WAY later. The two have nothing to do with each other and never have. The chirp has always been very quiet and the light is tiny especially the larger resolution you play with.
This has NEVER changed.
Got some premium time? I'd be glad to take you into some private matches and demonstrate this for you.

[Bellum Dominum]

Oh and radar derp is HIGHLY over rated.

Lets examine.

For radar derp to work you have to break line of sight from the mech that is targeting you for the lrms. Well when reacting to inbound lrms you should always be moving to cover, not simply rolling backwards behind a hill or hiding behind an assault mech. If you are responding properly and 'hugging cover' what is radar derp actually doing for you? Nothing. Those lrms are being wasted against the cover. If the lock is due to a UAV radar derp is a total waste.

Much better modules to have slotted than it honestly. Target Info Gather comes to mind as the first one. Seismic Sensor is still a great module. Those are still the two I run in most every mech.

Honestly I don't even think I have it on a single mech today. Guess what I always get the chirp, always have. Rarely notice it honestly because I'm usually engaged in a fight and as quiet as it is my own weapon fire drowns it out but the light is still there.

(EDIT: Besides from what I've been reading I was of the understanding that modules and quirks were going away. So what is the point of debating radar derp?)

Edited by Bellum Dominum, 28 December 2016 - 11:14 AM.

[Insanity09]

Even without rader dep, an LOS break does not cause instant target loss (a second or two, iirc). With rd, it is instant unless the enemy has target decay.

Getting to cover is effective IF the cover is high enough to block the arc of the LRMs. However, in some cases the cover will block only some, or even none, of the LRM damage (compared to 100% for direct weapons). Even though getting to cover can be helpful, some maps and some mechs (slower ones) make this far more difficult. It isn't necessarily a matter of pilot skill or attentiveness, and saying otherwise is frankly irresponsible at best.
For example, in river city, there are plenty of buildings high enough to block LOS, but low enough that arced LRM fire will still hit. Some knowledge of the maps helps here, which spots are safe and so on, but again, battles are fluid, and remaining stuck behind that one good building is a death sentence for other reasons.

[Tesunie]

Bellum Dominum, on 28 December 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

The light and chirp have been in the game since beta. Radar derp came WAY WAY WAY later. The two have nothing to do with each other and never have. The chirp has always been very quiet and the light is tiny especially the larger resolution you play with.
This has NEVER changed.
Got some premium time? I'd be glad to take you into some private matches and demonstrate this for you.

I can say I've been playing this game a reasonably long time, and I have never noticed any chirp or light flash unless I had Radar Dep on my mech. It's the only time I've ever noticed it, and many other people in the new player help forum has also backed up my observations. I've asked some other people about this, because I could be wrong (it is always an option), but what you are claiming does not match my observations in the game itself.

I would love to test it out in a private lobby, but I don't have premium time running, and I'd rather not activate 30 days of premium to test one theory.

Bellum Dominum, on 28 December 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

Much better modules to have slotted than it honestly. Target Info Gather comes to mind as the first one. Seismic Sensor is still a great module. Those are still the two I run in most every mech.

Honestly I don't even think I have it on a single mech today. Guess what I always get the chirp, always have. Rarely notice it honestly because I'm usually engaged in a fight and as quiet as it is my own weapon fire drowns it out but the light is still there.

(EDIT: Besides from what I've been reading I was of the understanding that modules and quirks were going away. So what is the point of debating radar derp?)

Yes. Modules are rumored to be going away with the new skill trees, except for Consumables.

You are the only person I've talked to that has recommended Target Info Gathering as a module "better than" Radar Dep. Even Seismic is recommended less often than Radar Dep, even though it is still a good module to have. Info Gathering is only truly important for brawler or sniper styled mechs, and even then not a "must have". There are many mech designs that don't gain any significant benefit from that module. But every mech benefits from Radar Dep, without question.

I've has always heard across the forums as a universal recommendation to "get Radar Derp".

In relation to LRMs, Radar Dep does a lot more than you seem to think. I've had matches where I could not lock an enemy in plain sight (or maintain a lock) because a small cable cut across their mech, instantly losing lock (despite being able to clearly see their mech) every time they cross the cable. (Was a big issue in old Terra Therma, center). It also has cause locks to become disrupted after the smallest loss of a lock, which then caused the missiles to slam into the ground where the lock was lost, even if I managed to pick the lock back up on the other side of the obstruction (such as a cargo container), because I need to require the missile lock as well, which by then my missiles have usually already hit the ground.

Overall, Radar Dep only needed a little adjusting (in my opinion) and it would have been a reasonably good choice for a module, instead of the nearly "must have" it currently is. However, with it's upcoming removal... I agree that there really is no "reason" to debate this point (besides just to do so).

Of course, our opinions are based on our perspectives. And, being opinions, we are each entitled to our own opinion. I feel it's (slightly) OP with what it does, from my experience with it. You don't see it that way from your perspective, which has formed your opinion. Of this, we can still maintain those opinions, because that's all they are in the end. (But just realize, you are wrong. ) (Yes, bad joke is bad.)

[General Solo]

Insanity09, on 28 December 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

Even without rader dep, an LOS break does not cause instant target loss (a second or two, iirc). With rd, it is instant unless the enemy has target decay.

Getting to cover is effective IF the cover is high enough to block the arc of the LRMs. However, in some cases the cover will block only some, or even none, of the LRM damage (compared to 100% for direct weapons). Even though getting to cover can be helpful, some maps and some mechs (slower ones) make this far more difficult. It isn't necessarily a matter of pilot skill or attentiveness, and saying otherwise is frankly irresponsible at best.
For example, in river city, there are plenty of buildings high enough to block LOS, but low enough that arced LRM fire will still hit. Some knowledge of the maps helps here, which spots are safe and so on, but again, battles are fluid, and remaining stuck behind that one good building is a death sentence for other reasons.

Even so you only get hit by one volley two at most
Because your in cover denying LOS, lock is eventually broken
That's a fair trade trade

With direct fire the damage would be done already before you reached cover

[Tesunie]

OZHomerOZ, on 28 December 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

Even so you only get hit by one volley two at most
Because your in cover denying LOS, lock is eventually broken
That's a fair trade trade

With direct fire the damage would be done already before you reached cover

With RD, you probably wont get hit at all with LRMs because the lock is lost instantly.
With RD and ATD, you might get hit with a volley of LRMs, but highly unlikely.
With Std decay alone, you might get hit with a single volley.
With ATD and no RD, you probably will still get hit with one volley, two if you are very unlucky. (And I mean, full volleys, not chain fired LRM5 launchers.) That is unless the terrain is blocking the LRM arc (which happens a lot actually).
(All taken in the above situation, where you duck behind cover after LRMs have been launched. Presuming a reasonable distance of around 600m, etc.)

You are correct with the comparison to direct fire weapons, which already would have dealt it's damage, if you hit with the shot of course.

Everything should have a give and a take. LRMs trade instant damage and pin point damage for it's ability to shoot at targets indirectly. However, for a weapon system many people consider sub par, there certainly does seem to be plenty of whine about it, as well as plenty of counters for them. (ECM, AMS, RD, etc.)

I recall that ATD was added into the game to help LRMs counter ECM at that time (which it didn't do much to counter the ECM of that time). Then RD seemed to have been added in to counter ATD, but did it better than what ATD granted as a bonus... LRMs always seem to be in a state of flux. One small change, and now it's LRMagadon. Another tweak, and LRMs are worthless. I feel that ATD, RD and ECM all need to have a look at, and all could use some tweeks. Of course, if they were going to remain in the game. If modules are to be removed with the new skill tree, than that would be meaningless now.

Right now, I feel we are approaching a good balance between the cost of utility, and it's effectiveness as a weapon system. It shouldn't be the best weapon system in the game (or "easy mode"), and there should be costs to balance out it's effect. (And sorry if I drifted away from the original context I quoted. Tired and my mind tends to wonder more when I'm tired.)

[Steel Raven]

I doubt we will ever get to a 'balance' that everyone agrees with. I still think it's nuts AC/5s are out preforming PPCs.