307 replies to this topic

[Kali Rinpoche]

LRMs are a valid weapon in Battletech, Some mechs, especially IS mechs that can't swap hot spots rely on them for their functionality. Whining about lrms serves no purpose. If you're getting chewed by them, you're not staying aware of your surroundings. Someone shouldn't be able to pound on you for more than 2 volleys before you should be blocking LoS for the rest.

LRMs are just like Artillery to the infantry grunt. It kills you but you can't shoot back. It's frustrating but we have no right to tell others how to run their builds.

Edited by Kali Rinpoche, 08 January 2017 - 08:28 PM.

[Steel Raven]

It's how people use it that pisses everyone off. When you got someone with skill using LRMs, no one complains. When you get someone firing into the dirt and doing everything possible to stay out of the fight, your team is not going to have nice things to say. People have been seeing more of the later rather than the former.

It's not only LURMers, seen sniper run away to a hiding spot and shut down rather than fight a losing match (a Kodiak of all things! A Kodiak with a Gauss! ) Some just choose the path of least resistance that more often feels trolling than fighting and it's the easiest way to get on the wrong side of this community.

[Van Tuz]

Here's a point of view from a relatively new pilot.

There's a difference between hate towards LRM users and towards LRM as a weapon. While hate towards bad or egoistic LRM users is generally understood here no one seems to truly understand the hate towards LRM as a weapon and LRM boat as a playstyle.

1) Ease of use.
LRM boats don't need precision aiming or target leading like snipers do.
LRM boats don't need map knowledge or evasion and timing skills like flankers do.
LRM boats don't need armor preservation skills, aiming at high speed targets, aiming under view shake or ten ton worth of luck like brawlers do.
LRM boats don't need full lance on voice comms to play as a team while solo brawler can't even see what his allies are doing while he's trying to push.
Just point at red, vomit all missiles and get money.

2) Receiving end.
You know what happens when you abandon "poke and hide", the only valid playstyle, and try to push. You get "incoming missiles", Your AMS throws a welcoming fireworks then your view goes haywire and then your mech explodes. You don't even know where it came from unless you happen to be looking there.
There's tons of talk about "radar deprivation", "AMS overload" etc. But newcomers don't have any of that. You may say "it's low-tier play" but i would say that it's the first impression. And it matters.

Bellum Dominum, on 28 December 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

The past few days I've dropped in my 3 AMS, ECM Kitfox, with AMS Overload & AMS Range modules + the Kitfox quirks... I started to almost feel bad for the enemy lrm boats lol.

How many mechs can equip 3 AMS? One? Two? Most AMS-capable mechs i know of can equip only one, rarely two. So that's the exception, not the rule.

3) Results.

Oldbob10025, on 23 November 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

I can on average between 600 and 800 points of damage each game... and it's pretty easy to do

Well let me tell you my story. My average damage on King Crab over 23 matches is 250. Yeah, call me a scrub, whatever. I play solo, i don't run any meta builds and AC/20 isn't an easy weapon to use. During my moderately successful run i can deal about 400-450 damage (and i'm suspecting half of it from LRM-15). Dying with less than 100 points of damage dealt (as assault mech) while trying to push enemies out of domination circle is not something out of ordinary to me. The only thing that makes a difference between successful push and dying while horribly overextended is a sheer luck.
Should i mention that the amount of money you get is proportional to the damage you dealt? Spectating an LRM boat sending unending streams of vomit without any risk or much effort and realising that he will get 2-3 times more money from that match brings... let's say a feeling of class inequality. Even if this is a skilled and polite player. Hearing "don't like it - don't play it but don't you dare hate us" is just adding insult to injury.

Edited by Van Tuz, 09 January 2017 - 12:22 AM.

[Insanity09]

I think you raise some good points, Van Tuz.

Regardless of how many other players say LRMs suck, for newer players and players in the lower tiers, that is simply not true.
I've also seen comments from high tier folks that grudgingly admit that they have their uses (though as secondary, not primary weapons, mostly).

So, rather than berating folks for using them, a little mentoring or coaching might be more productive. Help people understand how to counter them and help those who insist on using them to gain skills with other weapons while using their beloved LRMs as useful tools and backup weapons.

[MacClearly]

Tesunie, on 08 January 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

May I ask (and forgive me if you've already answered this), how long have you been playing this game?

I ask because, long ago in a galaxy far away, we use to not even have ECM. LRMs where very much still in the game, and where not deemed over powered (on the average, with a couple faux pas mishaps exceptions). This was long before any module was even considered. I remember those days, and LRMs remained relatively effective, but didn't rule the battlefield. Direct fire weapons were still considered better as an average rule.

So, your theory that LRMs would become over powered I believe is a misplaced belief. They've been around a lot longer than many of their new counter systems (besides maybe AMS). Only a few times where LRMs considered too powerful, and each time it was normally because of a bug. (Like when Artemis was first added into the game, LRMs went in a straight up, over and done on the head of mechs path. Many mechs died from LRM hits to their head component... Now that was OP LRMs! And a complete and unintentional bug in the system.)


For the record, I actually don't want LRMs to become "all supreme overlord" of weapons. They should be a "weaker" (relatively speaking) weapon when compared to direct fire weapons. They should be weaker (in some sense) because they are a utility weapon. This utility and flexibility in their function should be their strength, leaving them powerful in their role (indirect fire, "terror tactics" providing bells and whistle warnings, pushing people into cover, forcing the enemy to move, innate focused fire, etc). This strength should be countered by some weakness (minimum range, spread, requirement for locks (this possibly could use some work though), etc).

In any LRM debate, I will never hide the LRMs weaknesses. However, I also am not going to sweep their strengths under the rug either. They have their uses, and in those uses and situations, they can be very good to have. I will never imply that LRMs are the greatest weapon, but neither am I going to say it's the worst weapon in the game either. They have their place and the run in the middle of the weapon rankings, depending upon what one is seeking to do.


To be honest, our target sharing is a little "off". We essentially have mini C3 computers in our mechs for free, which is why LRMs seem to function as they do. In lore (which I know doesn't always translate to a live action computer game, and I wont even try to on this one), LRMs could shoot at targets indirectly. How this was done though wasn't by computer target sharing, but instead by someone relaying comm positions from the front line to their back line support mechs. Then, the LRM mechs would shoot their LRMs blindly at the positions indicated and hope they hit.

Also, our LRMs don't have standard munitions, but actually have the advanced Homing LRM type ammunition. This is what lets our LRMs "home in" on targets that we have locked, and what would work with TAG and NARC systems. There are also other ammunition types we don't have in the game, such as Thunder LRMs which would deploy mines if they hit the ground.

As I said, LRMs are suppose to be a utility weapon. In this game they have some of their utility built in, but other pieces are lacking. However, don't even get me started on ECM, which does far more than it should, even with the need to change things to match a real time video game "simulator". Then we have Radar Dep on top of that (currently), AMS Overload, etc.


Of course, some of this may become moot once the new skill system comes in. We don't know exactly for sure what will be in the new skill system, and what will not make it. PGI may even change their minds on how things will work before it's released. We just don't know. Which is why I kinda speak on the forums like the new system is "coming" but make points about how the current system works. I can't talk about something I don't know about yet.

10 months. 170+ mechs over a couple of different profiles. Former member of HHoD and current member of BCMC. Tier 2 almost tier 1. Under MacClearly the data available over the last seven seasons show me playing 3190 matches in quick play alone and I am very focused on FW. I know a lot of players who have been around and have learned a lot from very experienced and seasoned comp players and FW focused players. None of this makes me special and I would only recently start to consider myself as becoming a competent player. What it does however indicate is that I am a very active player and very involved in the game and its community.

Also from the perspective of having alt accounts and tier five ten months ago not being that distant of a memory, I have formed an opinion not only through experience but my interaction with others. However this does not make me a qualified expert nor is this a debate, rather it is a discussion.

You intimated so I rather windily obliged.

That being said, in the lower tiers while folks are learning the ropes, lrms are terrible in a couple of distinct ways. First the user who depends on them without learning to play them well, still can easily achieve a great deal of success. It serves to reinforce bad habits and in many ways (from my observation) is seen on players who range from soloists to ardently anti-social. I have gotten into arguments with tier 3 and 4 players who insist that their maximum effectiveness is 700+ metres and that I am an a hole for not getting them locks. That I am the bad teammate in this scenario. Especially a tier 4 guy who told me he was a four year vet of this game... Do you know how absolutely terrible you have to play to stay in tier 4 for a long time? When I started my Evil Goof profile I was in tier 3 after five games. I actually had to create another profile and intentionally tank in a trial mech to stay in the lower tier and even in the Zeus I got bumped to tier 4 somehow. So while the tier system is anything but perfect, not getting out of the lower tiers is a very strong indication of poor understanding of the game and not playing well. This is where most of the dedicated lurmers live. Now from the new player perspective the steep learning curve, and the over saturation of lurmers in the new player tiers, make getting that radar derp an essential unlock. Most new players have felt the burn of being melted by two or three lurmers with no LOS. In the lower tiers lrms are in fact a powerful and effective weapon. What on earth would happen if they were made so they were extremely effective in tier 1??? Imagine the hell new players would have to go through without radar derp? It would be gross and likely would chase more people away from the game than anything.

As far as ECM I don't know how you'd have trouble with its function as it is pretty self explanatory in its very name. Again how you think it 'should' work doesn't seem a very popular opinion and luckily for the rest of us PGI doesn't seem to agree.

Now for the skill tree, I don't have the reddit but Russ tweeted out that radar derp was included. I doubt considering how many people view lrms that PGI would even contemplate removing it. While subject to change it has also been pointed out that you can see it in the example of the skill tree. Chances of it going anywhere are very low.

[Colonel Clunge]

* What makes people hate LRM's is the fact that they're the only weapon that can ignore a player's direct line of sight so long as targeting information is fed via UAV or another player. What a lot of them don't know is that you can throw off LRM's by shutting your mech down, and then rebooting to get away - once the lock is lost, the missiles will go haywire, and will only seek again if someone is providing them locks (or worse, they never stop seeking because someone is providing targeting information as a ninja sniper). Aside from AMS, you cannot shoot the missiles down and you sometimes cannot shoot back at the guy that's firing them. Aside from shutting down your mech once behind cover to screw up the locks, a tactic I've seen work against LRM-boat players is to over-run their positions and cut them down - Most LRM-boat builds are not built for close-range engagements, so once a brawler gets in good shooting range with a clean line of sight, it's game over for the LRM unless they've managed to do enough damage, and can try to finish the job with whatever non-missile weapons or SRM's they might have. Anyways, insightful video, +1.

Quick question here - does this shutdown method work if you are Narc'd? I have to admit getting very, very frustrated recently with getting lurmed even behind cover with Radar Derp installed before I noticed I had been narc'd....! I didn't rage quick but comms channels were pretty blue for a few seconds!

If shutdown doesn't work, what's the best method for combating narc?

Thanks

[Burke IV]

Here is a good tip tho, if you are facing a LRM mech at short to med range that is pointing a tag at you and you try shutting down he wont even have to take his finger off the trigger, just keep pointing that tag and the LRMs will hit you anyway, if you retsart your mech, lock will reaquire and any that flew up in the air will come back down and the LRMs will just keep coming because you are now locked. Shutting your mech down, i think LRMs go to the last known location, so just switching off doesnt save you, you got to move, secondly if you start up again and the lock is reaquired you just get hit anyway. If you want to dodge LRMs hide behind something. My best and favourite LRM targets are the ones that give up as soon as they get hit, they just stand there like they are moaning in chat or something. Dont complain, think. There are ways to dodge LRMs.

Edited by Burke IV, 09 January 2017 - 09:04 AM.

[Damnedtroll]

I was using a metabuild atlas with four srm6 artemis , ac20 and med lasers. It's a high alpha build but an all or nothing design. After been pissed off a couple of times on Polar.... replaced two of the srm6 with a lrm15 artemis. I can now fend off enemy until i am in shortrange. Now it's a better beast, not meta but not an all or nothing design.

LRM for me is a support weapon, an harassing weapon. The weapon you can use when you cannot use others... some people are making comments in game about me shooting my only backup long range weapon in my atlas, don't know why... but some haters do. wtf

The biggest problem is ''LRM boat'' an LRM only mech with 2000 reload and with only 200 used in the game. That's not a team build, it's a lame build. Bring some backup weapons and stay with the team.

Edited by Damnedtroll, 09 January 2017 - 09:24 AM.

[Van Tuz]

Insanity09, on 09 January 2017 - 01:21 AM, said:

Help people understand how to counter them

I've also seen comments from high tier folks that grudgingly admit that they have their uses (though as secondary, not primary weapons, mostly).

In my book a weapon that's extremely effective against newbies but becomes ineffective if you learn some easy tricks or install some equipment is broken. It doesn't matter if its power against newbies is statistically compensated by its weakness against veterans. This can't be solved with simple numbers tweaking.
IMHO LRM is not OP, not UP but broken mechanically.
The best way to solve this would be reducing the ability to make pure LRM boats making LRM a secondary weapon and at the same time making sure that it is a good secondary weapon.
Example:
1) Reduce the ammo per ton for LRM by 2-3 times. That way we reduce the time that pure LRM boats can sit back and spew missiles at their leisure. Reduces the impact on low tiers.
2) (Partially) compensate ammo density loss for specialised LRM mechs like Catapult via quirks.
3) Make LRM keep their locks even if target drops out of sight. Make it reliable and worth bringing in high-tier play.
4) Make each AMS to shoot down 30% of missiles regardless of their count. Every subsequent AMS should shoot down 30% of what's left. With the diminishing returns on AMS its initial impact can be increased to a solid level. At the same time many AMS in a deathball won't stop LRM completely allowing it to be a softening tool.

Am i crazy? Did somebody suggested this before? If so, what was the reaction from devs/community?

[Steel Raven]

Van Tuz, on 09 January 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

3) Make LRM keep their locks even if target drops out of sight. Make it reliable and worth bringing in high-tier play.

... your suggesting something close to Streak LRMs, bad idea.

Decreasing the flight time/increasing the velocity would make LRMs harder to dodge without turning all of them into heat seeking missiles and make them a little closer to PPCs and such. You can still dodge them but your reflexes have to be that much faster. It would also make it easier to fire off the hip, some of those chicken lurmers I have been complaining about may find a spine once the learn to not wait for a lock.

[Barkem Squirrel]

People here saying, LRMs are crap.

Ok, then lets have LRMs go back to the 170 meters per second one patch did to LRMs, right before an emergency patch to lower them down to 160 mps. Then lets raise the angle of decent for the LRMs or allow for LRMs to break lock go strait and then reacquire to make the LRMs either go straight down come back to the target in stead of a certain flight path. Most of all if they suck so much lets buff the damage back to 1.5 per missile.

Nothing much for a weapons system that sucks.

• Buff the velocity (note people screamed bloody murder at that speed before)
  
• change the flight to a steeper decline to the target (Wait, that's what caused a LRMagedon before)
  
• Go back to when you could break lock on a mech in cover (behind something solid), just so that you could cause the LRMs to reacquire Lock and come straight down ignoring the cover. (that was so fun before and people got so mad)
  
• Buff the Damage to 1.5 or even 1.1 where it was at for a while.
  
• Then the the one I like reduce the lock on time if they still suck.

Right now LRMs are decent, but do not work well against the hyper aggressive play stile. Even with you do not get as much damage, due to people killed so fast by a murder ball.


Then there are those few, that can go up against an Assault lance alone, kill them without taking any damage. (Yes, multiple times. Why: terrain, target limitations, elevations, speed, using a JJ LRM boat griffin and on Tromoline) Or peak the ridge on caustic valley to get that early free kill. (the only problem was trying to get the second free kill, some times you would stay too long).

Now I hear, or see in chat, a #$%@ LRM Jenner IIc. Sure it is stormcrow slow (same speed as an adder) and packs the annoying LRM 5's just like a Catapult, but runs faster and can jump higher. Just think, how dangerous is six LRM 5's in a mech strafing someone at 300 m. Sure I can run 720 LRMs in an Oxide, but how many people can say that they have done over 720 damage with that load out? (Twice and highest was 756) Imagine me with 1440 LRMs, can I get over 1440? I think 1350 is possible myself, but not much more.

People want LRMs nerfed and scream bloody murder any time LRMs get a little buff, but mean while there are a few people out there that can make LRMs curve around buildings, drop straight on your head in cover (not concealment that is something else) and hit you under the deck on Crimson Straights. Then if we are in bouncy LRMey mechs we can do back flips over direwhales while maintaining the chain fire and minimum 180 m range. At least they were telling me that I was doing back flips.

So LRMs suck, but we can not have LRMs buffed. Even with the nerfing there still are a few people out there that can make a 2 LRM 10 Urbie work. Think about a poptarting NARCing, LRMing meta, any nightmares about certain maps, yet?

Edited by Barkem Squirrel, 09 January 2017 - 10:45 AM.

[Tesunie]

Van Tuz, on 08 January 2017 - 11:48 PM, said:

1) Ease of use.
LRM boats don't need map knowledge or evasion and timing skills like flankers do.

2) Receiving end.
You know what happens when you abandon "poke and hide", the only valid playstyle, and try to push. You get "incoming missiles", Your AMS throws a welcoming fireworks then your view goes haywire and then your mech explodes. You don't even know where it came from unless you happen to be looking there.
There's tons of talk about "radar deprivation", "AMS overload" etc. But newcomers don't have any of that. You may say "it's low-tier play" but i would say that it's the first impression. And it matters.

3) Results.

Well let me tell you my story. My average damage on King Crab over 23 matches is 250. Yeah, call me a scrub, whatever. I play solo, i don't run any meta builds and AC/20 isn't an easy weapon to use. During my moderately successful run i can deal about 400-450 damage (and i'm suspecting half of it from LRM-15). Dying with less than 100 points of damage dealt (as assault mech) while trying to push enemies out of domination circle is not something out of ordinary to me. The only thing that makes a difference between successful push and dying while horribly overextended is a sheer luck.
Should i mention that the amount of money you get is proportional to the damage you dealt? Spectating an LRM boat sending unending streams of vomit without any risk or much effort and realising that he will get 2-3 times more money from that match brings... let's say a feeling of class inequality. Even if this is a skilled and polite player. Hearing "don't like it - don't play it but don't you dare hate us" is just adding insult to injury.

I'm going to respond to the remarks in order.
1. LRM users actually need to have a good understanding and knowledge of the map to do well and play effectively. This doesn't include "spray and pray" where you spam missiles at every lock possible. What I refer to is shooting missiles with the intent of them doing something, be it damage, pushing the enemy into cover, or just sending warnings in their cockpit in the attempt to back of a teammate.

Now, here are my examples and why I say this. An LRM user needs to know not just the possible cover in front and between their target (which is what is needed for direct fire weapons), but also needs to know the terrain above their targets even. Tourmaline has several areas that direct fire weapons can be used, but they are practically protected by LRMs due to a crystal formation leaning above them. You need to know if someone is inside the tunnel on Crimson Straight or Frozen City, and I can't tell you how many times I've seen people trying to shoot LRMs at targets while they are inside those areas. Same goes for the docks in Crimson and the HPG umbrella in the center of the map. Even some of the cabling in (old and new) Terra Therma can block those LRMs. Canyon has those rock bridges.

As for awareness, they need to try and be alert to flankers and other mechs trying to get close to them undetected. They still need to learn to read the enemy team, and try and find positions that they can be protected (typically near their team, I would hope). They still even benefit from knowing how to play their armor defensively and trying to roll damage around (because, hopefully, they are with there team, and not alone). Some of these skills may not need to be as sharp as others, but they are still needed.

Basically, easy to use. Hard to master.

2. You are completely correct with that being the possible new player introduction. However, I would state that one of the skills that a player needs to develop is to be able to tell where cover is, breaking line of sight as well as being able to determine where the attack is coming from. AMS would help, if more people would use it in the lower tiers. A team staying near each other with an AMS on every mech is not going to have much problems with any LRMs. But then again... They would have to know this AND stay together. Two things new players wont know, and that PUGs (QP) players probably don't do...

3. Assaults are hard to play. They are slow and, once they commit to an action, they have to continue following through with it. Most PUGs will wander off once they take the slightest bit of damage, leaving assaults to wallow on their own and die. This is also why you probably see a lot of new players picking up Assaults (for health and "it's big") and then cramming LRMs into them. They feel they are doing great sometimes, but don't realize that they aren't always being a help to the team overall. They also pile on the LRMs because, once committed to an action... They don't know when to commit (who does in a PUG group most times), so they develop a fear of committing, so they hide in the back with LRMs where they no longer need to commit and die...


Besides some points in topic 1, I think you've described a lot of the issues with LRMs in the game at lower tiers. Some of it only comes with experience and play. Others is just poor information that some people will refuse to look up or just "know it's this way" even if they are wrong.

MacClearly, on 09 January 2017 - 07:16 AM, said:

10 months. 170+ mechs over a couple of different profiles. Former member of HHoD and current member of BCMC. Tier 2 almost tier 1. Under MacClearly the data available over the last seven seasons show me playing 3190 matches in quick play alone and I am very focused on FW. I know a lot of players who have been around and have learned a lot from very experienced and seasoned comp players and FW focused players. None of this makes me special and I would only recently start to consider myself as becoming a competent player. What it does however indicate is that I am a very active player and very involved in the game and its community.

Also from the perspective of having alt accounts and tier five ten months ago not being that distant of a memory, I have formed an opinion not only through experience but my interaction with others. However this does not make me a qualified expert nor is this a debate, rather it is a discussion.

You intimated so I rather windily obliged.

That being said, in the lower tiers while folks are learning the ropes, lrms are terrible in a couple of distinct ways. First the user who depends on them without learning to play them well, still can easily achieve a great deal of success. It serves to reinforce bad habits and in many ways (from my observation) is seen on players who range from soloists to ardently anti-social. I have gotten into arguments with tier 3 and 4 players who insist that their maximum effectiveness is 700+ metres and that I am an a hole for not getting them locks. That I am the bad teammate in this scenario. Especially a tier 4 guy who told me he was a four year vet of this game... Do you know how absolutely terrible you have to play to stay in tier 4 for a long time? When I started my Evil Goof profile I was in tier 3 after five games. I actually had to create another profile and intentionally tank in a trial mech to stay in the lower tier and even in the Zeus I got bumped to tier 4 somehow. So while the tier system is anything but perfect, not getting out of the lower tiers is a very strong indication of poor understanding of the game and not playing well. This is where most of the dedicated lurmers live. Now from the new player perspective the steep learning curve, and the over saturation of lurmers in the new player tiers, make getting that radar derp an essential unlock. Most new players have felt the burn of being melted by two or three lurmers with no LOS. In the lower tiers lrms are in fact a powerful and effective weapon. What on earth would happen if they were made so they were extremely effective in tier 1??? Imagine the hell new players would have to go through without radar derp? It would be gross and likely would chase more people away from the game than anything.

As far as ECM I don't know how you'd have trouble with its function as it is pretty self explanatory in its very name. Again how you think it 'should' work doesn't seem a very popular opinion and luckily for the rest of us PGI doesn't seem to agree.

Now for the skill tree, I don't have the reddit but Russ tweeted out that radar derp was included. I doubt considering how many people view lrms that PGI would even contemplate removing it. While subject to change it has also been pointed out that you can see it in the example of the skill tree. Chances of it going anywhere are very low.

Your forum date says you've been here (at least on the forums) since 2011 (if I'm reading it right). But this date has been known to be wrong, which is why I asked.

I only asked how long you've played for recollection sake on previous "versions" of MW:O. So I would know if you experienced the game before modules and stuff. If you've only been here for 10 months, that would explain why you wouldn't recall a time before ECM and Radar Dep. The game worked fine back then without those pieces of gear. Since their release, it's been kinda a middle ground. It's improved in some ways, not in others. Anyway...


I would ask, as much as I have also seen people mis-read the effectiveness of LRMs and demanding of locks of their team for them... I am not that kind of LRM user. LRMs are more effective the closer to minimum range that they can get. They also benefit more from having direct line of sight than indirect (for the most part). I ask people to hold locks if they can, but I also understand that a teammate still alive is better for me than a teammate who died for "me to use a lock". I always try to tell people to break locks if they have to, to survive. You are no good to me dead. So, I would applaud you for surviving, but I would get angry (with or without LRMs) if I saw a teammate intentionally never getting locks. (And yes, I've seen and had teammates intentionally drop locks as soon as they saw the missile icon, because "They don't want to help an LRM useless no skill player". I can recall one such match where I jokingly said "Don't make me get my own locks. You won't like me if I have to get my own locks. " (Face was to promote that I was joking.) Needless to say, the team actually took me up on the challenge, and my whole team refused to get any locks and would drop them as soon as they got them (not joking). Somehow in that match, I out performed everyone else on my team, getting my own locks (which I intended to do anyway for the most part)...) Getting locks helps the team, not just the LRM users.

I believe I've mentioned it before (and I could be thinking of a different thread), but new accounts get an accelerated boost to their PSR gain and loss. Once you are past that boosting stage of the new account, it becomes a lot harder to change tiers. When PSR first came out, both this account and my own alt (a stock mech only account for some private events (Lt Kataren if you wished to know)) were each started out at T4. My main account quickly went to T3 and then bounced a little between T3 and T4 before I 'settled'. Now I'm T3 (Edit) almost to T3 T2 (Edit, wrong T number. Sentence got jumbled). My Alt account though is still T4, but is also almost T3 and has used only stock mechs, unaltered from their time of purchase.

Anyway, now that I've rambled off the topic (sorry), I do agree that LRMs do seem to be more common to the lower tiers. And I do agree that LRMs should be more viable in all tiers of play. But, the issue becomes how does one balance the system so it's effective in T1 without being completely decimating in T5? T5 users don't even typically have Radar Dep, and they might have AMS or ECM on their mechs... Maybe. But, if you place more counters to LRMs, than they become less effective all around. Buff them up, and they become more effective in T1, but even more effective in T5. LRMs have always seemed to have a hard point to balance in this game...


My problem with ECM isn't what it's described to do... it's what it does in this game. By the backing of what it's suppose to do in lore, it's doing too much in this game. Then, ECM also creates a double penalty on any long range locking weapons (LRMs almost exclusively). Here is what ECM does in the game (just for review):
- Prevents locks on the mech(s) at range. (Can be counted with NARC. UAVs and TAG can permit locks and counters this ability completely.)
- Slows down missile locks, making it take longer to gain the locks. (This can be counted with NARC. UAVs and TAG do nothing against this (for the most part).)

What this means is that, even if I can get a target lock on an ECMed mech, if I have a locking weapon (LRMs) it will still take about twice as long to get a lock. Often, by this point, the lock may be lost again (from Radar Dep even), resetting the whole counter.

If ECM did one ability or the other, I think it would be far more fair. Especially considering it's a piece of gear that only weights 1.5 tons (and technically requires "no skill" to use). What I would want is for ECM to create a delay in the ability to acquire a lock, but if said ECMed unit stands out in the open, eventually a lock could be obtained. This would encourage ECM for more stealth, and not LRM protection, but require some measure of skill to use and penalize people who want to treat it like it's a cloaking device.

For the record, ECM isn't suppose to do half that stuff in lore. It should disable all LRM enhancements (Artemis, Narc, TAG, etc), but otherwise leave the rest of LRMs alone. (Not easy to translate from TT to MW:O styled games.) Then, it should also be able to create ghost targets (no idea how this could work in this game), as well as mask the signature of the mech (AKA: no damage display, no weapons display, and no mech type/designation. Not even a target designation to it.). It also, in lore, disables communications within it's influence (which you can't enforce in this game with external comms being used) as well as C3 computers (so disable target info sharing) and BAPs (but the let you know you are being jammed, which is now base in this game).

For the record, I'm not alone on my feelings here about ECM. Doesn't mean I want ECM to become useless or removed though. Just, needs some adjustments. And even I don't know what exactly it might need. I know I'd love to experiment and see how certain changes might have on the game...


You are very probably correct about the new Skill Trees. However, I like to take a "wait and see" approach. It probably will be there, but I just advise that it might not be either. We just don't know until it comes out live in the game. And that doesn't even mean it might not be removed later (which I also doubt).

Colonel Clunge, on 09 January 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

If shutdown doesn't work, what's the best method for combating narc?

Thanks

Shutting down last I knew counters NARC beacons. However, I could be wrong as I've never tested this personally. The next best thing to do if you are NARCed is to find cover that is tall enough (twice the height of your mech) or hug a nearby ECM ally.
Besides that, AMS. It works no matter what!
...
As long as it has ammo and remains functioning...

You'd be surprised at how many missiles a single AMS can shoot down, given the correct situation. Even then, it's better than nothing and it will reduce incoming LRM damage at least.


Personally, I don't recommend shutting down for the most part. It just leaves you immobile and easy to hit. If you do shut down, do so behind cover, not out in the open. If you don't have cover, you are a target for every weapon in the game, even unlocked and unguided LRMs.

Burke IV, on 09 January 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

Here is a good tip tho, if you are facing a LRM mech at short to med range that is pointing a tag at you and you try shutting down he wont even have to take his finger off the trigger, just keep pointing that tag and the LRMs will hit you anyway, if you retsart your mech, lock will reaquire and any that flew up in the air will come back down and the LRMs will just keep coming because you are now locked. Shutting your mech down, i think LRMs go to the last known location, so just switching off doesnt save you, you got to move, secondly if you start up again and the lock is reaquired you just get hit anyway. If you want to dodge LRMs hide behind something. My best and favourite LRM targets are the ones that give up as soon as they get hit, they just stand there like they are moaning in chat or something. Dont complain, think. There are ways to dodge LRMs.

Shutting down does remove the missile (and target) locks on you. However, realize that LRMs will continue to home in on the last spot the lock was in. This often results in LRMs still hitting you, but does mean additional LRMs would have to be blind fired without a lock. Jumping into the air high and then shutting down is a good way to avoid LRMs, if you even can. It will damage your legs a bit, but the LRMs will home in on your aerial location you where at when you shut down. Thus, making them fly over your head.

As for TAG, it does not counter the effects of being shut down. However, a stationary target can still be hit with LRMs, as LRMs can be fired without a lock.

Edited by Tesunie, 09 January 2017 - 10:02 PM.

[Moomtazz]

Variants of this thread have been on the forum for years. LRMs are overly effective in lower tiers where radar derp and ECM are less common, and players generally put themselves in bad position more often. LRM users therefore move to higher tiers and think they are still effective, but they actually aren't due to increased radar derp use, more ECM mechs, and better competition.

My complaint against LRMs has always been that the game allows multiple LRM mechs to very easily launch on the same target without needing LOS.

[Moomtazz]

Had a match tonight and the enemy team had a LRM Oxide and LRM Griffin 2N. Sorry, but that is really handicapping your team. I don't think my little return to MWO will last very long. Maybe another year will see some improvement.

[Tesunie]

Moomtazz, on 09 January 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

Had a match tonight and the enemy team had a LRM Oxide and LRM Griffin 2N. Sorry, but that is really handicapping your team. I don't think my little return to MWO will last very long. Maybe another year will see some improvement.

Question: What is wrong with them using those builds?

This is a game. It's designed to have fun with. If they are having fun using those builds... I don't honestly see the issue here. In theory, if they perform poorly too often, than they will drop in PSR levels. Eventually, you (as T1) would no longer have to worry about them, as they will play themselves out of your tier. Unless... Of course they perform reasonably well anyway and stay in that tier on their own...

[BlueFlames]

Hah! HAHAHA!

PSR as a measure of skill.... Hoo.... Haven't heard a side-splitter like that in a while.

Seriously, all it takes to have a positive PSR movement in a match is to deal ~200 damage and get carried to victory. Even the worst LRM-boating nitwits can make it to Tier One, as long as they spend enough time grinding.

That said, I'd rather have an LRM Oxide taking up a light slot on my team than have an LRM Atlas hogging one of the assault slots. Sure, it's a handicap for the team, but it's a notably smaller handicap than you'd get from having an assault absent from a push.

[Tesunie]

BlueFlames, on 09 January 2017 - 10:41 PM, said:

PSR as a measure of skill.... Hoo.... Haven't heard a side-splitter like that in a while.

Hence i believe I said "In theory".

Personally, all you need to do is win, and your PSR is solid. PSR doesn't actually (in my opinion) rate a players actual skill. If it did, than winning and losing wouldn't be 90% (random number, but you get what I mean) of the equation. Right now, PSR is highly linked to winning, not actually skillful play... And even then, most of the rating is based on match score, which is based heavily on damage scores... And high damage scores isn't always indicative of skill. (And, even if you think about it, most of your Match score rewards are based around damage. Component destroyed is damage based. Assists are damage based. Kills and Kill most damage dealts are damage based. Solo kills are damage based. Etc.)

However, I recommend people just play what they want to play that they have fun in (that follows the rules of the game as placed down by PGI). If someone wishes to use LRMs, than nothing should actually stop them from doing so. If someone wishes to boat Gauss and PPCs, what's to say they can't do so? Etc. It's a game, have a little fun with it. (And this doesn't mean to not try and win your matches, but that fun should still be a consideration.)

[Van Tuz]

Steel Raven, on 09 January 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

... your suggesting something close to Streak LRMs, bad idea.

Decreasing the flight time/increasing the velocity would make LRMs harder to dodge without turning all of them into heat seeking missiles and make them a little closer to PPCs and such. You can still dodge them but your reflexes have to be that much faster. It would also make it easier to fire off the hip, some of those chicken lurmers I have been complaining about may find a spine once the learn to not wait for a lock.

In isolation - maybe. But combined with better AMS and/or less LRM ammo per boat it may work very well. This particular change is supposed to make them more effective against ECM and radar deprivation so equipping LRM won't be considered a wasted tonnage in higher tiers.

I don't think that equalising sniping weapons and LRM is a good idea. The whole point of LRM is the ability to hit a target behind almighty cover. Removing it is detrimental to the variety of gameplay regardless of how effective it might become.
Besides, if LRM-boater sits in the back lines because of safety then no amount of frontline power can nudge him forward.

Tesunie, on 09 January 2017 - 01:40 PM, said:

I'm going to respond to the remarks in order.
1. LRM users actually need to have a good understanding and knowledge of the map to do well and play effectively.
...
As for awareness, they need to try and be alert to flankers and other mechs trying to get close to them undetected.
...
Basically, easy to use. Hard to master.

2. However, I would state that one of the skills that a player needs to develop is to be able to tell where cover is, breaking line of sight as well as being able to determine where the attack is coming from.
...
A team staying near each other with an AMS on every mech is not going to have much problems with any LRMs.

1) I'm not denying that map knowledge helps but it's not required. Unlike flankers, LRM player can perform well even on unfamiliar map.
...
Just like anyone else.
...
I would say that LRM boat is the easiest class to "master" compared to other roles. Not saying that this is inherently a bad thing though, so i don't see much of a reason arguing about it any longer. Everyone has its own truth.

2) Basically learning to "poke and hide", right? I would say that i have a disagreement with cover being the best answer for all questions.

Also, i think that you are overestimating AMS capabilities.

Quote

It appears that one AMS blocks approximately 3 missiles per LRM volley. A moduled-up AMS will take out approximately 5 LRMs per volley

Shooting down 3 missiles out of 20-30 in a volley (we're talking about newbies with no access to modules) isn't really helping to reduce neither damage nor view shake (fun fact: LRM have more impulse than AC/20).

Edited by Van Tuz, 10 January 2017 - 12:59 AM.

[MacClearly]

Tesunie, on 09 January 2017 - 01:40 PM, said:

I'm going to respond to the remarks in order.
1. LRM users actually need to have a good understanding and knowledge of the map to do well and play effectively. This doesn't include "spray and pray" where you spam missiles at every lock possible. What I refer to is shooting missiles with the intent of them doing something, be it damage, pushing the enemy into cover, or just sending warnings in their cockpit in the attempt to back of a teammate.

Now, here are my examples and why I say this. An LRM user needs to know not just the possible cover in front and between their target (which is what is needed for direct fire weapons), but also needs to know the terrain above their targets even. Tourmaline has several areas that direct fire weapons can be used, but they are practically protected by LRMs due to a crystal formation leaning above them. You need to know if someone is inside the tunnel on Crimson Straight or Frozen City, and I can't tell you how many times I've seen people trying to shoot LRMs at targets while they are inside those areas. Same goes for the docks in Crimson and the HPG umbrella in the center of the map. Even some of the cabling in (old and new) Terra Therma can block those LRMs. Canyon has those rock bridges.

As for awareness, they need to try and be alert to flankers and other mechs trying to get close to them undetected. They still need to learn to read the enemy team, and try and find positions that they can be protected (typically near their team, I would hope). They still even benefit from knowing how to play their armor defensively and trying to roll damage around (because, hopefully, they are with there team, and not alone). Some of these skills may not need to be as sharp as others, but they are still needed.

Basically, easy to use. Hard to master.

2. You are completely correct with that being the possible new player introduction. However, I would state that one of the skills that a player needs to develop is to be able to tell where cover is, breaking line of sight as well as being able to determine where the attack is coming from. AMS would help, if more people would use it in the lower tiers. A team staying near each other with an AMS on every mech is not going to have much problems with any LRMs. But then again... They would have to know this AND stay together. Two things new players wont know, and that PUGs (QP) players probably don't do...

3. Assaults are hard to play. They are slow and, once they commit to an action, they have to continue following through with it. Most PUGs will wander off once they take the slightest bit of damage, leaving assaults to wallow on their own and die. This is also why you probably see a lot of new players picking up Assaults (for health and "it's big") and then cramming LRMs into them. They feel they are doing great sometimes, but don't realize that they aren't always being a help to the team overall. They also pile on the LRMs because, once committed to an action... They don't know when to commit (who does in a PUG group most times), so they develop a fear of committing, so they hide in the back with LRMs where they no longer need to commit and die...


Besides some points in topic 1, I think you've described a lot of the issues with LRMs in the game at lower tiers. Some of it only comes with experience and play. Others is just poor information that some people will refuse to look up or just "know it's this way" even if they are wrong.



Your forum date says you've been here (at least on the forums) since 2011 (if I'm reading it right). But this date has been known to be wrong, which is why I asked.

I only asked how long you've played for recollection sake on previous "versions" of MW:O. So I would know if you experienced the game before modules and stuff. If you've only been here for 10 months, that would explain why you wouldn't recall a time before ECM and Radar Dep. The game worked fine back then without those pieces of gear. Since their release, it's been kinda a middle ground. It's improved in some ways, not in others. Anyway...


I would ask, as much as I have also seen people mis-read the effectiveness of LRMs and demanding of locks of their team for them... I am not that kind of LRM user. LRMs are more effective the closer to minimum range that they can get. They also benefit more from having direct line of sight than indirect (for the most part). I ask people to hold locks if they can, but I also understand that a teammate still alive is better for me than a teammate who died for "me to use a lock". I always try to tell people to break locks if they have to, to survive. You are no good to me dead. So, I would applaud you for surviving, but I would get angry (with or without LRMs) if I saw a teammate intentionally never getting locks. (And yes, I've seen and had teammates intentionally drop locks as soon as they saw the missile icon, because "They don't want to help an LRM useless no skill player". I can recall one such match where I jokingly said "Don't make me get my own locks. You won't like me if I have to get my own locks. " (Face was to promote that I was joking.) Needless to say, the team actually took me up on the challenge, and my whole team refused to get any locks and would drop them as soon as they got them (not joking). Somehow in that match, I out performed everyone else on my team, getting my own locks (which I intended to do anyway for the most part)...) Getting locks helps the team, not just the LRM users.

I believe I've mentioned it before (and I could be thinking of a different thread), but new accounts get an accelerated boost to their PSR gain and loss. Once you are past that boosting stage of the new account, it becomes a lot harder to change tiers. When PSR first came out, both this account and my own alt (a stock mech only account for some private events (Lt Kataren if you wished to know)) were each started out at T4. My main account quickly went to T3 and then bounced a little between T3 and T4 before I 'settled'. Now I'm T3 (Edit) almost to T3 T2 (Edit, wrong T number. Sentence got jumbled). My Alt account though is still T4, but is also almost T3 and has used only stock mechs, unaltered from their time of purchase.

Anyway, now that I've rambled off the topic (sorry), I do agree that LRMs do seem to be more common to the lower tiers. And I do agree that LRMs should be more viable in all tiers of play. But, the issue becomes how does one balance the system so it's effective in T1 without being completely decimating in T5? T5 users don't even typically have Radar Dep, and they might have AMS or ECM on their mechs... Maybe. But, if you place more counters to LRMs, than they become less effective all around. Buff them up, and they become more effective in T1, but even more effective in T5. LRMs have always seemed to have a hard point to balance in this game...


My problem with ECM isn't what it's described to do... it's what it does in this game. By the backing of what it's suppose to do in lore, it's doing too much in this game. Then, ECM also creates a double penalty on any long range locking weapons (LRMs almost exclusively). Here is what ECM does in the game (just for review):
- Prevents locks on the mech(s) at range. (Can be counted with NARC. UAVs and TAG can permit locks and counters this ability completely.)
- Slows down missile locks, making it take longer to gain the locks. (This can be counted with NARC. UAVs and TAG do nothing against this (for the most part).)

What this means is that, even if I can get a target lock on an ECMed mech, if I have a locking weapon (LRMs) it will still take about twice as long to get a lock. Often, by this point, the lock may be lost again (from Radar Dep even), resetting the whole counter.

If ECM did one ability or the other, I think it would be far more fair. Especially considering it's a piece of gear that only weights 1.5 tons (and technically requires "no skill" to use). What I would want is for ECM to create a delay in the ability to acquire a lock, but if said ECMed unit stands out in the open, eventually a lock could be obtained. This would encourage ECM for more stealth, and not LRM protection, but require some measure of skill to use and penalize people who want to treat it like it's a cloaking device.

For the record, ECM isn't suppose to do half that stuff in lore. It should disable all LRM enhancements (Artemis, Narc, TAG, etc), but otherwise leave the rest of LRMs alone. (Not easy to translate from TT to MW:O styled games.) Then, it should also be able to create ghost targets (no idea how this could work in this game), as well as mask the signature of the mech (AKA: no damage display, no weapons display, and no mech type/designation. Not even a target designation to it.). It also, in lore, disables communications within it's influence (which you can't enforce in this game with external comms being used) as well as C3 computers (so disable target info sharing) and BAPs (but the let you know you are being jammed, which is now base in this game).

For the record, I'm not alone on my feelings here about ECM. Doesn't mean I want ECM to become useless or removed though. Just, needs some adjustments. And even I don't know what exactly it might need. I know I'd love to experiment and see how certain changes might have on the game...


You are very probably correct about the new Skill Trees. However, I like to take a "wait and see" approach. It probably will be there, but I just advise that it might not be either. We just don't know until it comes out live in the game. And that doesn't even mean it might not be removed later (which I also doubt).



Shutting down last I knew counters NARC beacons. However, I could be wrong as I've never tested this personally. The next best thing to do if you are NARCed is to find cover that is tall enough (twice the height of your mech) or hug a nearby ECM ally.
Besides that, AMS. It works no matter what!
...
As long as it has ammo and remains functioning...

You'd be surprised at how many missiles a single AMS can shoot down, given the correct situation. Even then, it's better than nothing and it will reduce incoming LRM damage at least.


Personally, I don't recommend shutting down for the most part. It just leaves you immobile and easy to hit. If you do shut down, do so behind cover, not out in the open. If you don't have cover, you are a target for every weapon in the game, even unlocked and unguided LRMs.



Shutting down does remove the missile (and target) locks on you. However, realize that LRMs will continue to home in on the last spot the lock was in. This often results in LRMs still hitting you, but does mean additional LRMs would have to be blind fired without a lock. Jumping into the air high and then shutting down is a good way to avoid LRMs, if you even can. It will damage your legs a bit, but the LRMs will home in on your aerial location you where at when you shut down. Thus, making them fly over your head.

As for TAG, it does not counter the effects of being shut down. However, a stationary target can still be hit with LRMs, as LRMs can be fired without a lock.

I installed the game in 2011 but never actually opened it up or played it until I believe it was around February of last year. Maybe that is where the date comes from.

I am sorry if you misunderstood my point but I am in no way advocating nor do I believe that they need to become more effective in tier 1 play. The only way I would ever want to see them buffed is if they required more skill to use. Perhaps by making c3 or whatever equivalent there is being optional on mechs and limited target sharing information or at the very least the inability to lock onto a friendlies target but get information only. In another thread I believe I also agreed with others that I would like the arc to be decreased with the missile speed getting an increase and perhaps then more damage. In summary I want less fire and forget and for them to be ineffective at any tier to be used by someone hiding behind cover.

Some anecdotal thoughts about my experience and attempts to relate to yours... My Evil Goof profile has exactly one radar derp module. By the time I created it to be an account I could be a clanner in, lrms where not an issue. Yes am aware of the accelerated weight of what I believe is the first five matches. Currently a new profile starts in the very top of tier 5. After five matches Evil was placed in the bottom quarter of tier 3. Oh to be fair and honest my first two mechs for that profile (that I bought with cbills anyway) was the Shadow Cat and Hellbringer which are both ecm capable mechs (as well as being two I really like) but have spent the majority of time in Ebon's, Hunchie IIC, and Jenner IIC's. Currently over my accounts I have two Orion IIC's that are long range missile carriers as well as Catapult C1, Battlemaster 1S, and MadDog Prime and B (I think). Oh I also have a second Catapult A1 that I will from time to time do the trolling 6 lrm 5 build on. All of these builds save the troll build have backup or how I use them, finishing weapons. I mention this only in regards to answer the unasked question if I have actually used lrms. Now, please don't take this the wrong way and hear me out. Why has it taken you as an experienced player, that long to get out of tier 4 or 3? If it is due to you using lrms as your primary weapon on most of your game time that would make sense to me in some ways and others it wouldn't. My personal experience was that only tier 2 has been a slow climb. My personal experience aslo is that if you get 500-600 damage in a loss your psr gets an equal and over that in a loss you get a small gain. Piloting most lrm mechs it is very easy to reach this thresholds in a loss, especially in tier 4 and 3. My win/loss record on my main account is actually bad. Especially lately however I get more games than not where I put out a minimum of 450 damage and a couple other tricks like throwing up a uav to get a decent score. Also especially since you seem to be an advocate of playing lrms in a manner that I completely am behind. It's the way I play em and experienced and better pilots than me told me or rather showed me the way. So you obviously don't have to answer but I am curious as to what is holding you back. Again please I do not think that what I am saying in any way makes a difference in any of the excellent or valid points you have made and I am a fan of your particular style of lurming and what you seem to be advocating playstyle wise (you do however lose me on ECM). In OldBob's original video, he is doing the same as what you are talking about. I actually dropped with and against him the day after I commented on this thread and he is solidly a nice guy with some really great videos on his channel.

So in short, my opinion is that for lrms to be improved and their effectiveness increased, an element of further skill somehow needs to be applied to them. My reasoning is that if it isn't done this way, they may or may not be effective in upper tiers, but certainly would become too powerful in the lower ones which may ruin the game for some players especially if they are new.

I would like to add that I do appreciate your time and effort in not only responding to myself but others as well, especially considering how long some of the replies have been. While I may disagree with you in some aspects I certainly have come to respect you and your opinion, so thank you.

[MacClearly]

Tesunie, on 09 January 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

Question: What is wrong with them using those builds?

This is a game. It's designed to have fun with. If they are having fun using those builds... I don't honestly see the issue here. In theory, if they perform poorly too often, than they will drop in PSR levels. Eventually, you (as T1) would no longer have to worry about them, as they will play themselves out of your tier. Unless... Of course they perform reasonably well anyway and stay in that tier on their own...

The Griffin I could see a case for although it isn't something I would do and I think the either the Hunchie 4J or the Kintaro would make more sense.

The Oxide however is a different story. You are taking one of the best flanking, striking, hunting, harassing, mechs out of the picture and loading it up with the weapon that is currently the worst in the game. It would be like putting a ford engine in a Ferrari....sure you could make it work, but boy is it ever a $tupid thing to do.