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Lrm Hate Wtf?


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#141 Tesunie

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 11:10 AM

View PostSteel Raven, on 29 December 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

I doubt we will ever get to a 'balance' that everyone agrees with...


One of the biggest problems with asymmetrical balance (what we have in this game) is it's going to be highly opinion based. What one person feels is balanced, another one may think otherwise.

#142 SkeletonSteff

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 03:24 PM

I just want to give my in insignificant 2 cents to this thread. I have been fascinated with artillery warfare for a time know (played Warzone 2100 for years) and have been fascinated by the Catapult (the mech) since I know about Battletech. So I started as a LRM boater when I discovered this game about a year ago. At first I was put of by the hate, than I took it as a sport. Than I actually started to look into it and learned how to be a good LRM pilot: read the team, judge the quality of a look of a team mate, consider the cover the enemy is under, adjusted my catapult build. I have worked my way from Tier 5 to 3 in just under a year. That might not be much for some people out there, but I am proud of this journey.

In essence, I do not think LRMs are easier to use than df weapons. Yes, the actual firing is not hard, but you have to consider a lot more factors than brawlers. Not saying brawling is easy, we all have a place in this game.

Thank you, Bob, for the video. I hope a lot more people view it, stop hating and play as a team.

#143 L1f3H4ck

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 09:20 AM

This topic again. I'm an LRM enthusiast myself, and I've recieved a lot of flak for it, especially in recent years. The reason people hate LRMs is twofold: First, a lot of players are bad at using them. Second, getting killed by LRMs sucks big time.

I have to dispell a couple of myths here though. Hanging back, hoping for locks and staying out of engagements is not how it's done. Nothing is stopping an LRM boat to share some damage. You can and should poke out, get your own locks if you can (you carry advanced target decay, your mates don't) and distract the enemy. It sure is nice to get a good lock from a team mate, but not if it means them risking their hide for it while you're chilling two mointain ranges away. Get in there!

That's especially true when you use an assault mech. Wow, I can totally hear those aneurysms pop over this one. I love taking out a 4 LRM10+A Battlemaster. But I know I used up an assault slot. I have no business hanging back behind the group. No, I'm right there with my lance, supporting the push without hitting my buddies in the back, shuffling in to soak up some damage.

This is what haters don't understand imho. LRMs allow you to add damage when it's too crowded for LoS weapons. I see them compared to lasers and dakka a lot, and on paper, they're worse. Actually, another thing I hear a lot, is that LRM users build up these fictional cases which don't apply to an actual battle. Well, not being able to fire your dakka vomit of death on account of your homies standing in the way is a real thing I see every match. That's where indirect fire becomes more valuable.

Another thing LRM boaters need to understand is that they need to move. Always. There's always a better position, a better angle from which to rain on the enemy. You can absolutely pin an enemy group in a spot where hiding from your missiles means exposure to your groups guns. Getting at them from different angles is super easy using LRMs, if you've figured out positioning.

They are a misunderstood weapons system with a learning curve attached. I guess thats why ppl cant decide whether their a bad newb weapon or op.



#144 BigScwerl

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 05:20 PM

View PostBlueFlames, on 23 November 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:


On the other hand, if you're going to sit a million miles away and demand that other players adapt their playstyle to yours, so that you can be disengaged from the fight, hoping that your missiles will put up some impressive numbers for you, then you're going to draw hate.


I love LRMs they work great for softening up some armor early on, but I will rarely/never carry more than a ton of armor. 2 clan LRM 5s and 180 missles, 3 tons of business for what should be 150 pts of damage, if you're firing on line of sight. I would love to see a coordinated unit with Narcs and Tags and Lights work in tandem with some serious LRM boats. I dont see that.... I see the same thing that many of you in the forum have already commented on: Assault builds hanging out in the back of the map and not sharing armor. That gets me irritated also.

On the other side of the coin, I'm really disappointed at how weak ECM cover and radar deprivation are. On a map like Polar Highlands, where there is no cover, I am really tired of losing all my armor to some tween fart biscuit in a stalker using LRMs as a crutch. Try aiming you no-talent-waste-of-armor.

#145 InspectorG

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 07:08 PM

View PostBellum Dominum, on 28 December 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

Oh and radar derp is HIGHLY over rated.




Its valuable not because it counters LRMs. it breaks locks faster, allowing you to move without a red lock box giving you away behind cover for a few seconds. Those few seconds, in high level play, are valuable.

#146 Tesunie

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 07:16 PM

View PostInspectorG, on 02 January 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:


Its valuable not because it counters LRMs. it breaks locks faster, allowing you to move without a red lock box giving you away behind cover for a few seconds. Those few seconds, in high level play, are valuable.


It's abilities against LRMs are just a side affect, but a really good one against LRMs though. (Just to chime in a bit.)

#147 General Solo

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 11:04 PM

I disagree that their is no cover on polar highlands that can break LOS, stopping people getting a lock
If your narced you are probably right
But that's one map outta how many

#148 Steel Raven

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 12:21 AM

The recent trend of LRM assaults hiding behind a hill, shooting into the dirt has soured my option a little. I people who know how to Lurm need to start holding more classes for the LRM challenged because the watching the last Assault on our team run away from battle is getting a little too common during the last days of this event.

#149 Tesunie

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 08:59 PM

View PostOZHomerOZ, on 02 January 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

I disagree that their is no cover on polar highlands that can break LOS, stopping people getting a lock
If your narced you are probably right
But that's one map outta how many


On maps that people claim there is no LRM cover, I always seem to find some. Those same said maps that you "can't get into a brawl with the enemy", I still find ways to get close. The thing is, you just need to know how to do it and where to go.

I find it's okay to have a few maps that have more sparse cover, and some others that have lots of cover. Not every map should be like HPG or Crimson Straights where you have a nice anti-LRM umbrella to hide under. Then again, not every map should be as open as Alpine and Polar. We really need to maintain a reasonable mix of map types.

#150 General Solo

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 12:12 AM

I agree

#151 Appogee

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 12:57 AM

There's a reason you don't see Tier 1 players using LRMs.

There's also a reason Tier 1 players dislike seeing 100t LRM boats on their team.

It's the same reason Tier 1 players don't mind if the enemy team bring as many LRMs as they want.

#152 MacClearly

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:11 AM

View PostTesunie, on 28 December 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:


Functional has nothing to do with if it's OP or not. If this is your indication on if something is fucntional:
Long Tom: Was considered OP because it could kill entire teams (if they were not careful). Was considered so OP that many players stopped dropping on a world if it had LT on it. It was fully functional.
Seismic Sensor: Was considered OP upon it's first introduction, when it would provide early warning for anyone getting close to the equipped mech, even when at a full run. Was considered too powerful for as module, as it was a "must have" module, recommended by everyone over any other module. It was fully functional. (Has been adjusted to a better state now, and people made the same exact argument you have before it was adjusted.)
ECM: Before there was any other counter besides ECM, it was considered OP. This piece of equipment rendered a user invulnerable to any lock on missiles, being SSRMs and LRMs. Only exception was if it was a SSRM, ECM equipped mech itself. It was functional. (Was latter adjusted several times, and more counters were placed into the game, such as BAP, (ER)PPCs, UAVs, NARC and TAG.) Note: This alone made the Raven from an "it's a good mech" to "you can't kill them". Especially considering that light mechs had "Lag Shields" back then...

And, to quote someone from another thread:


Notice there is no alternative options presented? Notice how no other module is suggested as a "good thing to have"?

This post isn't the reason I feel it's OP, but it does indicate that its "the best choice" of all the modules. When something becomes "the best choice" out of all other options, hands down, than it probably is OP and needs adjustments.

Functional also doesn't mean it is or is not OP. Just because something is functional doesn't mean it can't be OP or UP. LRMs are functional, but they keep going into a flux of being too powerful to not strong enough.


As for the second half of your argument, you now wish to mention skill as a factor of why this module should remain in the game (and hinting at it being unchanged). You seem to state that LRMs should "remain a bad weapon" because "it doesn't require any skill". Of this, I'd have to disagree. LRMs do require some skill to use well and effectively. Just, the skill set needed for this is different than that of other weapons. You can basically read more about my opinion here, here, here and also here.

Now, I will state that I've not ask for the removal of any modules (even if I never really liked their inclusion in the game, for "reasons"), but only stated that some of them possibly could use adjustment and refinement. One such refinement concept I can think of for Radar Dep is to have it reduce decay by the same exact amount that Adv Target Decay improves decay, making them literally balance each other out. This would have resulted in a slight delay on breaking a lock, but still rather fast compared to not having it. Then it's a balance of choices. I also would either give everyone the "chirp and flash" effects for breaking a lock and remove it from the module (I've only ever noticed it with the module equipped) or remove that from the game completely.

Of course, these concepts are kinda irrelevant because all modules seem to be getting removed (except for consumable modules). I personally feel that this probably will be a good thing, but until it happens, I can not say. I will comment here that I feel the game played better and felt more fun before any modules where placed into the game. But that also could be "the past was always better" feelings getting to me.




I have only ever noticed the light flash and sound chirp when I've had Radar Dep equipped and I broke a lock. I use to wonder what people where talking about when they mentioned this before I acquired the module. (That was some time ago, for the record.)

So, unless they changed something in the last few patches and I wasn't aware of it, you only get a flash of light and a chirp sound when you brake a lock with Radar Dep on your mech. Without it, you get no such indicator.


For clarity Evil Goof and I are the same person.

So radar derp allows people to break locks as soon as they make it to cover. Which is what it is supposed to do. If it didn't, lrms would become way over powered. This is because one lock would make a mech helpless in a lot of situations and would make a lot of cover useless. You would be forced to find tall enough cover to negate the arc of the missles.

You are in the minority of the player base that would like to see a non los and for the most part, lower skilled weapon become that powerful. There is a reason that lrms in most situations should be the least effective weapon. One of the key ones besides being able to inflict damage behind cover, is that no other weapon makes use of information sharing such as friendly players actually being able to provide locks for lrm pilots from distance. If you were to remove the effectiveness of radar derp, there would be a great increase in the number of lrm boats and perhaps scouts and aiming would become a thing of the past. No one wants that.

Also, radar derp is not being removed. It is included in the skill tree. Of coarse any mech not running ECM will use it, not just against lrm boaters, but it makes sense overall when being able to reposition.

#153 Roughneck45

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:19 AM

View PostMacClearly, on 07 January 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

Also, radar derp is not being removed. It is included in the skill tree. Of coarse any mech not running ECM will use it, not just against lrm boaters, but it makes sense overall when being able to reposition.

You know this for a fact?

Removal of radar dep would not increase the amount of LRM boats taken. They were considered bad before radar dep existed too.

The better your opponent is the worse LRM's become.

Edited by Roughneck45, 07 January 2017 - 07:19 AM.


#154 actionking

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:22 AM

View PostAppogee, on 05 January 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

There's a reason you don't see Tier 1 players using LRMs.

There's also a reason Tier 1 players dislike seeing 100t LRM boats on their team.

It's the same reason Tier 1 players don't mind if the enemy team bring as many LRMs as they want.



Nothing more to say than this !

#155 Appogee

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:43 AM

I was in a FP match today.

In the first wave, the sky was dark with enemy LRMs. I would estimate that 8 of the 12 Mechs in the enemy's team were LRM boats, many of them Assaults. For the first time in a long time, I thought to myself "hell, that many LRMs is going to cost us this match".

But my PUG team did some peeky-pokey sniping at them - me with AC2, others with PPC or Gauss. We took a few LRM hits when we were exposed, but the great majority of LRMs lobbed our way hit our cover or passed harmless behind us.

When we had the enemy down to about 4 LRM boats, we pushed and killed them, face tanking the LRMs as we went.

The first wave ended with us about 12-4 in front. The match finished about 48-22 in our favour. The enemy had wasted so much tonnage on LRM Assaults that it didn't leave them much else to work with for the rest of the match.

LRMs just aren't a good choice for FP. Nor should any indirect fire guided weapon be, in my view. If they were, they'd lessen the need for skill in the game.

#156 McHoshi

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:50 AM

If you wanna lurm you´ll have to do it the right and only way.



#157 MacClearly

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:28 PM

View PostRoughneck45, on 07 January 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

You know this for a fact?

Removal of radar dep would not increase the amount of LRM boats taken. They were considered bad before radar dep existed too.

The better your opponent is the worse LRM's become.

Yes radar derp is going to be included. It has been pointed out as being included in the branches of the skill tree.

#158 Burning2nd

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 01:52 AM

Lets get a few things strait you bunch of Civco rejects...

#1 because your got a few tubes... doesn't make you a LRM BOAT
#2 Think of it as artillery, not Missles
#3 To Be a Real OEM missile boat, you need to be carrying nothing BUT LRMS
#4 not everyone can run this...

LRms back in the day use to be something to be feared.. Now its nothing more then looking for the person who puts them self in thee open for the longest amount of time,

#159 Tesunie

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 04:38 PM

View PostMacClearly, on 07 January 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:


For clarity Evil Goof and I are the same person.

So radar derp allows people to break locks as soon as they make it to cover. Which is what it is supposed to do. If it didn't, lrms would become way over powered. This is because one lock would make a mech helpless in a lot of situations and would make a lot of cover useless. You would be forced to find tall enough cover to negate the arc of the missles.

You are in the minority of the player base that would like to see a non los and for the most part, lower skilled weapon become that powerful. There is a reason that lrms in most situations should be the least effective weapon. One of the key ones besides being able to inflict damage behind cover, is that no other weapon makes use of information sharing such as friendly players actually being able to provide locks for lrm pilots from distance. If you were to remove the effectiveness of radar derp, there would be a great increase in the number of lrm boats and perhaps scouts and aiming would become a thing of the past. No one wants that.

Also, radar derp is not being removed. It is included in the skill tree. Of coarse any mech not running ECM will use it, not just against lrm boaters, but it makes sense overall when being able to reposition.


May I ask (and forgive me if you've already answered this), how long have you been playing this game?

I ask because, long ago in a galaxy far away, we use to not even have ECM. LRMs where very much still in the game, and where not deemed over powered (on the average, with a couple faux pas mishaps exceptions). This was long before any module was even considered. I remember those days, and LRMs remained relatively effective, but didn't rule the battlefield. Direct fire weapons were still considered better as an average rule.

So, your theory that LRMs would become over powered I believe is a misplaced belief. They've been around a lot longer than many of their new counter systems (besides maybe AMS). Only a few times where LRMs considered too powerful, and each time it was normally because of a bug. (Like when Artemis was first added into the game, LRMs went in a straight up, over and done on the head of mechs path. Many mechs died from LRM hits to their head component... Now that was OP LRMs! And a complete and unintentional bug in the system.)


For the record, I actually don't want LRMs to become "all supreme overlord" of weapons. They should be a "weaker" (relatively speaking) weapon when compared to direct fire weapons. They should be weaker (in some sense) because they are a utility weapon. This utility and flexibility in their function should be their strength, leaving them powerful in their role (indirect fire, "terror tactics" providing bells and whistle warnings, pushing people into cover, forcing the enemy to move, innate focused fire, etc). This strength should be countered by some weakness (minimum range, spread, requirement for locks (this possibly could use some work though), etc).

In any LRM debate, I will never hide the LRMs weaknesses. However, I also am not going to sweep their strengths under the rug either. They have their uses, and in those uses and situations, they can be very good to have. I will never imply that LRMs are the greatest weapon, but neither am I going to say it's the worst weapon in the game either. They have their place and the run in the middle of the weapon rankings, depending upon what one is seeking to do.


To be honest, our target sharing is a little "off". We essentially have mini C3 computers in our mechs for free, which is why LRMs seem to function as they do. In lore (which I know doesn't always translate to a live action computer game, and I wont even try to on this one), LRMs could shoot at targets indirectly. How this was done though wasn't by computer target sharing, but instead by someone relaying comm positions from the front line to their back line support mechs. Then, the LRM mechs would shoot their LRMs blindly at the positions indicated and hope they hit.

Also, our LRMs don't have standard munitions, but actually have the advanced Homing LRM type ammunition. This is what lets our LRMs "home in" on targets that we have locked, and what would work with TAG and NARC systems. There are also other ammunition types we don't have in the game, such as Thunder LRMs which would deploy mines if they hit the ground.

As I said, LRMs are suppose to be a utility weapon. In this game they have some of their utility built in, but other pieces are lacking. However, don't even get me started on ECM, which does far more than it should, even with the need to change things to match a real time video game "simulator". Then we have Radar Dep on top of that (currently), AMS Overload, etc.


Of course, some of this may become moot once the new skill system comes in. We don't know exactly for sure what will be in the new skill system, and what will not make it. PGI may even change their minds on how things will work before it's released. We just don't know. Which is why I kinda speak on the forums like the new system is "coming" but make points about how the current system works. I can't talk about something I don't know about yet.

#160 oldradagast

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 05:52 PM

The hate towards LRM's comes from two completely contradictory viewpoints held by too many people in the game:

1) LRM's are "noob-tube" and "no-skill" weapons that give you easy wins compared to the massive challenging of boating a pile of Gauss rifles, PPC's, and lasers and point and clicking.

2) LRM's are, at the same time as the above, totally useless in any real game against any real opponent, and if you put them on your mech, you must automatically remove all non-LRM weapons and stand 999 meters away from the fight because it is completely impossible to use LRM's in a sane fashion that helps the team. Despite them being easy to use "noob tube" weapons.

So, yeah. Look around the forums and you'll see people raging about both and confusing poor player skill in general with LRM's "sucking" or being overpowered.

The reality is that they are a relatively poor weapon, yes, but they are not "useless" and most of the problems seen in their use are caused by other things, such as people thinking that boating infinite LRM's and lacking direct fire weapons is a good idea, or people thinking that LRM's "auto-hit" - they don't - or that they are meant to be used about 900m away from the fight. That being said, they are still a slow-traveling projectile with a lot of damage scatter and numerous counters (ECM, Radar Derp, etc.) Still, they can be used as a way to shake enemies out of an area or to give a direct fire mech something useful to do as it slowly enters position.

Edited by oldradagast, 08 January 2017 - 05:53 PM.






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