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Lrm Hate Wtf?


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#21 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 11:52 PM

View PostTarm Wallunga, on 24 November 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

My thoughts on LRM builds - from some who has played this game off and on since open beta and loves a good LRM build.

1.) LRMS are an effective combat multiplier when used properly - the LRM boat pilot has to use them properly as well as the rest of the team in order to get the full (and literal) bang for the buck.

2.) Any self respecting LRM pilot will not only have plenty of LRM and rounds, but also a competent back up weapon(s). For instance, a few launchers and then as many lasers you can carry. Ideally, more than three, I think. On one of my accounts I have the loyalty Stalker. 4xlrm5 backed up by six med lasers. Nothing ruins the day of someone hunting the LRM boat down than receiving all six lasers to the face.

3.) one poster hit on another fact that I want to reiterate (and I think it was the OP). A constant barrage of LRMS - even lrm5 - can put you psychologically on the defensive. Walking through a hailstorm of missiles is no easy feat, especially if you want to keep your armor for the eventual brawl. On that note I would also strongly recommend that LRM pilots learn how to chain fire their missiles. This helps with heat management, as well as keeping the overall missile load in something closer to a constant stream. If nothing else, the continual volleys of missiles will slowly eat up the opponents AMS, which only makes further LRM volleys that much more efffective.

4.) Lastly, I wish people would pick up on a couple of very important points about LRM builds. First, they don't do jack beyond 1000m, and the less flight time they have the more likely they are to hit the target, even if target lock is dropped mid-flight (I don't have hard numbers on that so feel free to support or argue this point). Also, inner sphere missiles need 180m before they arm, which means they're useless at such short range. Thus, a good reason to load as many lasers as you can - and then chain fire those too to manage heat and have a chance to re-aim for each shot to be effective. After all, if you're gonna fire something, you might as well try to hit the soft spots. Finally, some maps are conducive to LRM use while others are not. So areas of many maps almost intrinsically forbid the use of missiles because there is so much overhead cover, or steep hills or other obstacles. If you're wasting missiles on the cliff face you're using for cover on Canyon, you're not doing a damn bit of good for your team.

If LRM pilots used these tips they will find a dramatic increase in their effectiveness. There is little better than a couple of good LRM Boat pilots providing excellent indirect fire support for the brawlers over the course of the game. It's a team effort, and regardless of your play style, you need to contribute. No contribution - effective contribution, that is - means your team fails and you lose, which means PSR drops, fewer C-Bills, and then people don't like the game AND you get to listen to people hate on and flame the LRM boat.


That loyalty Stalker build is no longer valid.

#22 Mech Nuggets

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 12:08 AM

One of my Teammates was teamkilled for bringing an LRM Atlas recently....
I was teamkilled not long ago for playing a sniper shadowcat on faction warfare...

Different Teamkillers, different, well known Units!

how's that for teamwork?

#23 Kmieciu

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 12:32 AM

View PostOldbob10025, on 23 November 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

I fear the group that knows what they are doing in a two man LRM/Scout team...

Once you learn how to properly play MWO, you won't fear LRMs at all.
I've met a two man spotter-LRM boat just yesterday in group queue. Raven-3L was NARCing and a Catapult had 2xLRM20+A and nothing more. I was in a Kitfox and my team-mate was in a Timberwolf. I kept him under ECM while the Raven hit him with multiple NARCs. He was unable to hit me, because I used my teammate as a shield. My ECM was cancelling his NARCS. The LRM boat was unable to get a lock. The Raven died doing <50 damage and the Catapult followed soon after.

It's not that they were bad players. They did everything that was possible to beat us. It's the fact that LRM/Scout tactic can be easily and reliably countered and rendered useless. That is why it is not being used in any tournament. Sometimes it is used by top teams in group queue to troll the lesser teams. It is supposed to send a message. It's like killing the enemy team only with knives in Counter Strike.


In solo queue, the most effective strategy is poking from cover. You expose yourself for 1-2 seconds, fire, torso twist and get back into cover. Since everybody is running radar derp, holding locks is not possible. You lose lock the moment you torso twist. If you don't torso twist, you will get cored by enemy direct fire builds.

Due to low missile velocity (160 m/s) it takes about 4 seconds to lock and hit the target with LRMs @ 450 meter range. During that time, you can fire an accurate C-LPL+ERML laservomit and still have time to get into cover. And mechs like the 2C-LPL 3ERML Hellbringer are almost immune to LRMs.

Edited by Kmieciu, 25 November 2016 - 12:51 AM.


#24 Lily from animove

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 02:05 AM

View PostEvil Goof, on 24 November 2016 - 11:06 PM, said:

No Bob this is a real account. I would almost think you were trying to infer something but no matter as it doesn't validate your point or invalidate mine.

As far as the hate, I am laughing at your focus on Call of Duty while white knighting against the hate for lurms... Kinda ironic.

As well you talk about being a good team mate. Again bravo for your play in the video. This was a great example of how to play a lurm boat without pissing people off and while being a member of the team. If anything in your promotion of lurms, I hope that your advocation of this style of play catches on more.

Where the frustration and salt comes from however is this particular weapons systems being easy to abuse. Such as lrm King Crabs, and Atlas'... as well as those who lurm from the very back and freak out if you don't rush and save them from an astute light pilot. Are people able to run troll builds and really stupid lrm builds? Yes they certainly are... No doubt about it they are, and people do.

Perhaps there is multiple approaches for this issue. One being yours, were you seem to be advocating being part of the team and playing smart. The other approach that is and will be done by the community, is calling out people who do stupid things....like an lrm Atlas. Those who continue, without any regard for the community that they play in and with, will do so without help and with some salt thrown their way from time to time. As much as lrm's aren't going away, the disdain for players abusing them is also not going away and there is nothing you can do to stop that...

Finally an addendum, to explain some of the hate...
Polar Highlands. PGI in some ways have actually done some pretty strong work in balancing the game. Not perfect, but certainly not that bad. However, one oversight is to simply sort out players by tier and tonnage. This isn't horrible, but when you land on Polar in a team full of brawling mechs, and the other side has a narcing Raven and six lrm boats....
To be completely slaughtered without the slightest chance of success is infuriating. It really takes away from the game. That there is not a mechanic to limit two or maximum three lrm boats and to ensure that they don't all end up on one team is really short sighted. The other way applies too, as I have swung around on Canyon while in a brawling team and did terrible, terrible things to lrm boats.

In short, this is a balance question that seems to not come up (that I have heard anyway). On top of this they buffed lrm's in the last patch...


lakc of tactics if you realise the enemy has a lot of lrm boats, rush them. they will be undergunned against your team, but trying to hide on a open map form lrm's is hardly working if you can't find out and kill the scout.

#25 Oldbob10025

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 07:04 AM

View PostMech Nuggets, on 25 November 2016 - 12:08 AM, said:

One of my Teammates was teamkilled for bringing an LRM Atlas recently....
I was teamkilled not long ago for playing a sniper shadowcat on faction warfare...

Different Teamkillers, different, well known Units!

how's that for teamwork?


As I record all my games that would have gone strait to support and reported. Team killed for bringing a Atlas with LRMS is a bit much hate and did you win or lose the match?

#26 Tordin

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 09:06 AM

This is one of the best gifts you can send to the lurm haters... Add twice the amount for extra suffering and crying Posted Image

Posted Image

#27 M T

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 10:04 AM

It's a bit like... Why choose Assault game mode and finish the game in a few minutes. Why play the game at all?

So the same goes for lurms, why play the game if you dont intend to shoot and aim like most games, and go easy mode?


;)

#28 VorpalAnvil

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 10:43 AM

Lrm's are inferior to DF weapons in literally every sense. This is not an opinion, but a fact. But for some reason this community has it's own Flat Earth Society when it comes to this topic.


Edited by VorpalAnvil, 25 November 2016 - 10:44 AM.


#29 Blind Baku

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 11:08 AM

View PostVorpalAnvil, on 25 November 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

Lrm's are inferior to DF weapons in literally every sense. This is not an opinion, but a fact. But for some reason this community has it's own Flat Earth Society when it comes to this topic.




No negatives for using JJ's/Masc. You can't aim while in either of those conditions.

Maybe not the best example but there are a handful of mechs that end up LRMing acceptably well because of that, at least in lowly Pugland.

Also not everyone is as good a shot as the Col. That man is a friggin' mechwarrior wizard. And the LRM team went where there is 0 cover!? What? I need to rewatch with better audio, but who's tactical call was that!?

#30 VorpalAnvil

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 11:25 AM

View PostBlind Baku, on 25 November 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:


Also not everyone is as good a shot as the Col.

Both sides are comprised mainly of high skill and top tier MRBC players. Oneil is hardly the only guy on either team who can aim.

View PostBlind Baku, on 25 November 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:


And the LRM team went where there is 0 cover!? What? I need to rewatch with better audio, but who's tactical call was that!?

The mech builds and strats for the LRM team were designed by Envisage, a guy who showed up here about a year ago and claimed that the comp community didn't use lurms because they didn't know how to use them properly and that lurms had a place in high tier meta. These LRM vs Meta matches were the response and the result was a surprise only to Envisage and people like OP who take lurming seriously.

#31 BlueFlames

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 01:20 PM

http://mwomercs.com/...h-lrms-vs-meta/

That is the thread that detailed the conditions and outcomes of those LRM v. Meta matches.

To summarize the results, though, the LRM team got five kills across four matches and lost every time. The bonus match was where the LRM team had its best performance, when they weren't allowed to use LRMs, and the meta team was forced to use them. The meta team won that match because they used their LRM mechs as distractions/meat shields, while their SRM and laser mechs got in to deal real damage. LRMs lost on close range maps; they lost on mid-range maps, and they lost on long range maps.

I may add my thoughts on specifically what makes LRMs inferior, even when they aren't being hard-countered (spoiler - it's damage spread), but right now, I need to go eat.

#32 Mech Nuggets

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 02:02 PM

View PostOldbob10025, on 25 November 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:


As I record all my games that would have gone strait to support and reported. Team killed for bringing a Atlas with LRMS is a bit much hate and did you win or lose the match?

unfortunately my video card is not the best. so when I turn on video capture, my framerates drop to an unplayable low. Gotta wait until I upgrade my system to be able to that ... needless to say, I would have sent that straight to support as well.
Anyhow, we still won the match my LRM-Atlas buddy was killed in but we lost the one I got killed for playing sniper from the flanks... I was cored at the time and had done 3 kills and 700+ DMG but apparently I have to be on the frontline to soak up damage and share armor... like a Shadowcat has that much to share anyway

#33 Blind Baku

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 02:21 PM

-Snipped lengthy response that didn't do much to further the conversation and generally agreed that LRMs are < Direct Fire-
Yeah, LRMs aren't great. Not sure they have no place though... at least not down here in T3 Potatoville they can still be pretty potent.

I do like the consistant Med-Long range damage, and with a Target Decay, you don't need to face time as hard to land the shots.

Here's to hoping they add ArrowVI.

Edited by Blind Baku, 25 November 2016 - 02:23 PM.


#34 Evil Goof

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 02:35 PM

View PostMech Nuggets, on 25 November 2016 - 02:02 PM, said:

unfortunately my video card is not the best. so when I turn on video capture, my framerates drop to an unplayable low. Gotta wait until I upgrade my system to be able to that ... needless to say, I would have sent that straight to support as well.
Anyhow, we still won the match my LRM-Atlas buddy was killed in but we lost the one I got killed for playing sniper from the flanks... I was cored at the time and had done 3 kills and 700+ DMG but apparently I have to be on the frontline to soak up damage and share armor... like a Shadowcat has that much to share anyway

Does your friend not understand that there are Archers, Catapults, and Stalkers that boat lrm's more effectively while not pulling an Atlas off the front line? Does he care?

Team killing violates the codes and terms set out by pgi... and it certainly is one of the things that really pisses people off in this game. Following this, bringing an lrm Atlas is considered by many a close second to teamkilling...

#35 Mech Nuggets

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 04:31 PM

View PostEvil Goof, on 25 November 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

Does your friend not understand that there are Archers, Catapults, and Stalkers that boat lrm's more effectively while not pulling an Atlas off the front line? Does he care?

Team killing violates the codes and terms set out by pgi... and it certainly is one of the things that really pisses people off in this game. Following this, bringing an lrm Atlas is considered by many a close second to teamkilling...

In Group Queue if you drop as a group of 2 you have 200 tons ... if your 12 man is completely comprised of 2 man groups that makes an astonishing amount of 12 atlas possible ... now what is he pulling from the frontline?
That Argument may be valid as a solo queue drop... but in group queue its BS...

#36 KoalaBrownie

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 04:39 PM

View PostTheLuc, on 23 November 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

Oldbob10025, while there is those players hate LRMs, usually those are also same crowd as the CoD, BF type that knows nothing about BattleTech lore.


Spoken like someone who has never been on the receiving end of a Call of Duty kill streak. Posted Image

#37 Evil Goof

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 05:41 PM

View PostMech Nuggets, on 25 November 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

In Group Queue if you drop as a group of 2 you have 200 tons ... if your 12 man is completely comprised of 2 man groups that makes an astonishing amount of 12 atlas possible ... now what is he pulling from the frontline?
That Argument may be valid as a solo queue drop... but in group queue its BS...

That is an incredible lack of both common sense and insight. Stupifyingly so. In your little dream land dropping in two's means there is a strong likelyhood of being paired up with five other groups of two who happen to all be running assaults...
What is frightening is it seems you actually believe this. I am sure you don't understand why your friend was tk'd....actually I am sure there is quite a lot of things you don't understand.

So I am taking that response as your friend and you could care less about those you are teamed up with as long as you get to do stupid stuff.

#38 VorpalAnvil

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 08:07 PM

View PostKoalaBrownie, on 25 November 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:


Spoken like someone who has never been on the receiving end of a Call of Duty kill streak. Posted Image

According to your badge you are relatively new, so I'll clue you in on something. There is a potato tier underhive here that views any mech not built to TRO rules as an abomination of tryhard comp L33T haxxors and they cite CoD and other FPS games as a slur. Nevermind that literally every other FPS game is exponentially more twitch based with a fraction of MWO's TTK. But then again, that crowd isn't big on facts.

#39 KoalaBrownie

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 09:24 PM

View PostVorpalAnvil, on 25 November 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

According to your badge you are relatively new, so I'll clue you in on something. There is a potato tier underhive here that views any mech not built to TRO rules as an abomination of tryhard comp L33T haxxors and they cite CoD and other FPS games as a slur. Nevermind that literally every other FPS game is exponentially more twitch based with a fraction of MWO's TTK. But then again, that crowd isn't big on facts.


Really? Where is this potato underhive? Do they have any psykers?

#40 BlueFlames

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 09:39 PM

View PostKoalaBrownie, on 25 November 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

Really? Where is this potato underhive? Do they have any psykers?


There is a potato underhive, but all they have is Phytophthora infestans.





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