307 replies to this topic

[VitriolicViolet]

hahaha root rot does suck though.

[Fiona Marshe]

As a specialist LRM user (or Streaks, my ping +fps aren't competitive in a close brawl), the biggest problem is not the build or skills.

Its the total silence during a 15min drop (or 30 min CW drop) where you try to talk to the team, get feedback about the local situation 800m away and who needs support (or sees a coming problem). Those matches wind up 12-0 and no meta build will save it.

Teamwork is OP... Not talking is death.

[Navy Sixes]

Hey, everyone.

I've returned to the game after an almost two-year hiatus, and I've been running my old C-4. That's probably why you're seeing this uptick in LRM haters .

All kidding aside, it's funny how little things have changed. Look though the archives and you will find this same argument has been raging through these forums for years, probably as long as there's been a game. It's nothing new.

Welcome to the latest flare up.

Sometimes there are debates as to mechanics, ranging from valid (adjusting LRM trajectories to reduce hang time and allow more opportunities for cover, for example) to the absurd (LRMs will always be guided weapons capable of indirect fire. Just stop.) No one is really doing this now with any conviction. Weirdly, everyone agrees that LRMs are some of the least effective systems in the game.

Sometimes, however, as seems to be the case this time around, the debate concerns the character of the LRM user. That is, that somehow running a dedicated LRM build is less sportsmanlike than the 1km Gauss/PPC alpha-zerg. Somehow, the argument goes, though well within PGI's terms of use certain builds and playstyles are "not how the game is supposed to be played." Maybe there's some truth to this. A bully shot is a bully shot, to be congratulated and proud of. Conversely, no one is ever going to pat the LRM-boat pilot on the back for spamming mouse 1 and indirectly lobbing volleys from the rear. If they're any good, LRM users can be as effective in winning a match as any sharpshooter, but it is an admittedly thankless profession.

That said, Oldbob's initial point --that guided, indirect fire is and has always been part of the game-- is a valid one, and is in my opinion the trumping precedent. Just as being a "good mechwarrior" means being able to make those bully shots, it also means knowing how to survive and excel in a dystopian warscape, of which LRMs are and always will be a part. A good mechwarrior counters the enemy's LRMs effectively, and utilizes their teammates' LRMs to maximum effect. Full stop.

You can try tweeting your whinge to Paul; it's worked in the past. Or you can keep salting up the forums. LRM pilots like myself love it. Show us all on the paper doll where the bad LRM-boat touched you.

When you're finished, shut up and play the game.

Edited for clarity and grammar.

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 26 November 2016 - 03:08 PM.

[Mech Nuggets]

Evil Goof, on 25 November 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

That is an incredible lack of both common sense and insight. Stupifyingly so. In your little dream land dropping in two's means there is a strong likelyhood of being paired up with five other groups of two who happen to all be running assaults...
What is frightening is it seems you actually believe this. I am sure you don't understand why your friend was tk'd....actually I am sure there is quite a lot of things you don't understand.

So I am taking that response as your friend and you could care less about those you are teamed up with as long as you get to do stupid stuff.

Lol.. Never spoke of a strong likelyhood. Just a possibility. Point is a mixed group in group queue has much more tonnage available than a full 12man group. Fact! If a two man group decides to drop in two underperforming vindicators. Nobody will teamkill them for bringing horrible mechs. If a player in a two man group brings an Lrm Atlas all hell breaks loose... Question. What is pulling more firepower from the team? You dont see the discrepancy in your logic huh?
Let me count it out for you:
Groups in Team:
2+10 = max tonnage 735
2+2+8 = max 900
2+4+6 = max 945
2+3+3+4 = max 1080
Feel free to calculate the other possible combinations yourself... But you see where this is going. Instead of spewing hate against one Atlas in a mixed group. Maybe the issue drawing armor and firepower from the frontline is not 1 out of 12 players choice of an lrm atlas, but rather the other players for not maxing out their tonnage...
But hey... Its always the LRM Atlas that creates the most rage.

[Lady A]

I feel LRMs are useful tools in a team; they can keep people pinned down and afraid to move to a better position, and they can punish people who expose themselves trying to cross to more advantageous positions, softening them up for your team.

I don't mind seeing an LRM or two on an Assault; after all it means they can contribute a little fire as they plod to the front lines, but when it's clear they've invested a LOT of tonnage into their LRMs (outside of certain exceptions) I do start to worry. I know I can't count on that LRM Atlas to draw fire from its paper tiger team mates until they're all dead. At best, if I'm in a Heavy, I can hope that the Light Mech piranhas will choose to feast on that Atlas first and buy everyone else a little more time.

Of course, there's the inverse of this as spectated a few times in the past week where an Assault with a single LRM10 or LRM5 is hiding behind the rest of the team, letting their 5+ lasers rust and making sure their armour stays shiny while they poot-poot away with a handful of missiles.

Personally, I have 2 LRM Mechs; a Hunchback-IIC which can move with the battle, flank effectively and lay down supporting fire while the brawlers are engaged and, as OldBob has witnessed, a ridiculous 4CLRM15+A (formerly 4CLRM20) Ebon Jaguar which displeases the mech gods but is a lot of fun to play and oddly effective. I try not to take either out into solo play, preferring to take mechs that can multi-role, and I always make sure the friends I'm dropping with know what I'm dropping in, so we can all adjust as needed.

[Navy Sixes]

Lady A, on 26 November 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

an Assault with a single LRM10 or LRM5 is hiding behind the rest of the team, letting their 5+ lasers rust and making sure their armour stays shiny while they poot-poot away with a handful of missiles.

Granted, but is it fair to point out their LRM loadout? Seems like every PUG I'm in, my team includes at least one delicate-flower-Direwolf who refuses to break cover. In every match we lose, I always seem to wind up spectating with the "last Kodiak/King Crab/Mauler standing," and its paper doll is frustratingly without blemish, regardless of whether they came with LRMS. "Sharing armor," indeed!

There's more than one way to "waste" an assault chassis; packing one-too-many LRMs for someone else's preference is probably the most forgivable of trespasses.

[krevLL]

LRMs have their place. If you're talking on a face to face confrontation, LRMs are almost always going to lose. Hanging back is begging for an Arctic Cheetah to come cause some butthurt, but if you stick with the second line and use them as suppression it can make all the difference in the match. My only mech boating is a 6xLRM5 Mad Dog and it sticks to the team and fires on anything that tries to brawl.

As anything, it's a victim of situation as well. Lots of red ECM? May as well just look at their feet and hold the trigger.

I like using them, but it's a different fun from being in the midst of a laser brawl or using SRMs. Good to have variety!

[Lady A]

Tycho von Gagern, on 26 November 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

Granted, but is it fair to point out their LRM loadout?

As I said, I don't mind seeing a little LRM on an Assault - as long as it's a secondary weapon; something to fire off at range as they close with the enemy, or lend fire support in situations where they can't poke out.

What has saddened me a little is repeatedly seeing an 85+ ton mech with 2LPLs and 4MLs sit at the back when the teams are 400m apart, firing off a single LRM10 (or worse, a single LRM5) when they could be both dishing out and absorbing much more damage for the team by getting their lasers and their amply armoured buttocks into the fight.

I mean, are people looking for value for money for every last missile in their loadout before resorting to energy weapons?

Edited by Lady A, 26 November 2016 - 01:44 PM.

[Navy Sixes]

Lady A, on 26 November 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

snip

That's a reasonable position, one I don't disagree with. My point is that the assault hiding behind cover and firing an LRM 5 is still contributing more than the assault hiding behind cover doing absolutely nothing while the rest of the team is trying to push, and I see way more of the latter than the former.

[Omaha]

I don't mind getting shot at with lrms, betty is sexy!

[Lady A]

Tycho von Gagern, on 26 November 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

That's a reasonable position, one I don't disagree with. My point is that the assault hiding behind cover and firing an LRM 5 is still contributing more than the assault hiding behind cover doing absolutely nothing while the rest of the team is trying to push, and I see way more of the latter than the former.

You're quite right. A dual ER PPC "Sniping" Atlas (without ECM) attempting, somehow, to go unnoticed and flank, using Advanced Zoom and taking 10-15 seconds to try and line up every shot while managing to actually hit nothing is just as detrimental to the team as Locko McLocksplease the LRMs-or-bust Atlas pilot. Moreso, even.

n.b. My salty view may be influenced by the match I just spectated.

[Mech Nuggets]

Lady A, on 26 November 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

n.b. My salty view may be influenced by the match I just spectated.

just spectated a Executioner with 2 Large Pulse Lasers ... thats it ... just 2 LPL... in one Arm...

[Potatomasher69]

I have been chain firing 4 LRM5s on a catapult pretty hard for roughly a week. Some of the hate on boats I understand fully now, but when built to be quick with fast sensor pickup I have found many an intangible value and underestimated power behind LRMs;

-When you are running with the team, your DPS has great uptime. In the chaos of quick play, proper positioning is difficult to communicate and achieve. The moment an ally wants to push you can be providing fire support from almost anywhere immediately once he presses R. There is no shooting your ally in the back to get a shot or a short run to get a firing line, and no lost value on his armor taking fire while you get position with your lasers. Keep moving to support but achieve lock and start firing.

-You would be surprised how many times I have noticed people angle to shield against the advancing brawler while my missiles get rear armor or even CT. Then, once they see the lrms come in they start twisting and the pushing mech gets to cherry pick CT shots.

-Lrm5s actually seem pretty good at putting its damage on CT. And when the enemy mech is too fast it seems like I start getting leg shots.

-Aiming, I like my PPCs, but I certainly don't have to worry about zooming in, leading my target, or spreading my fire badly..

-With the faster engine in the catapult, I have literally gotten kills on some lone fat mechs by just laying into reverse and letting the lrms fly while maintaining lock. I have watched people's aim get poor when the screen shake starts and suddenly become terrible at shots just 350 meters away.

There are a few known drawbacks. Mostly being just a small laser when a light finds me, and maps, in particular the tunnel invasion at Crimson Straight, where the dock mostly knocks down all my missiles unless fired close. EDIT, also, during the peekaboo phase of quick play games, my commitment to team becomes scout until the fights really get started. I have dumbfired lrms to a peekaboo spot and had them land on people camping a spot too, good laffs were had.

Edited by Rismonite, 28 November 2016 - 05:52 AM.

[Tordin]

I just went full bananas with my 5W in the recent match, were close to the rest of my group and cqc lurming as mad. To bad the 5w dont have a high center torso energy hp for a tag laser. Would been a bit easier getting locks for myself. Was damn fun, thats for sure!

[Darkhorse13Golf]

Hate to bring real military tactics to a game but my unit runs NARC\TAG lights with LRM boats for fun and it is effective. In my time as a soldier I learned that one scout with a radio can cause more havoc then a battalion of tanks. It can play that way here though in a bit more muted fashion. One subtlety that I think is lost on many players is the fact that LRMs are supposed to deny areas of the map as much as inflict damage. Not to mention the days of the long range static lurmer are numbered if not done. Your new lurmer uses the minimap and comms to prioritize his targets and put the missiles where they are most needed. They also fight at much shorter range. This allows for shorter flight times and more effective fires on the target. This also let's the missileer support the line directly with his backup weapons if necessary (that's right, sometimes you have to put the LRMs away and get stuck in there). A good lurmer is also more then willing to get his own locks, which is why speed is an important part of the LRM build. I could go on but basically what I'm saying is that between skilled MechWarriors knowing the maps and proper movement techniques, Light 'Mechs hunting for your ***, sometimes what seems to be entire NETWORKS of AMS and having to be much closer to the front line meaning if the line folds you'd better be able to cut and run or fight your way out.....the current LRM meta, for want of a better term, requires a much more diverse skill set then the old "Gimme locks, I point click" way a lot of lurmers played before. I see a lot players post that they played LRMs, did the point and click thing, scored a few hundred points and called it a brainless. I score significantly higher then that and it's because I use proactive, aggressive lurming. Didn't mean to go on a rant but I felt I had to defend the whole LRM thing, lol.

[Evil Goof]

Mech Nuggets, on 26 November 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

Lol.. Never spoke of a strong likelyhood. Just a possibility. Point is a mixed group in group queue has much more tonnage available than a full 12man group. Fact! If a two man group decides to drop in two underperforming vindicators. Nobody will teamkill them for bringing horrible mechs. If a player in a two man group brings an Lrm Atlas all hell breaks loose... Question. What is pulling more firepower from the team? You dont see the discrepancy in your logic huh?
Let me count it out for you:
Groups in Team:
2+10 = max tonnage 735
2+2+8 = max 900
2+4+6 = max 945
2+3+3+4 = max 1080
Feel free to calculate the other possible combinations yourself... But you see where this is going. Instead of spewing hate against one Atlas in a mixed group. Maybe the issue drawing armor and firepower from the frontline is not 1 out of 12 players choice of an lrm atlas, but rather the other players for not maxing out their tonnage...
But hey... Its always the LRM Atlas that creates the most rage.

No because your what ifs don't happen and do not even approach common sense or even a semblance of logic. Your number crunching is not a justification for one of the most moronic things you can do in this game. For the most part you can be assured that in the higher tiers people are going to be playing good solid builds (not neccessarily meta).

As far as people dropping in Victors and other mechs that struggle, yes it absolutely does piss off people that are trying to win. I grouped up with my unit today and ran into 228 and SiG guys who were all poptarting in meta and kicking some ***. We had some respectable fights against them until we were paired up a couple times with lrm spam Catapult A1 and another running a Phract. They were useless. After being stuck with them a couple times we actually took a break so that we could avoid being paired with them so we could at the very least show up on the battelfield.

So you can keep trying to find loopholes in numbers and playing the long odds. It is beyond you not thinking "logically" and I get that you will never get it. I am not the one who invented the hate of the lrm Atlas. It's universally hated across the board. It's sad that there will be people who run this and don't comprehend why they are hated or why people will try and avoid them.

[Count Zero 74]

I only hate the LURMers on my team. Enemy can have as much LURMs as they want, the more the better.

[Jman5]

When people yell at you for bringing LRMs 9 times out of 10 you're just a scapegoat for a frustrated player who has died and is about to lose. Because LRMs are a long range weapon there is a greater tendency that you're going to be one of the last few mechs to die.

I played a game a couple days ago in a LRM boat and some guy in a small mech went to flank the enemy team. For whatever reason the rest of the team decided to follow the flanker and eventually all were killed. The flanker then gets very mad and starts yelling about how they shouldn't have followed him. I was the only one who didn't follow and continued pressuring the team from where we were all just fighting before. Moments after yelling at the team for following him, he's switches gears yelling at me for "going off on his own." Finally he notices my lrms and yells at me for that.

So no matter what I did, he was going to yell at me for that.

[Darkhorse13Golf]

Evil Goof, on 28 November 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

No because your what ifs don't happen and do not even approach common sense or even a semblance of logic. Your number crunching is not a justification for one of the most moronic things you can do in this game. For the most part you can be assured that in the higher tiers people are going to be playing good solid builds (not neccessarily meta).

As far as people dropping in Victors and other mechs that struggle, yes it absolutely does piss off people that are trying to win. I grouped up with my unit today and ran into 228 and SiG guys who were all poptarting in meta and kicking some ***. We had some respectable fights against them until we were paired up a couple times with lrm spam Catapult A1 and another running a Phract. They were useless. After being stuck with them a couple times we actually took a break so that we could avoid being paired with them so we could at the very least show up on the battelfield.

So you can keep trying to find loopholes in numbers and playing the long odds. It is beyond you not thinking "logically" and I get that you will never get it. I am not the one who invented the hate of the lrm Atlas. It's universally hated across the board. It's sad that there will be people who run this and don't comprehend why they are hated or why people will try and avoid them.

So basically you are saying people who are trying to make chassis work that aren't cookie cutter elitist mindless meta are ruining the game. I'm sorry, I think it's kind of fun taking an unloved chassis and tinkering until it works. I'm working on the Vindicator right now and run Molten Metal's build with the 1X which is actually effective and found a harassment build for the 1R that isn't useless.

The point is, get over yourself. You got annoyed over a pair of LRM boats and a Cataphract? I call ******** that they were completely useless as you say. Just because they aren't mindlessly following the meta doesn't mean much really.

I think a major part of this game is making things work and tinkering. A lot of the fun for me is taking 'Mechs and going against the grain. Doesn't always work but a lot of times it does. I have a Thunderbolt that I turned into a lurmer/lurmer bodyguard that can switch to frontline duty and back again as needed. (5 MPL, 2 LRM-10A w/7.5 tons of ammo, a 300 XL-rather have a Standard but it is what it is, 12 DHS and 416/422 armor, this thing moves at 80 kph after speed tweak).

My point is that this is a game and if people want to try wacky **** and not be a meta drone for a while well....why not? I usually give a build a few tries before giving up on it so if you run across a player with a build that isn't working out chances are they won't be running it long.

Edited by Darkhorse13Golf, 29 November 2016 - 05:32 AM.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

I think honestly the problem with LRM boats is not LRM boats it is many of the people who play them.

Many LRM people think that LRM is "easy mode". Hang back wait for locks and fire... thats it. No moving, no tight fight etc. just get kills for free.

However I think LRM (and PPC to an extend) can be extremely useful, but are more complicated to play than some other weapon systems as they both have a min range and you need to know your engagement time (flight time etc.).
Also I still think that 100% boats are useless. Yes a full AC or laser vomit works, as it works from max range to standing in front of the enemy. If a good team manages to shorten it to a brawl your LRM only boat is useless.

Then about tactics and flight times. Yes some mechs have quirks on that and honestly Clan LRM have a slight disadvantage here (why I dislike Clan LRM20s). If you have a good opponent with ECM or good terrain usage you can pin them to a degree, but you will be hugely more effective closing range to mid to close LRM range, possibly even sharing some armor from sniper shots. I know some pilots with LRM/Laser stalker builds that are awesome in doing this. One some mechs with LRM velocity quirks this can result in fast rain of death if he comes out for the sniper shot, gets Narc -> boom.

Many "non meta" builds are very underrated in that way, it also depends on playstyle. But I hate LRM easy mode guys, that even if things go south cannot close in to share armor and still be effective. Even in tabletop games we called them mindless LRM bots and they did not work there and certainly will not work in MWO which is much faster paced. There is no easy mode in MWO.

The thing that is even worse is, that in some low tier games that tactic even works and those easy mode people get re-assured that it is the teams fault if they are useless...

The same goes for mindless snipers, camping for 10min like idiots not hitting anything and then wondering why they are chased down after the rest is already dead, as their 100ton jump sniper is at 100% armor...

Edited by Hoshi Toranaga, 29 November 2016 - 05:52 AM.