141 replies to this topic

[KoalaBrownie]

Johnny Z, on 05 December 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

QFT

I made replies about this exact thing in open beta. Well before faction play came out.

Others made replies saying lobbies were a good idea and all sorts of things like that. I said "Make matches quickly!" basically. Players can always screw around if they want, don't need to have that part of getting a match.

I think others wanted to build atmosphere in a way with the lobbies, in their defense. Preping for a battle and all that. But theme and atmosphere aint that easy. It isn't waiting around in a lifeless lobby like the guy up top said.

And also, compare a game like Mechwarrior Online to Planetside 2. A game of probably comparable scope and support from a playerbase and company-standpoint.

Planetside 2 as I understand it revolves entirely around Faction play. Factions vie for control of a few planets through ongoing, planetary battles with vehicles, troops, fighters, etcetera. That is as far as I know the whole game.

So Planetside 2's mode revolves around "Faction Warfare", and how many factions are in the game? THREE.

How many were in MWO's Faction play? TEN or so? And it's not even the main game mode, but a separate mode?

Maybe Faction Warfare has problems. I don't know, I've never been able to play it. But part of fixing it will involve first off, people actually playing the thing, getting more data, more feedback from the player base, more REASON to actually fix those problems because it makes up a greater proportion of the game.

If Faction Warfare is a dead game, better to jump start its heart with a defibrilator and adrenaline before worrying about combing its hair, yeah?

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 05 December 2016 - 06:03 PM.

[Lupis Volk]

KoalaBrownie, on 05 December 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

And also, compare a game like Mechwarrior Online to Planetside 2. A game of probably comparable scope and support from a playerbase and company-standpoint.

Planetside 2 as I understand it revolves entirely around Faction play. Factions vie for control of a few planets through ongoing, planetary battles with vehicles, troops, fighters, etcetera. That is as far as I know the whole game.

So Planetside 2's mode revolves around "Faction Warfare", and how many factions are in the game? THREE.

How many were in MWO's Faction play? TEN or so? And it's not even the main game mode, but a separate mode?

Maybe Faction Warfare has problems. I don't know, I've never been able to play it. But part of fixing it will involve first off, people actually playing the thing, getting more data, more feedback from the player base, more REASON to actually fix those problems because it makes up a greater proportion of the game.

If Faction Warfare is a dead game, better to jump start its heart with a defibrilator and adrenaline before worrying about combing its hair, yeah?

Also to go along with Planetside 2. "Faction Play" is the only game mode there is.

[JC Daxion]

Dude im totally stoked for this patch...

[MedivalJ]

1) Does this mean they'll be resetting the map? Ex. the clans, including Jade Falcon, will be set toward the beginning of the war. In addition, as a suggestion, a little more prominent overlay within the orange and blue overlays would help indicate there are still factions within the IS and Clans.

2) What does this do to Freelance and Mercenary players? Are players forced to pick a side? Can they change sides at a later time?

3) Escort:
a. Why an atlas? Why not a vehicle or civilian-oriented target? Expansion to this idea is multiple VIPs, not mechs, where only one is required to reach the target destination. (teams would receive bonus payouts based on the number of targets destroyed)
b. The game mode should begin in one of three fashions.
- First, the VIP, and escorts, are dropped into a clearing and must travel to a military installation.
- Second, the VIP, and escorts, are spawned in a military installation and must travel to an extraction point.
- Third, the VIP, and escorts, are spawned in a military installation and must travel to another military installation.
4) Assault - no thoughts or issues really... Probably make walls a little thicker if anything.
5) Skill tree - only issue is the availability of re-spec and how that would be setup.

Edited by MedivalJ, 05 December 2016 - 06:24 PM.

[El Bandito]

PhoenixFire55, on 05 December 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

Honestly? We've heard the same thing prior to FP1.0, then prior to FP2.0, then prior to FP3.0 ... ya know, it gets old real quick.

Yep, those reworks didn't do jack to save CW. If anything, they hastened its demise.

[Kasumi Sumika]

1. Don't care about FP and I never played it so I'm not so much hype

2. Escort is a big risk to a new mode. Also this maybe asymmetrical game mode that ppl wants from MW:O. Expect a lot of hot-fixes / update to make this mode more polished and less exploitable.

3. Quirks removed and Skill tree now like A SKILL TREE. My only fear that superior mechs like Kodiak, Ebon Jag, Timby, etc become more meta. But we will see at least they want tested it in January as PTR. Hope they delivered in February as promised.

[MedivalJ]

KoalaBrownie, on 05 December 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

Planetside 2 as I understand it revolves entirely around Faction play. Factions vie for control of a few planets through ongoing, planetary battles with vehicles, troops, fighters, etcetera. That is as far as I know the whole game.

There are a few problems between Planetside 2 and MWOs faction play.
First, Planetside 2's faction play involves a constant fighting battlefield in which players are at all times on the ground fighting one another for dominance of the continent. MWO only contains short maps and short games. While I'd love for MWO to reach such a scale, or at least something slightly similar, it's a monumental undertaking to create something comparable.
Second, Planetside 2 only revolves around a total of four continents. That's four monumental size maps which are constantly in flux. MWO contains literally hundreds of planets which compounds the first issue, in addition to load times between planet travel.
Third, factions in Planetside 2 and MWO aren't really even in the same league. Planetside 2 has three factions which each have their own weapons, vehicles, backstory, etc... all unique to that faction. MWO in it's current state, realistically only has two. This isn't really an issue, just mentioned for context.

In summary, I'm not saying it's a bad idea. However, MWO and Planetside 2 are not directly comparable as they are both different in their own rights. Larger planet-specific maps and active faction play are good, doable ideas. However, getting MWO to function like Planetside 2 in all respects relating to map and activity scale would be an enormous cost to which it'd be cheaper to make another MWO with only 4 maps.

Edited by MedivalJ, 05 December 2016 - 09:19 PM.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Okay, I watched (some) of the videos and read over the main posts here and on Twitter and here are my thoughts (rant incoming)

Faction Warfare
Faction Warfare is dead. If it's not dead, then it's on life support and fading fast. Something needs to be done. I don't know exactly what "something" looks like, but from the looks of things, what is planned and talked about is "something". The only thing I have to say at this point is shut up! Shut Up! SHUT UP!!! Either play the mode, or don't. Stop bitching about what is, what isn't or whatever it is that you think you want. Just. SHUT. UP!

Yes, I am mad...mostly because I'm sick and tired of the circle-jerking of perpetual hate for FW because of changes that this community wanted, demanded and begged for!
Yeah, I'm saying it - every. single. thing that is part of FW3 is because of this community. This player base. All of it!

Separating of Solos from Units? DEMANDED by this community!
Putting them back together due to crap population and long wait-times? DEMANDED by this community!
Some means of penalizing large units to keep them from growing larger? DEMANDED by this community!
Some use for all of the stupid amount of money that units *can* accrue? DEMANDED by this community!
Division between Mercs, Loyalists and Solos? DEMANDED by this community!
Reduced attack lanes? DEMANDED by this community!
Long Tom implementation? I lost count of how many people I saw *ASKING* for it!
Tangible rewards and in-game effects that show a steamrolling effect as a faction gains more successes? DEMANDED by this community!
A *smaller* mode for FW that didn't require 12v12 but also affected the larger invasion mode? DEMANDED by this community!

YOU *ASKED* for FW3! PGI delivered, against their better judgement (yes, there have been tweets, both by Russ and by those who watch and understand the comp scene) who thought it was a bad idea. But they went with it anyway because it was DEMANDED by this community.

All of the changes that are being implemented for FW4? Again, DEMANDED by this community. I have lost count of how many people have been complaining about this or that and absolutely refuse to touch FW until its done. And now, now that PGI is trying to make moves IN DOING THE EXACT THING YOU ARE DEMANDING you are complaining that they're making it worse!!!

I have news for you, PGI CAN'T MAKE IT WORSE!!! Faction Warfare is a dead zone, at this rate, anything they do short of cutting it out completely will either be a marked improvement or will maintain things as they are.

So for you people who have nothing better to do than complain about how [insert thing] is going to destroy FW, you need to sit down and shut up. Changes are coming and there is no point in complaining about it until it actually goes live and people actually see how things pan out.
Experience Tables
You people complaining about this? SHUT UP TOO! No, seriously. PGI has been saying for *years* that they intended on revamping the experience point system, adjusting the piloting trees and all that crap. And this community has been DEMANDING THAT EXACT SAME THING!

Now that PGI is actually going to do it? SHUT UP! YOU ASKED FOR THIS!

It has been stated that earned and bought XP/GXP will be refunded. You lose nothing!

New Game Mode
This community has been complaining for YEARS about there being a genuine *need* for a new game mode of some sort. The first new game mode that came into existence since I have been here was Domination, which is, admittedly hit-or-miss. It's still, effectively Skirmish, but it is very brawler friendly and punishes too much sniping. It's still 12 vs 12 Arena Team Death-Match, but at least there's a new flavor that is kinda interesting.

That being said, folks have been DEMANDING some sort of asymmetrical combat for quite some time. A clear "Attacker vs. Defender" with clear tangible objectives...kinda like the Scouting Mode that was introduced for FW.

Now that PGI is actually taking steps to do the *exact* thing you've been demanding and you want to ***** about it?!? F#@% YOU!!!

Changes to Assault Mode
My feelings on this are pretty much the same as the new game mode rant above. People complained about the 2-base system with the turrets, so turrets were removed. They then complained about it being reduced to Skirmish with a jerk-hole objective (cap the base), and that the bases needed defenses... and on top of this, there has *still* been a demand for some sort of asymmetric combat... and HERE IT IS! Again, PGI is actually taking steps to do the thing you want, and you still want to *****!!! F#@% YOU!!!

/rant


As a matter of clarity, I have been disappointed with the game for awhile.
- All modes are, effectively, 12v12 TDM any more. I wish the reward system would go back to what it used to be: you get more points/C-Bills/XP for completing the *primary* objective (capping the base, gathering resources) than you do for damage/kills. I liked that setup, because Conquest and Assault didn't start as TDM... but it ended up there to keep the other team from winning on points/base cap! Now the unspoken rule is to ignore the primary mission objective unless you're about to lose.

- It's been made clear that FW is *not* for someone like me...that is, someone who wants to play casually and earn Faction Points for the factions that he finds cool for inexplicable reasons...as well as use the Mechs that he paid real money for. I used to like to spend 2 weeks as FRR and 2 weeks as Smoke Jaguar and slowly work up the rep in both factions... but with the way FW3 has been set up, I can't do that unless I go Loyalist...and the cooldown requirements are just too onerous and the penalties too steep to make it worthwhile. Shame, because it means the Phoenix Mechs I have now collect dust because there's no point in using them. Ever.

There have been other ways that I feel that I've been screwed or overlooked by PGI's changes and shifts in direction. I don't play as much as I used to because of the general lack of content. I mean, I only really play when there's an event going on or something. Despite all this, I accept that there are and will be changes and just roll with it.

This all being said, I'm looking forward to what's coming down the pike. I want to see what's going on in FW... I want/hope that I can play kinda-sorta like I used to during CW1 and CW2.... but I accept that may not be the case. I want to see these new game modes as well; they look interesting and would go a long way to adding some much-needed flavor to the present mode.

[MischiefSC]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 05 December 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

I will admit, the promised CW from a few years ago didn't really worked out and it wouldn't work out if they continue. Very few people are playing CW and with 10 factions, the already small player base is only further getting thinned and spread out.

IMHO, THIS is a possible fix to CW. As a FRR pilot, I rarely see any groups queuing near our borders as the Clanners have already cut us off. This is a possible fix so that every faction will have more chance to fight and play CW. The board won't be divided in 10 where some factions may end up being cut off and not see action. Everyone will have a chance to fight.

People should be finding matches easier as there is only a single front line. The more people that stays playing CW means the new people coming over to CW will have people to play with. The new people won't be coming over to an abandoned game mode with no one to play. The cycle then continues when the next group of people wanting to try CW will keep playing since they have people to play with. IMHO that's how PGI will get people to play CW more, by actually letting us play CW. The borders and the map should be changing more rapidly here as the battles are focused on a single line, not Khala knows how many frontlines out there with 10 Factions fighting each other

True.

You get rid of the factions and it's all so simple!

We should have done this before.

Now they just need to make teams mixed - IS and Clan, just like QP. That would fill matches *much* quicker because it eliminates the population imbalance!

Since factions/sides are now irrelevant, why not?

All that's missing then is a matchmaker and separating units and pugs into different queues! Then it'll have all the same draw that QP has....

because it'll just be new maps/modes for QP. Which is, end of the day, really all this is.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Lostdragon, on 05 December 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

The whole bloody point is it is not really an improvement. The current FW is a working mode, it just is not very good and this update does nothing to address the real problems with the mode.

Then what are these issues and what do you suggest PGI do to it?
IMHO Player count is the biggest issue in CW. It simply will not work when there's already a small player base playing and when they're spread out all over the map, looking for battles on their borders.

I agree with the bit about mercs though

[MischiefSC]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 05 December 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

Then what are these issues and what do you suggest PGI do to it?
IMHO Player count is the biggest issue in CW. It simply will not work when there's already a small player base playing and when they're spread out all over the map, looking for battles on their borders.

I agree with the bit about mercs though

The population is small because factions and worlds mean nothing, there's no logistics of any sort to add depth or purpose to the above and a long list of other issues.

We had thousands in FW 1/2. At one point Davion had over 100 players each on Marik, Liao and Kurita borders at the same time in primetime and still had some teams playing the Clans.

People were excited to be part of a faction trying to take over the universe, we made alliances and made strategies and politics and trash talked our enemies.

Then.... we started to run into the issue of how pointless the dots were, that being a loyalist was in all ways inferior to being a merc and the imbalances between IS and Clan tech. Then the issues with how the ghost drop mechanics worked (weaponized boredom!) and team v pugs. The things we *should* have been able to do like share borders with allies to reinforce and dynamically adjust faction populations to deal with imbalances, to have faction membership really a meaningful choice, that mercs should be *hired* and hired for a specific strategic goal and not just these huge unit population boosts hopping around at will to shuffle the map....

so people left. Then LT showed up and people left *in droves* and PGI ignored it. That's the critical piece; we had some issues but it was still fixable in 2.0. There was still hope, there were people who wanted to come back. If we'd gotten this new QP maps and stuff for 3.0 and no LT? If we'd gotten dynamic alliances you vote for (so for example Liao votes to ally with Kurita then Liao and Kurita pilots can all drop on each others fronts mixed) you'd have a dynamic population that can shrink or grow, contract or focus as needed to deal with the ebb and flow of players and you'd have had excitement and growth.

This? This is an embrace of failure. Ignoring the huge issues created by 3.0 for so long got a lot of people to give up and now? The elimination of faction relevance entirely is blowing off the bulk of players that FW should appeal to and giving nothing really to draw anyone else in. The pugs who come? They're going to get stomped repeatedly and quit. Units? I can already tell you being in contact with most the units who still play.... most are probably going Clans. With factions gone why not play with the better mechs/tech? Especially with quirk removal coming in a month or so. You'd be an idiot to stay IS. With faction membership being even more irrelevant than it was before why not?

The bucket change is the embrace of failure. Just try to keep the declining few finding matches while giving nothing substantial to get new people playing.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 05 December 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

Then what are these issues and what do you suggest PGI do to it?
IMHO Player count is the biggest issue in CW. It simply will not work when there's already a small player base playing and when they're spread out all over the map, looking for battles on their borders.

I agree with the bit about mercs though

The primary issue is that there is are fundamental differences between the different sorts of players who want to play FW...and some (though not all) are mutually exclusive to each other.

For example, there are people who want to play FW so they and their unit can control/move the map around. They like the space-nerd politics that go along with their giant stompy robots. These guys, whether as a unit or as casuals, play for fun and don't really care beyond that. This crowd runs directly counter to the competitive guys. These guys play to win, and winning is all they care about. Drop, take the objective ASAP, repeat until the planet is theirs because success is measured by tagged planets.

These two types of players are mutually exclusive to each other because while both groups want to win, one group doesn't care about spawn-camping or gen-rushing...while the other tend to avoid such tactics.

You have folks that don't care about the space-nerd politics or the meta-tryhards, but they do want to drop with their friends/unit/faction...then you have guys that just want to play. They don't want to join a unit or faction, they just want to play giant stompy robots in something other than just 12v12 TDM. These two are also mutually exclusive, because one requires teamwork and prefers to play vs. other units, and the other rejects the idea of doing exactly that and are more at home in QP... but they're bored of QP or want something different (even if it's just the rewards)

To be clear, these lines of division aren't definitive, nor are they the only sorts of people that want to play FW... but their mindsets do make things mutually exclusive to each other.

I mean, if things aren't hard-core comp, you alienate that group...but if they are, then you alienate the casuals. If things aren't team-oriented and focused, you alienate those guys... but if there is too much "Teamwork OP", then the casuals are pushed out. And keeping things separated isn't the answer.

I watched units/groups poke fun at the casuals and pretty much want the casuals and solos out. Feeling was mutual; solos hated facing off against groups/units. But the fact of the matter is that the population of this game can't support such division. It never could

...so at the end of it, there is no real solution for FW that will satisfy enough people to make a real difference.

[Lostdragon]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 05 December 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

Then what are these issues and what do you suggest PGI do to it?
IMHO Player count is the biggest issue in CW. It simply will not work when there's already a small player base playing and when they're spread out all over the map, looking for battles on their borders.

I agree with the bit about mercs though

The solution is to make it fun and meaningful, not to water it down and make it even more meaningless. Quote below sums it up very nicely, people wanted to play FW but then they realized it sucked. They built it, we came, it was awful, we left. I have absolutely no desire to play FW as is or with the upcoming changes, but if PGI seriously redesigned it and addressed the issues that we have been giving feedback about for years I would play FW.

MischiefSC, on 05 December 2016 - 08:34 PM, said:

The population is small because factions and worlds mean nothing, there's no logistics of any sort to add depth or purpose to the above and a long list of other issues.

We had thousands in FW 1/2. At one point Davion had over 100 players each on Marik, Liao and Kurita borders at the same time in primetime and still had some teams playing the Clans.

People were excited to be part of a faction trying to take over the universe, we made alliances and made strategies and politics and trash talked our enemies.

Then.... we started to run into the issue of how pointless the dots were, that being a loyalist was in all ways inferior to being a merc and the imbalances between IS and Clan tech. Then the issues with how the ghost drop mechanics worked (weaponized boredom!) and team v pugs. The things we *should* have been able to do like share borders with allies to reinforce and dynamically adjust faction populations to deal with imbalances, to have faction membership really a meaningful choice, that mercs should be *hired* and hired for a specific strategic goal and not just these huge unit population boosts hopping around at will to shuffle the map....

so people left. Then LT showed up and people left *in droves* and PGI ignored it. That's the critical piece; we had some issues but it was still fixable in 2.0. There was still hope, there were people who wanted to come back. If we'd gotten this new QP maps and stuff for 3.0 and no LT? If we'd gotten dynamic alliances you vote for (so for example Liao votes to ally with Kurita then Liao and Kurita pilots can all drop on each others fronts mixed) you'd have a dynamic population that can shrink or grow, contract or focus as needed to deal with the ebb and flow of players and you'd have had excitement and growth.

This? This is an embrace of failure. Ignoring the huge issues created by 3.0 for so long got a lot of people to give up and now? The elimination of faction relevance entirely is blowing off the bulk of players that FW should appeal to and giving nothing really to draw anyone else in. The pugs who come? They're going to get stomped repeatedly and quit. Units? I can already tell you being in contact with most the units who still play.... most are probably going Clans. With factions gone why not play with the better mechs/tech? Especially with quirk removal coming in a month or so. You'd be an idiot to stay IS. With faction membership being even more irrelevant than it was before why not?

The bucket change is the embrace of failure. Just try to keep the declining few finding matches while giving nothing substantial to get new people playing.

Very well said.

Edited by Lostdragon, 05 December 2016 - 09:06 PM.

[Johnny Z]

AnimeFreak40K, on 05 December 2016 - 08:38 PM, said:

The primary issue is that there is are fundamental differences between the different sorts of players who want to play FW...and some (though not all) are mutually exclusive to each other.

For example, there are people who want to play FW so they and their unit can control/move the map around. They like the space-nerd politics that go along with their giant stompy robots. These guys, whether as a unit or as casuals, play for fun and don't really care beyond that. This crowd runs directly counter to the competitive guys. These guys play to win, and winning is all they care about. Drop, take the objective ASAP, repeat until the planet is theirs because success is measured by tagged planets.

These two types of players are mutually exclusive to each other because while both groups want to win, one group doesn't care about spawn-camping or gen-rushing...while the other tend to avoid such tactics.

You have folks that don't care about the space-nerd politics or the meta-tryhards, but they do want to drop with their friends/unit/faction...then you have guys that just want to play. They don't want to join a unit or faction, they just want to play giant stompy robots in something other than just 12v12 TDM. These two are also mutually exclusive, because one requires teamwork and prefers to play vs. other units, and the other rejects the idea of doing exactly that and are more at home in QP... but they're bored of QP or want something different (even if it's just the rewards)

To be clear, these lines of division aren't definitive, nor are they the only sorts of people that want to play FW... but their mindsets do make things mutually exclusive to each other.

I mean, if things aren't hard-core comp, you alienate that group...but if they are, then you alienate the casuals. If things aren't team-oriented and focused, you alienate those guys... but if there is too much "Teamwork OP", then the casuals are pushed out. And keeping things separated isn't the answer.

I watched units/groups poke fun at the casuals and pretty much want the casuals and solos out. Feeling was mutual; solos hated facing off against groups/units. But the fact of the matter is that the population of this game can't support such division. It never could

...so at the end of it, there is no real solution for FW that will satisfy enough people to make a real difference.

Truth is regular players could not care less about guilds or comp play. Not even a tiny bit. How ever the same cannot be said for the opposite.

Some try to punish regular players thinking they will join guilds to avoid it. Using cheats very often as well. Why? Because group queue is not the preferred queue by 90 or so %. Taken to the extreme guild mentality can empty a queue.

I think guilds are a way to suck the fun out of games to be entirely honest and are made specifically to do that.

Players just want a good game to play.

Edited by Johnny Z, 05 December 2016 - 09:44 PM.

[RestosIII]

Johnny Z, on 05 December 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

Using cheats very often as well.

[Carl Vickers]

Johnny Z, on 05 December 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

Using cheats very often as well. Why? Because group queue is not the preferred queue by 90 or so %. Taken to the extreme guild mentality can empty a queue.

I think guilds are a way to suck the fun out of games to be entirely honest and are made specifically to do that.

And the bad/real Johnny is back.

BTW, in this game it is 'units' not guilds.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

AnimeFreak40K, on 05 December 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

Yes, I am mad...mostly because I'm sick and tired of the circle-jerking of perpetual hate for FW because of changes that this community wanted, demanded and begged for!

Too true.

[MauttyKoray]

Oberost, on 05 December 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

Sure...



NOT.

Oh hey, this is the song I listen to every time I pilot my Awesomes. On loop.

No seriously, I'm not joking...

[Johnny Z]

....

Edited by Johnny Z, 05 December 2016 - 10:04 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Just out of interest Johnny, are you in a unit that is not of your own creation?