283 replies to this topic

[Ted Wayz]

Barantor, on 06 December 2016 - 06:49 PM, said:

I never said I wanted pilot skill trees. Each mech is like a character and needs it's own build and skills so I'm fine with it being in that style. If we had an actual pilot character then it would be different, it might even be added later which would be interesting.

I never said you wanted pilot skill trees either. This is a conversation that goes way back to when we first got pilot skill trees and we were like what?

Each mech is like a character? So do you have a different license depending on what car you drive? or if you drive a pickup or a convertible? No.

A logical argument might be based on class of mech, say lights versus assaults being the difference between a car and a semi, which does require a different set of skills. But the overall premise that each mech needs its own skill set...can't go there.

[Nightmare1]

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

respecs need to be relatively cheap or it defeats the purpose of having different skill trees in the first place

if people cant experiment freely then why even have an open ended skill system? its dumb

not saying respecs should be entirely free but paywalling them behind an MC cost is wrong.

It's not paywalled though - you can do it with C-bills. This makes it no different from the Cool Shot 9x9, for example. It'll take you a little longer to grind it out, sure. But it's still free.

Paywalls apply more to the cosmetic stuff like cockpit items, or the Premium Mechs like Hero Mechs. Those are completely, totally paywalled; there's no way to get them for free unless PGI gives them to you (which actually does happen frequently).

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

it is different because I have hundreds of mechs

but in most other f2p games with respecs I only have like 1-2 characters

that is a HUGE difference

I have about 150 Mechs and this respec stuff doesn't bother me in the least. That's mainly because I own multiple variants of each Chassis.

3 Shadowhawks? No prob! I'll spec one out for brawling, one for sniping, and one for skirmishing. Why would I ever need to respec when each variant fills a different niche?

I have every HBK in the game. I'll spec each one out a bit differently from the others to give it its own unique flavor.

Three Atlases? No prob! I'll spec one to be super tanky, one to have huge DPS, and the other to be a mix.

Having lots of Mechs, for this system, is actually beneficial since you can use the extra variants to fill niches. That way, you don't have to respec.

Besides, if PGI is smart, they'll set it up so that you can have, for example, two CPLT-A1s. You can spec one to be a splat boat, and spec out the second one to be a lurm boat. No respec token needed, and no grind needed to complete the respec.

If anything, this will hurt the players with fewer and less mastered Mechs more since they will have to invest in more Mechbays to get around the potential respec issues.

vandalhooch, on 06 December 2016 - 06:49 PM, said:

You can use GXP to re-spec. Pay the C-bill cost and use your massed GXP that you will be receiving from what you spent on modules. Seriously, this isn't nearly the "paywall" others are claiming it to be.

Exactly! People are hyperventilating over the fact that they can spend MC on this, while ignoring the fact that they don't have to spend MC on it if they don't want to do so!

*Bwack!* Chicken Little's on the other line.

Edited by Nightmare1, 06 December 2016 - 07:13 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Nightmare1, on 06 December 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

Exactly! People are hyperventilating over the fact that they can spend MC on this, while ignoring the fact that they don't have to spend MC on it if they don't want to do so!

*Bwack!* Chicken Little's on the other line.

Dude, go crawl back to Steam already. It's not a paywall if you can do it for free with C-bills.

Seriously? You quote me twice. I'm saying the same thing twice. You agree with me in the first quote and accuse me of saying the opposite in the second?

Get a clue. Your personal bias is clouding your ability to read.

[Nightmare1]

vandalhooch, on 06 December 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

Seriously? You quote me twice. I'm saying the same thing twice. You agree with me in the first quote and accuse me of saying the opposite in the second?

Get a clue. Your personal bias is clouding your ability to read.

Nah, I just didn't notice you had written the first post. Sorry about that!

You have to admit, your second and somewhat cryptic post does leave you open to misinterpretation.

[vandalhooch]

Nightmare1, on 06 December 2016 - 07:12 PM, said:

Nah, I just didn't notice you had written the first post. Sorry about that!

Accepted.

Quote

You have to admit, your second and somewhat cryptic post does leave you open to misinterpretation.

I didn't want to simply repost what I had just posted before. So I shortened it to the highlights.

GXP + C-bills eliminates the need to spend any MC to respec a mech. All of our excess GXP finally has a purpose.

[Nightmare1]

vandalhooch, on 06 December 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

Accepted.

Thank you!

vandalhooch, on 06 December 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

I didn't want to simply repost what I had just posted before. So I shortened it to the highlights.

GXP + C-bills eliminates the need to spend any MC to respec a mech. All of our excess GXP finally has a purpose.

Agreed!

[Jingseng]

N0MAD, on 06 December 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

Seems any feature these days needs to be behind a paywall..
Stock mode..paywall.
1v1 map...paywall.
Respec..paywall.

Stock mode? Not everyone gives a crap about stock mode. In fact, I'd have to say the greater proportion (given the popularity of the oft quoted meta and smurphy and build build build plz) of the base don't care about it. So it makes perfect sense to me that the people who screamed to have it pay for it.

1v1 - I feel the same way. I would say less kind things about 1v1 mentality, but non constructive.

As for respec... well, as usual they didn't need to offer it at all. There are, in fact, games which don't (or which offer only partial respec). And here would be the thing called microtransaction. Whereas before, there were only macro. Cant expect to always get everything exactly as you wanted on a silver platter. This would be where "Git Careful" comes in. Do your proper research and learn to think for yourself and becareful when spending. The whole tree is revealed to you. And you know what the quirk bonuses are; it's not the case that you are sinking in skill points into a new attack skill and don't know if it's good or bad. You know (or can readily find out) what everything does.

[a gaijin]

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

respecs need to be relatively cheap or it defeats the purpose of having different skill trees in the first place

if people cant experiment freely then why even have an open ended skill system? its dumb

not saying respecs should be entirely free but paywalling them behind an MC cost is wrong


it is different because I have hundreds of mechs
but in most other f2p games with respecs I only have like 1-2 characters

that is a HUGE difference

vandalhooch, on 06 December 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

GXP. No pay wall. GXP.

And these are some small examples of why "Free to Play" is an awful business model.

Though I do enjoy MWO I hope it is the very last "free" to play MechWarrior title. If we all pay then no one can complain about a 'pay wall' or make "pay to win" accusations.

I pay quite a bit for colors, camo, mechs I don't feel like grinding C-bills for, buying C-bills because I don't want to grind them for modules, etc, etc, etc.

I think I may never play another free to play game, ever.
And if the next multiplayer MechWarrior game is "free" to play as well, I may just skip multiplayer altogether and stick with the "paid in full" MW5 Mercenaries game.



TLDR: The "Free" to Play Game Business Model is bad for us, the Customers.

My advice for those who want to save $$: pick one mech chassis and just stick with that. You will be its master, and the icing on the cake is that you'll also save money

[N0MAD]

Nightmare1, on 06 December 2016 - 05:52 PM, said:

You're overreacting, lol. Paywalling is the least of anyone's concerns with this game; developer ineptitude is much, much more potent a force for driving players away.

Ludicrous drive LRMs, Nerf-bat, locked chassis, CW/FW flop, hokey-pokey game of balancing, ED, collisions, stability, lack of game modes, etc.

Paywalls? That's really what you're concerned about? MWO has about the best F2P model I've ever seen, with less of a grind than most games I can think of. It's the one thing that the devs have done right, and not only right, but consistently too!

Some people just want everything free though and won't be satisfied unless they get it that way.



I dunno; buy multiple Mechs, I suppose? This is probably going to generate more Mech Bay sales than it actually would respec sales, in my opinion.

Well brother its your opinion about the grind factor in this game being the less of most games, you are entitle to your opinion.
Now i will put my view on why i disagree with this..try keep it short, my example is World of Warships which is currently taking most of my gaming time.
While both games MWO, WoWs follow a similar progression in grind with vehicles and Pilot skill trees, in wows as i lvl ships im taken up a Tech tree where each ship is a beter tier ship, what this means is that with each lvl im fighting beter hardware making each tier a tougher more competitive experience, in MWO this is not so i can buy the highest tier mech so to speak as my first mech i have no challenge left.
Also as i get into higher lvl tech in WoWs my Tier Buckets increase, im playing people with a lot more time experience therefore more challenging, not in MWO, grinding a new mech doesnt mean im playing more experienced people i can and will be playing people with way way less experience/Tech than myself, getting that Lvl 8 BB in WoWs means im not playing some poor seal in his lvl 3 BB. Ya Ya we have tiers in MWO but as shown in Threads on this forum Tier 1s and Tier2s will play Tier4s and posibly 5s depending on pop lvls and release valves.
Also as i lvl in WoWs altho im expected to to earn more and more xp and money to unlock and buy the next ship im earning more xp and money in the higher tiers, where as in a tier 3 BB in a good game im getting say 6-700xp and say 50k money in a tier 8 game for a decent game im getting 2k xp and 150k money and again im getting much beter quality games against beter quality opponents and tech.
Im also getting different maps game modes as i tier up.
Another big difference is that i can tier up ships that have profoundly different playstyles/roles, a DD is a very different vehicle to play both in playstyle and role, and im rewarded in for those roles, in MWO damage is the main deciding factor for your reward, so lights/med etc are all out to do the same thing cause damage, or basically the same role.
Look i can go on and on about the difference grind means in different games, in MWO i find that its the same grind over and over with litle to look forward to after the grind, you play the same people on the same maps for the same reward no mater what mech you grind for next.
This is my experience and my opinion, you are entitle to yours, but dont tell me MWO has the best grind mechanic of any game, i simply do not agree.

Paywalls..i will leave this with you, interesting read..
http://www.gamesbrie...-gamesbriefers/

Also conformation Respec will cost MC unless you want to lose your SP.

Edited by N0MAD, 06 December 2016 - 07:35 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Star Commander Horse, on 06 December 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

And these are some small examples of why "Free to Play" is an awful business model.

Though I do enjoy MWO I hope it is the very last "free" to play MechWarrior title. If we all pay then no one can complain about a 'pay wall' or make "pay to win" accusations.

I pay quite a bit for colors, camo, mechs I don't feel like grinding C-bills for, buying C-bills because I don't want to grind them for modules, etc, etc, etc.

Well, one of those payments is going away. No more modules. You'll be able to get full seismic sensor through unlocking some of the nodes in the sensor tab. It will cost you far less than six million C-bills, unless the decide to up the C-bill cost from the placeholders seen during MechCon.

Quote

I think I may never play another free to play game, ever.
And if the next multiplayer MechWarrior game is "free" to play as well, I may just skip multiplayer altogether and stick with the "paid in full" MW5 Mercenaries game.

TLDR: The "Free" to Play Game Business Model is bad for us, the Customers.

I would agree to saying "Free to Play" can be bad for customers, but it can at times be good as well. There are lots of relatively simple mobile games that I find entertaining enough to play but would never spend any actual money on.

Quote

My advice for those who want to save $$: pick one mech chassis and just stick with that. You will be its master, and the icing on the cake is that you'll also save money

You'll also likely get really, really bored with running the same mech. But, to each their own.

[Barantor]

Ted Wayz, on 06 December 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

I never said you wanted pilot skill trees either. This is a conversation that goes way back to when we first got pilot skill trees and we were like what?

Each mech is like a character? So do you have a different license depending on what car you drive? or if you drive a pickup or a convertible? No.

A logical argument might be based on class of mech, say lights versus assaults being the difference between a car and a semi, which does require a different set of skills. But the overall premise that each mech needs its own skill set...can't go there.

You drive a 68 ford pickup with no disc brakes and 3 on the tree a lot different than a 2016 Corvette. That is the kind of difference I'm talking about. An Awesome is a much different mech than a Wolverine and both are way different than a Locust. Each require a different set of skills. A locust is different than a spider and both of those are in the same weight class too.

I think having different trees for mechs is fine, might work out well, should be interesting at least.

[vandalhooch]

N0MAD, on 06 December 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Edited out all the irrelevant discussion of a game with a completely different mechanic.

Paywalls..i will leave this with you, interesting read..
http://www.gamesbrie...-gamesbriefers/

Article from 2012 that is completely irrelevant as they are discussing "hard paywalls."

Quote

Also conformation Respec will cost MC unless you want to lose your SP.

Or, you can spend the C-bills and use your accumulated GXP/Mech XP to respec and not pay any MC. Therefore, it's not a "hard" paywall.

If you are re-allocating points for a new mech that doesn't have accumulated Mech XP and you've already spent your GXP on other mechs then you are faced with spending MC or redoing the grind. Even then, there is still a way to keep playing the game without spending real life money. Thus, no paywall.

[a gaijin]

vandalhooch, on 06 December 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

I would agree to saying "Free to Play" can be bad for customers, but it can at times be good as well. There are lots of relatively

I should have been more clear in original comment: free to play games on PC are bad for customers.

And for the record, I do not consider "mobile games" games. At least not games worth playing when there is a PC around!

Quote

You'll also likely get really, really bored with running the same mech. But, to each their own.

Some people might. Small attention span?

Personally, I'm not a poké-mech collector so one...or two...mechs is enough for me.
But your point is good: some people will get bored with the same chassis. Another reason "free" to play....really isn't.

[vandalhooch]

Star Commander Horse, on 06 December 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

I should have been more clear in original comment: free to play games on PC are bad for customers.

And for the record, I do not consider "mobile games" games. At least not games worth playing when there is a PC around!



Some people might. Small attention span?

Hardly. WVR-6K currently sitting at 3.7 million XP.

Quote

Personally, I'm not a poké-mech collector so one...or two...mechs is enough for me.
But your point is good: some people will get bored with the same chassis. Another reason "free" to play....really isn't.

[El Bandito]

Nightmare1, on 06 December 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

It's not paywalled though - you can do it with C-bills. This makes it no different from the Cool Shot 9x9, for example. It'll take you a little longer to grind it out, sure. But it's still free.

Not a little longer, a lot longer. Since every SP you invested in the tree will be gone if you do not pay MC.

[WarHippy]

Barantor, on 06 December 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

You can respec for free and lose node points, just have to relevel. If you don't want to relevel those node points then you have to pay some MC.

This is how F2P works in a lot of other games and actually some games don't even let you do that much without paying.

That really isn't acceptable to me, and most F2P games I have played got rid of systems like this because it was bad design. Marvel Heroes for instance used to have items required to respec that had a real money cost(you could also rarely earn them other ways), but they got rid of it for free respecs and you had two free skill trees that you could swap between. It was a really big quality of life improvement for the players. Happy players are kind of a big deal for a F2P developer.

You also have the problem of real money that is invested into current and future XP in the form of premium time and xp-gxp conversions. That really isn't something that should be overlooked because that is essentially double dipping on us. That being said maybe if you have premium time respecs should be free without the loss of skill points? That would be a much easier pill to swallow.

[xengk]

Burke IV, on 06 December 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

So this skill tree, i have to fill it in perfectly first time round or i got to pay to respec? hmmmmmm

Reminds me of my Diablo 2 BNet days.
To get the perfect paladin built, not a single skill point and ability point can be wasted. Must consult the forum/community frequently.
At least now I get to respec with cbill or mc.

[Barantor]

WarHippy, on 06 December 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

That really isn't acceptable to me, and most F2P games I have played got rid of systems like this because it was bad design. Marvel Heroes for instance used to have items required to respec that had a real money cost(you could also rarely earn them other ways), but they got rid of it for free respecs and you had two free skill trees that you could swap between. It was a really big quality of life improvement for the players. Happy players are kind of a big deal for a F2P developer.

You also have the problem of real money that is invested into current and future XP in the form of premium time and xp-gxp conversions. That really isn't something that should be overlooked because that is essentially double dipping on us. That being said maybe if you have premium time respecs should be free without the loss of skill points? That would be a much easier pill to swallow.

That grind to get heroes to 60 in Marvel heroes tho.....

I'm with you on the free respecs with premium time though, even if it was just "X free a month" on respecs it would be something.

[N0MAD]

The other very important thing people need to remember, MWO does not have a big population, PGI needs to be looking at increasing the population if they want to grow and increase revenue.
Skills may be second nature to vets, they most likely have plenty of xp and coin but the new player has nothing.
Think of the newb grinding his way up thru that skill tree, natural to make mistakes or wanting to try something else thinking i really need to respec, their options.. pay real money or losing all their SP and having to regrind that xp again in an unsuitable build.
Cant see that been fun and engaging.
Final say on this..
I dont see this implementation as being a + for this game.
Time will tell.

[Sorbic]

Some folks are more impatient than a hungry cat...