211 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Bud Crue, on 15 December 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Yep. And that is a tough problem to crack. But it is still the problem as I see it as well.

From a mech level, not just an assault, but overall design of mechs as put forth in this game, the Kodiak-3 and maybe the SB are nearly perfect in my eyes. But so too is the ACH (mobility and visible profile being of note), and the Hunchback IIC (hard point location being especially good).

How to bring them down to mortal levels without negative quirks or remaking them as something else? I have no idea.

Nonetheless as long as they have no equivalent on the IS side, folks on the IS side are going to feel like they are fighting an uphill battle. And in a supposedly competitive environment where all mechs are supposed to be of equivalent value regardless of their role (according to the devs)...that's a problem, regardless of why or how it came to occur. If PGI doesn't figure something out to address it, then I believe this mode is well and truly fu...ed.

The issue is, PGi is also still bad at making quirks, remember the dragon when it suddenly had god quirks? its either overdone or non existent, they lack the skills to finetune properly to the degree where the chassis usefullness doesn't acts binary.

But even at the end of this balance when it would eb achieved we need a system to educate the bottom skill players or distribute them better, because there is an undenyable non tech related difference too.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 December 2016 - 07:33 AM.

[SuperFunkTron]

Lily from animove, on 15 December 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

But even at the end of this balance when it would eb achieved we need a system to educate the bottom skill players or distribute them better, because there is an undenyable non tech related difference too.

The training academy a long with a separate tier system would be a great way to implement both training and better match making. There could be progressively more advanced techniques (torso twist and such) that are rated as skills needed to qualify to higher tiers. Proving mastery in those abilities could be a sort of gate to unlock before allowing someone to move to a higher tier level for quick play or faction play.

Of course it'll be a headache for those who are advanced, but I'd rather deal with an hour in the academy and get better balanced matches at a higher tier than continue to worry about the population dying off due to mismatching of player skill.

[AbyssalTyrant]

Agree or disagree with dane he has a lot of good points . Point being something has to be done otherwise we will be stuck in the cw update->two weeks later everyone quits-> cw update loop.

[WarHippy]

AbyssalTyrant, on 15 December 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

Agree or disagree with dane he has a lot of good points . Point being something has to be done otherwise we will be stuck in the cw update->two weeks later everyone quits-> cw update loop.

Eh, I wouldn't say he really had any good points. Every point he might of had was essentially a matter of perspective and bias that he accused Clan players of while completely ignoring his own perspective and bias problems. That and it was hard to listen to him repeatedly saying caveat wrong.

[SuperFunkTron]

The video provides some very good points. Based on his conclusion of IS mechs being underpowered in relation to Clan mechs, I think we are stuck in a dead zone until we see what the new experience system brings in. PGI said that a lot of underpowered mechs will be made more viable through the improvements that will be made available.

I know a lot of people look at FW as the competitive mode, but the implication of the name of the mode is that different collections of ideology and technology are fighting each other for the control of planets.

A lot of ideas, both large and small have been presented, but until we see how the new mech upgrade system will play out, it will be tough to gauge the impact on the mode.

In the mean time, we need to find other solutions that would ideally allow us to keep a clan vs IS mode, but start to level the playing field for the IS.

I am most partial to developing the characteristics of each house and clan personality and preferred fight style. This could be accomplished with previously mentioned mech restrictions based on faction or we could even consider giving certain positive and negative quirks based on the faction chosen. An example of this would be to quirk wolf mechs with a little bit of extra agility as that is their fight style while reducing another aspect of their play, and maybe quirk the jaguars with less agility but extra durability. Further, the benefits/drawbacks could be attached to mechs that are more typical of said faction. This is a very rough example, but it would start adding benefit costs and giving meaning to the factions that would encourage the use of certain groups that suit play style more. On the IS side Davion could receive AC buffs (ROF, or increased ammo) while Kurita could receive buffs and nerfs that accentuate their lore fight style. This idea is definitely a little more complicated but would immediately present incentives to join certain factions based on perk preference and play style.

That is one of the few ways I see we can possibly add some balancing factors between factions until unique combat features like melee could be implemented.

Or, if all goes well, the mech customization patch will solve a lot of issues without needing to address anything major and allow PGI to work undisturbed on new features

[1453 R]

The issue with things like Dane's video isn't necessarily the facts of what he's presenting, but the average player response to those facts.

Most reasonable Clan players will agree that there's still work to be done on inter-tech balance. There are frequent balances discussions on it, lots of ideas for tweaking things into parity. A lot of the ForumWarrior issue is that some players, due to the typical ForumWarrior hyperamplification of issues and the effects of runaway confirmation bias, figure that the only response to the tech imbalance is to

because they're mad, frustrated, and have spent years now trying to fight against the imbalance to what seems to be no avail. I get that. But it's still the wrong answer.


Clan players snap back against this because flipping the imbalance is not eliminating the imbalance. Flip the imbalance, and a year later Clan players will be the ones who're clamoring that Sphere tech needs to be

, and we'll be right back where we started.


Ideally we want to avoid this completely by actually equalizing the tech bases, in the different-but-equivalent manner we were told would happen in the first place. An analysis of weapons shows that with the exception of some Clan energy and a handful of munitions weapons, we're doing pretty good. The remaining troubles are deeper in the system and harder to solve, especially with an easy-peasy broad stroke solution some idiot on the boards dreams up in five minutes and claims Will Save MWO Forever™

Equalizing the tech bases is a necessary first step. Dane's answer of just giving everybody everything is very much the wrong answer because most Sphere players want to be Sphere players, not Clan guys in the wrong colors. They want to pilot their favorites, their iconics, their collections of Sphere 'Mechs, and they also want to have a fair chance in a fight with the Clans.

So let's see if we can give them that, rather than just telling them to sell all their Sphere 'Mechs, or giving in to the Johnny Zs of the world and resorting to



Because remember, folks: nuclear proliferation is banned by international treaty.

Edited by 1453 R, 15 December 2016 - 03:06 PM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Monkey Lover, on 14 December 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

There is no way to fix a 1 bucket system.

Basically remove the patch and start over with what everyone asked them to do for the last year.

"Everyone" is not just you. What most people wanted, first and foremost, was diversity of game modes in FP. We got that, and frankly we got it sooner than I thought we would.

I don't see how the new system is any worse than the previous one for loyalist lore nerds. Yes, previously you could fight on multiple fronts, but there were no matches there, so it didn't matter. 99% of the matches have been IS vs Clan for months now. You have lost exactly nothing from the current patch - and gained multiple new game modes plus 15 tons of dropweight. What are you complaining about?

[Elizander]

I prefer this queue system to the old one. That said, if you put a Top 1-3 prize for units on each side (IS / Clan) it might even out if the reward is nice enough that good units who don't want to clash with top units in same side for rankings decide to just be on different sides and both be #1.

[Pers0nne]

Playing A LOT of other multiplayer games, it's mindbogling to see the lack of matchmaking rules for that game.

FW is trash because it doesn't even try to match premade against premade and as long as don't fix that FW will be trash.

Fix your **** PGI.

[LordNothing]

i mentioned this elsewhere, but buff the living crap out of the bushie. so many top mechs are clan, we need some insanely op is mechs to balance it out.

[Lyoto Machida]

SuperFunkTron, on 15 December 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

I'm surprised that no one has yet suggested melee as an incentive to use IS in this thread. What was really one of the original extra abilities was the fact that at very close range, an IS mech could punch and kick its way to advantage! This would also require a fall down mechanic finally be implemented in the game, but imagine how the IS's shorter ranges would be complimented by their ability to attack the clans in a way they could not be attacked back. Even if we wanted to allow clan mechs to melee in cases where they had arms or fists built for it, those melees could come with a steep c-bill cost that reflects their gross aversion to that kind of combat.

No, this is not an immediate solution, but it is one that should start getting worked on as soon as possible. Further specializing the play styles of IS vs Clan would be great in encouraging not only different tactics and approaches to to the battle, but also add some potential balance with providing a "unique" ability to the side that seems to be in need of help!

The losing side should get a blimp that comes into to help out once some criteria is met:

[JaxRiot]

McMurl, on 14 December 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

So i really enjoy playing Faction warfare, and this most recent patch made FW pretty awesome. Problem is, it seems like the clans are more organized or just doing better all together, but i dont think this is because of balance. More tonnage, most mechs can take more damage per ton and their weapons are great for applying their full damage in a more accurate fashion, etc. Clans only really have a (small) range advantage and can fit more weapons due to less tonnage per heavy weapon.

What can be done to keep the IS interested? 10 v 12? 48 mechs vs 36 mechs? it really just seems the IS just isnt as organized as the clans, so they keep losing

To me, this is normal. It always goes like this whenever a new mech comes out.

Most of the top Units and a lot of good players are Mercs.

They are Mercs because they buy the new mechs that come out, and can jump to the Faction that has the new current mech pack.

When they move together like that, they take large chunk of the 'better' players and Units with them, leaving behind the Pugs and Newish players to fend for themselves.

It happens like this every time, and it is very noticeable whenever FP draws a lot of people in at the same time a new mech comes out.

When the next IS mech comes out, and they have some kind of event at the same time, we will see the reverse happen.

It all seems like the same ol same ol to me.

[Deathlike]

The short answer to the question is really simple... you have to balance the game.

For having at least 2 (2.5) years after the addition of the Clans, too much hubris over time by our balance overlord has created a divide that kinda flip flopped a little, but mostly sided with the Clans for too long. Whether it is indifference or not, it doesn't matter - the inability to recognize imbalance is the core issue, and it would take actual time and effort to work this out (and it would have to be on a monthly to bi-monthly basis (or it's not going to work at all).

To answer one "clever" question...

darqsyde, on 14 December 2016 - 10:54 PM, said:

Simple suggestion...force Stock Mech Mode for FW.

Yes... most IS mechs have SHS by default. Good times will be had by Clanners. Good job.

[Deathlike]

Tristan Winter, on 15 December 2016 - 02:39 AM, said:

It would be interesting to know how many people attribute the problems to IS vs Clans imbalance and how many people attribute it to other, coincidental factors (many good units just happen to be Clan units, etc)

Well, it's a little of both, though moreso on the former.

The other problem though is some people's inability to understand balance in this game.

Quote

Yeah, it's weird that people aren't trying to be constructive anymore. It's almost as if they don't believe that PGI is reading the constructive posts. Anyway, let's talk about something else. Anyone know when the next FP Roundtable is being arranged? Apparently, the Bucket Roundtable was just the first of several.

Heh.

Weird? Sounds like a feature.

Yes, 1 roundtable, and that's it. Discussion over (maybe another to 60-90 days because.. winter is coming).

[Lightfoot]

1453 R, on 15 December 2016 - 03:04 PM, said:

Because remember, folks: nuclear proliferation is banned by international treaty.

That's Ivy Mike, the first H-Bomb. It was supposed to to be 11 megatons, but it unexpectedly fused what was deemed to be inert deuterium and was actually 17 megatons. This is where you see the observers with goggles getting hit by a pretty good shockwave because they ended up being quite close. It led the Soviet Union to build/drop the 50 megaton Tsar Bomba in which you see Khrushchev boasting it could have been 100 megatons if they had wanted it.

[Lily from animove]

WarHippy, on 15 December 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

Eh, I wouldn't say he really had any good points. Every point he might of had was essentially a matter of perspective and bias that he accused Clan players of while completely ignoring his own perspective and bias problems. That and it was hard to listen to him repeatedly saying caveat wrong.

that kidna describes it, and i am also too lazy today (cuz friday) to explain all the things he is wrong in, in detail.

On the surface the points sound good, and logically, but a deep analyse would show why this logic is not the true logic.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 December 2016 - 05:17 AM.

[Deltree Zero]

Question:
What Can Be Done To Keep The IS Playing FW?

Answer:

Fix massive tech imbalance. Clan tech is OP and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot, a liar, or both. Period. Massive game imbalance is only fun for people who do not enjoy a contest of skill. People uninterested in a contest of skill can go click an instant win button labeled "CLAN" somewhere far away from me and receive their unearned pleasure. A game (to me) means you win some, you lose some, you improve. Rinse, repeat. Shared fun is had along the way as you learn with other people from actions you take and choices you make.

Remove mercenary units from the game because they all follow the current exploitable instant win condition which only ever exists via PGI's illogical and incorrect design choices AND the lack of desire in most MWO players to enjoy a fair challenge. This player exploitation of poor decisions made by PGI breaks the way MWO creates a match for players to enjoy because the mercenary units all move IS or Clan based on where the current exploit exists. If everyone becomes a clanner today, there will be no one left in IS to fight tomorrow. Simple math.

Make being a member of any particular house-clan have value in MWO. FW 4.1 strips any reason to be aligned with anything but Clan-IS from the game. The total watering down of houses and clans after YEARS OF MWO is a sickeningly pathetic choice from PGI. Lazy.

Find a way to absorb pugs which includes them and allows them to advance in skill and knowledge so new players can join MWO (new players in mwo = good thing) but keeps them from pretty much completely ruining advanced game modes for hardcore players.

Make taking a particular planet in FW have strategic value. The minuscule MC "rewards" for taking a planet are laughable (and borderline insulting) in a game about galaxy-sized military conquest of planets via people fighting over control of these planets in huge war robots. A moist towelette does not quench a dying mans thirst.

Hire new people to work at PGI who understand game design better and understand their player base more.

[Anubis Ka]

Let IS use Clan mechs salvaged in FW after paying a small repair fee .Or allow omnitech for IS.
Stop Mercs from playing clan side

And Russ, start paying attention to the player base not just the butt kissing clanners.

PS: When do we get that ugly minimap icon above mechs toggle so I can turn it off ?

Off to playing Titanfall for now until mwo gets better.

[Lightfoot]

Titanfall is just a shadow cast by the light of MechWarrior... meaning MechWarrior has great depth, making it harder to balance, but more rewarding in the long run.

Mercs fight for Clans? Not allowed in Faction Play. Doesn't mean a player unit couldn't develop an alternate Clan element, but Mercs don't fight for the Clans. Not even the Merc Unit, "Wolf's Dragoons" would fight for the Clans even though they are offshoots of Clan Wolf. They are bound to the MRBC on Outreach.

On the other hand, both Kell Hounds and Wolf's Dragoons had access to Clan Tech. So there you go, Mercs have Clan Tech, but do not fight for Clan factions. So I guess House Davion has to hire Kell Hounds and Wolf's Dragoons to field Clan mechs vs Clan factions.


edit

Edited by Lightfoot, 16 December 2016 - 01:56 PM.

[Lupis Volk]

IS vs Clam balance is the progenitor to all our FW problems. The crux of the issue is Merc units refusing to leave their Clammer safe spaces because the IS is a losing battle, game wise and balance wise. Why play the inherently inferior side where i can play the superior side and have those who play it constantly fight to keep their "i win button"