211 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Well, you have to find a way to keep anyone playing CW first of all.

[Alan Davion]

FupDup, on 17 December 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

Well, you have to find a way to keep anyone playing CW first of all.

Which goes right back to the problems in the very core game mechanics the game has faced since day one, as well as the introduction of superior clan tech which was far too early it seems.

The only way to even START approaching anything resembling balance at this point is to start by giving the IS Tech Level 2.

Light Fusion Engines, ER small/medium lasers, the UAC/LBX ACs, Streak SRMs, and whatever else there is in Tech 2 that I can't remember right now.

[Davers]

JaxRiot, on 15 December 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

To me, this is normal. It always goes like this whenever a new mech comes out.

Most of the top Units and a lot of good players are Mercs.

They are Mercs because they buy the new mechs that come out, and can jump to the Faction that has the new current mech pack.

When they move together like that, they take large chunk of the 'better' players and Units with them, leaving behind the Pugs and Newish players to fend for themselves.

It happens like this every time, and it is very noticeable whenever FP draws a lot of people in at the same time a new mech comes out.

When the next IS mech comes out, and they have some kind of event at the same time, we will see the reverse happen.

It all seems like the same ol same ol to me.

So, basically any attempt to have a persistent CW map is rendered moot by PGI's mech sales and by mercenaries?

[Novakaine]

Basically and that needs to stop.
Personally I say lock everyone in whatever for six months.
Be it IS or Clans.
If you want to play with your new shinies then do it in QP.
A bit draconian, but it would help FW.

[MischiefSC]

Ghogiel, on 17 December 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

It's a substaintial reason 90% of the playerbase had boycotted it even then because there was no split.

Now I see tons of potatoes crying about IS pugs getting pwnt by more organised clan groups and there is no reason to play IS, because all the large groups get to jump queue to the front, which makes an imbalance in the player skill disparity and any hard work they would do in the queue is "undone".
That mechanic has been in CW since near the very start, but it's good to finally see people wake up to the fact it could never and never will work without split queues, and condensing the factions had zero bering on that fact what so ever.

Law of large numbers would fix it with higher population and if unit populations are balanced, especially if Loyalists are the majority, it's way less of an issue.

It's become an issue because only idiots are loyalists and population imbalance is constant and tech balance makes players switch sides.

[Snazzy Dragon]

We could ban LRMs from FW, for a start, until they are reworked into being actual weapons instead of long range memes.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 17 December 2016 - 07:03 PM.

[QuantumButler]

Novakaine, on 17 December 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Basically and that needs to stop.
Personally I say lock everyone in whatever for six months.
Be it IS or Clans.
If you want to play with your new shinies then do it in QP.
A bit draconian, but it would help FW.

I agree, FW should be taken out back and shot, which is what your suggestion is tantamount to.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Lykaon, on 17 December 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

However Snord's Irregulars were of Clan origin so replace Kellhounds with Snord's Irregulars and they would be correct

Snords Irregulars broke with Clans and went down their own rabbit hole chasing lostech artifacts... only Natasha Kerensky went back when the Clans showed up & her Company stayed behind, so no Mercs were really ever affliated with the Clans.

[Novakaine]

Got a better idea Rocket?

[Jep Jorgensson]

No need to worry. After PGI nerfs the Clans and our tonnage again, the mercs will switch sides again and everything will seesaw back in the IS's favor.

[Novakaine]

Jep Jorgensson, on 17 December 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

No need to worry. After PGI nerfs the Clans and our tonnage again, the mercs will switch sides again and everything will seesaw back in the IS's favor.

This guy get's it.

[Alan Davion]

Jep Jorgensson, on 17 December 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

No need to worry. After PGI nerfs the Clans and our tonnage again, the mercs will switch sides again and everything will seesaw back in the IS's favor.

Somehow I doubt that will change much, if anything.

The whole point of the Clans is doing more with less, and their superior technology further aids that.

All the top units will still be running with the clans in order to avoid actually fighting each other and farming the people dumb enough to actually try and play CW/FW.

The big problem is still all the core game mechanics that are still broken since day 1 of the game. Most worryingly the heat scale.

Because PGI didn't scale up the heat system to coincide with the much faster FPS gameplay style, that's a huge advantage in favor of the clans being able to boat lasers out the wazoo. Which again, is due to their better double heat sinks.

All the changes PGI keeps making to the actual heat sinks don't mean jack-**** because the heat scale itself still allows lasers to be boated in ways they were never meant to be. Lasers and heatsinks are the lightest combination of weapons possible in the game, and therefore the most advantageous.

Chop the total heat capacity in half, make the lasers deliver their heat about twice as fast as they do now, and I guarantee 90% of the problems facing the game will be nipped in the bud overnight.

[QuantumButler]

Alan Davion, on 18 December 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

Somehow I doubt that will change much, if anything.

The whole point of the Clans is doing more with less, and their superior technology further aids that.

All the top units will still be running with the clans in order to avoid actually fighting each other and farming the people dumb enough to actually try and play CW/FW.

The big problem is still all the core game mechanics that are still broken since day 1 of the game. Most worryingly the heat scale.

Because PGI didn't scale up the heat system to coincide with the much faster FPS gameplay style, that's a huge advantage in favor of the clans being able to boat lasers out the wazoo. Which again, is due to their better double heat sinks.

All the changes PGI keeps making to the actual heat sinks don't mean jack-**** because the heat scale itself still allows lasers to be boated in ways they were never meant to be. Lasers and heatsinks are the lightest combination of weapons possible in the game, and therefore the most advantageous.

Chop the total heat capacity in half, make the lasers deliver their heat about twice as fast as they do now, and I guarantee 90% of the problems facing the game will be nipped in the bud overnight.

I see you desire a return to the bad old days when a gauss rifle and 4 small lasers was a typical assault mech build because heat dissipation was so garbage.

[Alan Davion]

QuantumButler, on 18 December 2016 - 05:01 AM, said:

I see you desire a return to the bad old days when a gauss rifle and 4 small lasers was a typical assault mech build because heat dissipation was so garbage.

Where did I ever say anything about heat dissipation? It's the heat delivery that's always been the problem.

Did you never play any of the old MW games? Particularly MW2/Mercs? Lasers delivered their heat in the blink of an eye instead of upwards of 2 flipping seconds like some lasers in MWO.

Dissipation was never a problem in MW2/Mercs, even when you loaded up on large pulse lasers. Especially IS large pulse. You'd fire a couple bursts, spike your heat and keep moving cause the enemy mechs had the same chance of missing you as you had missing them.

MW2/Mercs forced you to learn fire control because of two reasons. 1, you had a chance of missing your target, and 2, faster heat delivery meaning if you missed and kept firing, trying to walk your shots on target, you were going to overheat in short order. Granted this was because in MW2/Mercs the lasers fired in bolts, but depending on your mech build you couldn't fire more than a few lasers without your heat spiking to the point of shutting you down.

With the lasers in MWO firing in full-on beams with an actual "time on target requirement", you have the heat spread out across a much longer period of time, this allows the system to be gamed to the point you can fire all the lasers on your mech 2-3 times before risking a shutdown. The beams also allow you to actually walk your fire onto your target far more effectively.

Simply taking the table top heat scale and dropping it into an FPS game as PGI clearly did does not work. Because of the FPS games much faster pace, the heat scale must be similarly accelerated otherwise you get what we have been dealing with in MWO from day one.

Does that help you see the point I'm making?

[QuantumButler]

Alan Davion, on 18 December 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

Where did I ever say anything about heat dissipation? It's the heat delivery that's always been the problem.

Did you never play any of the old MW games? Particularly MW2/Mercs? Lasers delivered their heat in the blink of an eye instead of upwards of 2 flipping seconds like some lasers in MWO.

Dissipation was never a problem in MW2/Mercs, even when you loaded up on large pulse lasers. Especially IS large pulse. You'd fire a couple bursts, spike your heat and keep moving cause the enemy mechs had the same chance of missing you as you had missing them.

MW2/Mercs forced you to learn fire control because of two reasons. 1, you had a chance of missing your target, and 2, faster heat delivery meaning if you missed and kept firing, trying to walk your shots on target, you were going to overheat in short order. Granted this was because in MW2/Mercs the lasers fired in bolts, but depending on your mech build you couldn't fire more than a few lasers without your heat spiking to the point of shutting you down.

With the lasers in MWO firing in full-on beams with an actual "time on target requirement", you have the heat spread out across a much longer period of time, this allows the system to be gamed to the point you can fire all the lasers on your mech 2-3 times before risking a shutdown. The beams also allow you to actually walk your fire onto your target far more effectively.

Simply taking the table top heat scale and dropping it into an FPS game as PGI clearly did does not work. Because of the FPS games much faster pace, the heat scale must be similarly accelerated otherwise you get what we have been dealing with in MWO from day one.

Does that help you see the point I'm making?

If we actually had the TT heat scale your heat capacity would never go above 30 no matter what, so PGI ****ed that up too. Also running at close to 100% would actually incur severe penalties towards running your mech.

I feel that they could have adapted that system into something fun instead of the current vastly flawed system, but cutting current capacity in half really wouldn't help things and would just promote a return to early beta style builds where all the high heat guns are never used.

[Imperius]

Alan Davion, on 17 December 2016 - 03:31 PM, said:

Which goes right back to the problems in the very core game mechanics the game has faced since day one, as well as the introduction of superior clan tech which was far too early it seems.

The only way to even START approaching anything resembling balance at this point is to start by giving the IS Tech Level 2.

Light Fusion Engines, ER small/medium lasers, the UAC/LBX ACs, Streak SRMs, and whatever else there is in Tech 2 that I can't remember right now.

I think you mean level 3
Oh yeah and that thing that doesn't exist until it fits someone's arguments against my MK II... timeline

Ohhhhhhhhhh well

[Alan Davion]

Imperius, on 18 December 2016 - 06:40 AM, said:

I think you mean level 3
Oh yeah and that thing that doesn't exist until it fits someone's arguments against my MK II... timeline

Ohhhhhhhhhh well

I use tech level in reference to what we have available in the game.

Tech level 1 is basic IS stuff, as in no ER or Pulse weapons for example.

Tech level 2 is Clan stuff. Also the equivalent IS weaponry, as in IS has all the same ER, Pulse, Ultra, etc weapons.

Tech level 3 is what you need if you ever have a hope in hell of seeing your oh-so-precious MCMK2.

All the advanced weapons and tech like ER Pulse for Clans, X Pulse for IS, Hardened Armor, Reflective Armor, yadda yadda.

We have a better chance of simply getting IS tech 2 than we have of getting IS or Clan tech 3.

[JaxRiot]

Davers, on 17 December 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

So, basically any attempt to have a persistent CW map is rendered moot by PGI's mech sales and by mercenaries?

Well of course.

How can there be a persistent map when the majority of the Units (especially the top Units) can switch sides practically at will?

All it would take is a new mech release to turn the tide in a major way.

And with the way Match Maker favors Groups, and will always put Groups to the front of a Que, it becomes very easy for the faction with the most Groups to farm Pugs and easily have the most wins.

As soon as one match ends, they just que right back up and get right back in the front of the que again.

And which Career path has the most Units/Groups? Yep, you guessed it... Mercs.

And which Faction currently has the most Mercs? Yep, right again... Clans

Edited by JaxRiot, 18 December 2016 - 07:41 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

Jep Jorgensson, on 17 December 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

No need to worry. After PGI nerfs the Clans and our tonnage again, the mercs will switch sides again and everything will seesaw back in the IS's favor.

But according to the IS players,. Clans will still be op.......it seems that most players just don't get how strong IS mechs are if PLAYED correctly...

Edited by Jon Gotham, 18 December 2016 - 11:28 AM.

[FupDup]

QuantumButler, on 18 December 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

If we actually had the TT heat scale your heat capacity would never go above 30 no matter what, so PGI ****ed that up too. Also running at close to 100% would actually incur severe penalties towards running your mech.

...

The TT heat system would also mean that energy boats could be built heat-neutral with incredible ease. TT lets you have quadruple Clan ERPPCs with zero heat penalties ever (30 DHS, see stock Hellstar).

That's the part that people forget about when talking about TT's heat. The reason they can get away with high penalties is because you can very, very easily avoid those penalties by adding more DHS to your build. In MWO, however, you're 100% guaranteed to eventually (or very quickly, depending on the build) overheat on anything that isn't an AC/5 or Gauss boat.

Despite the lack of penalties below 100%, MWO's heat system is actually more punitive than TT's because TT lets you NEVER overheat if you build your mech the right way.

Edited by FupDup, 18 December 2016 - 10:17 AM.