211 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Well the hellstar would go full apocalypse when firing it's 4 guns at once
The issue is simple that you need to scale 10sec into 0.1sec - see Solaris 7 rules - same hellstar would be heat neutral only when firing a single ERPPC per 2.5 sec round.

Exactly the same mechanic that was some how used in MW3 - shoot overheat cooldown

Made right it could be a very cool mechanic, when heat is crippling your movement for a brief period

[Imperius]

Alan Davion, on 18 December 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

I use tech level in reference to what we have available in the game.

Tech level 1 is basic IS stuff, as in no ER or Pulse weapons for example.

Tech level 2 is Clan stuff. Also the equivalent IS weaponry, as in IS has all the same ER, Pulse, Ultra, etc weapons.

Tech level 3 is what you need if you ever have a hope in hell of seeing your oh-so-precious MCMK2.

All the advanced weapons and tech like ER Pulse for Clans, X Pulse for IS, Hardened Armor, Reflective Armor, yadda yadda.

We have a better chance of simply getting IS tech 2 than we have of getting IS or Clan tech 3.

http://www.sarna.net...Equipment_Lists

I assume we're are talking about rules level. That's why I said I think 3

Anyway not gonna happen they can't add new weapons to MWO because (the original programmer left ZERO comment notes)

Edited by Imperius, 18 December 2016 - 10:31 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Imperius, on 18 December 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...Equipment_Lists

I assume we're are talking about rules level. That's why I said I think 3

Anyway not gonna happen they can't add new weapons to MWO because (the original programmer left ZERO comment notes)

Then the game is well and truly f***** because unless the IS gets the remaining ER/Pulse/Ultra/Streak weapons and whatever else there is to equalize them with Clans the tech imbalance will cause the eventual and complete death of the game.

[Barantor]

So here is an analysis of the problems as I see them.

1. Clans had to be introduced as there is a fan base that would buy them and PGI wanted their money to continue the game.

2. Clan tech is by default unbalanced vs IS tech, it is in all the lore and every previous MW game.

3. Clans vs IS is going to be unbalanced because of the imbalance in the tech.

4. Some players do not like to play as clans, thus will be at a tech imbalance.

So the folks that don't like to play clans are at a tech imbalance, folks that don't care either way will probably play clan as they consider those the better mechs. Clan loyalists will always play clan mechs even if they were balanced.

To me there are two trains of thought in a way to fix this.

1. Don't put Clan mechs against IS mechs. Separate the FW where clanners fight clanners in clan space and IS vs IS in the sphere. To do this they would have to do something like have it be the Federated Commonwealth vs the rest and have Crusader vs Warden for the clanners. Have special events with the invasion itself rather than it always happening. This would appease some folks, but I think would anger some that like the IS vs Clanners.

2. Balance Clans vs IS mechs. This is obviously the harder route and might require some very lore-breaking moves even in regards to previous MW games. In my opinion the only way to do this is advance the timeline a good deal and have IS omnis whose xl engines work like clan ones and possibly make normal IS xl engines have a different type of system as well.

Or... we can keep going like we are and have very lopsided FW... *shrug*

[C E Dwyer]

maybe make the win conditions harder for clan, so that planets fall less quickly is an option perhaps, it's really that or P.G.I continue to gimp clan mechs, tonnage differences are not going to make any difference with PUG 'teams'

An alternative is maybe I.S people getting a clue and not rushing to reinforce one at a time, but reforming so no farmer has a crop of potatoes to farm

Edited by Cathy, 18 December 2016 - 10:47 AM.

[Freeman 52]

Cathy, on 18 December 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

maybe make the win conditions harder for clan, so that planets fall less quickly is an option perhaps

This is actually an interesting idea for the current population/skill imbalance. And you can easily make up a narrative justification: home advantage, better logistics, etc.

Maybe a 2:1 ratio would work: even if Clans win more matches that may not give them the planet.

[Barantor]

Freeman 52, on 18 December 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

This is actually an interesting idea for the current population/skill imbalance. And you can easily make up a narrative justification: home advantage, better logistics, etc.

Maybe a 2:1 ratio would work: even if Clans win more matches that may not give them the planet.

It could even be tied into the bidding system for a planet that the clans do as they handicap each other in order to have the rights to a planet.

[Mawai]

I honestly don't get the folks who claim that the clan mechs aren't better and blame the players for underperformance on the IS side of FW.

Take a look at YOUR numbers when playing IS and clan mechs to the best of your ability.

Make sure you compare the best clan mechs ... Arctic Cheetah, Stormcrow, HBK IIC, Timberwolf, Kodiak (maybe DW and MAD IIC as well) and the best available IS mechs.

If you play just as well which mechs play better when optimized for your play style? Clan or IS? Which mechs last longer, are more maneuverable/faster for a given tonnage, carry more weapons because they are lighter and require fewer crit slots (or have a ton of heat sinks to compensate?). Which mechs have a longer effective range? There are some trade offs in heat management but that most requires fire discipline and they are compensated with a higher alpha.

I have a selection of both clan and IS mechs .. I play both .. and for my admittedly modest level of skill .. the clan mechs can be more effective on average than my IS counterparts for the reasons cited above.

I freely admit that this is one data point among many ... maybe I am incorrect ... only PGI might have the data to be able to untangle the balance issues but the first step is to honestly look at the numbers and everyone's play experience and try to assess the relative effectiveness in real matches of clan and IS mechs. (including relative pilot quality if there is sufficient data available to do so).

[FallingAce]

Not that it would change much, but

QUIT PENALIZING PEOPLE FOR PLAYING I.S.

10% Smoke Jag bonus ? Realy?

[FupDup]

Karl Streiger, on 18 December 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

Well the hellstar would go full apocalypse when firing it's 4 guns at once
The issue is simple that you need to scale 10sec into 0.1sec - see Solaris 7 rules - same hellstar would be heat neutral only when firing a single ERPPC per 2.5 sec round.

Exactly the same mechanic that was some how used in MW3 - shoot overheat cooldown

Made right it could be a very cool mechanic, when heat is crippling your movement for a brief period

I built a "Ghetto Hellstar" in MW3 with the same loadout on a Daishi. It instantly shuts down, but it dissipates heat so quickly that it instantly starts back up and is already back to 0% heat by the time its ERPPCs are done reloading.

[Karl Streiger]

FupDup, on 18 December 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

I built a "Ghetto Hellstar" in MW3 with the same loadout on a Daishi. It instantly shuts down, but it dissipates heat so quickly that it instantly starts back up and is already back to 0% heat by the time its ERPPCs are done reloading.

Yep but think about this very basic math and how it would influence MWO - no heat scale but also alpha warrior gone for good
The number of heatsinks become important again - actually the main gain are created by the 10 free heatsinks anything else is sub optimal - this would change drastically.

If you ask me to have some builds that are virtually heat neutral is a adequate price not to need Heatscale anymore

[Ghogiel]

MischiefSC, on 17 December 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

Law of large numbers would fix it with higher population and if unit populations are balanced, especially if Loyalists are the majority, it's way less of an issue.

It's become an issue because only idiots are loyalists and population imbalance is constant and tech balance makes players switch sides.

It was always an issue, it's not just become a thing last week.
Having most of the player base resign it to "F that" because groups/units are an imbalance on both the micro and macro level and having no way to balance them (ie split queue/matchmaker) and "git gud" to anyone who questioned that dogma ensured its fate. It was never going to have large numbers once people tried it and got farmed a couple times.

Balancing unit pop doesn't matter either when they are and were an imbalance. Balancing the unit pops would probably matter on the macro level AFTER the game mode was not farmed dead and became known to be complete and utter trash for solo players. It's putting the cart before the horse to go with large numbers by not going with the large damn numbers, hanging them out to dry, where else is the pop to ensure these large numbers balancing things supposed to come from?

Edited by Ghogiel, 18 December 2016 - 02:52 PM.

[QuantumButler]

Barantor, on 18 December 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

So here is an analysis of the problems as I see them.

1. Clans had to be introduced as there is a fan base that would buy them and PGI wanted their money to continue the game.

2. Clan tech is by default unbalanced vs IS tech, it is in all the lore and every previous MW game.

3. Clans vs IS is going to be unbalanced because of the imbalance in the tech.

4. Some players do not like to play as clans, thus will be at a tech imbalance.

So the folks that don't like to play clans are at a tech imbalance, folks that don't care either way will probably play clan as they consider those the better mechs. Clan loyalists will always play clan mechs even if they were balanced.

To me there are two trains of thought in a way to fix this.

1. Don't put Clan mechs against IS mechs. Separate the FW where clanners fight clanners in clan space and IS vs IS in the sphere. To do this they would have to do something like have it be the Federated Commonwealth vs the rest and have Crusader vs Warden for the clanners. Have special events with the invasion itself rather than it always happening. This would appease some folks, but I think would anger some that like the IS vs Clanners.

2. Balance Clans vs IS mechs. This is obviously the harder route and might require some very lore-breaking moves even in regards to previous MW games. In my opinion the only way to do this is advance the timeline a good deal and have IS omnis whose xl engines work like clan ones and possibly make normal IS xl engines have a different type of system as well.

Or... we can keep going like we are and have very lopsided FW... *shrug*

You may find it shocking that To many thousands of people who would actually want a mechwarrior game, the first clan mech designs [Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf, Mad Dog, et al] are *the* most iconic 'mechs, and they do not give two ****s about battlemasters or hunchbacks or warhammers.

I know several people in my unit who couldn't care about the upcoming HBS battletech game simply because it doesn't have clans.

So just keep in mind PGI *had* to introduce clans and from a business perspective was right to do so.

[Alan Davion]

QuantumButler, on 18 December 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

You may find it shocking that To many thousands of people who would actually want a mechwarrior game, the first clan mech designs [Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf, Mad Dog, et al] are *the* most iconic 'mechs, and they do not give two ****s about battlemasters or hunchbacks or warhammers.

I know several people in my unit who couldn't care about the upcoming HBS battletech game simply because it doesn't have clans.

So just keep in mind PGI *had* to introduce clans and from a business perspective was right to do so.

No body has been saying the Clans *never* should have come into the game. Obviously the Clans had to come in at some point as a business objective.

But on the flip side of that coin, PGI might have been better served to delay the Clan introduction until they'd gotten most of the IS stuff into the game and balanced against each other.

You know... The way the original table top game did things? And the way the new HBS game is doing things? AND the way MW5:M is looking, being set between 3015 and 3049.

You don't start a game like this, and just immediately throw a giant a** monkey wrench into everything by introducing the OPAF Clan mechs after only a year, or however long it was after the game started and the Clans eventually came in.

Because we'll apparently never get the remaining weapons needed in order to bring the IS even close to equivalent tech level with the Clans, the Clans will continue to reign supreme in this game and eventually people are just going to say "f*** it" and not play anymore after they've gotten tired of being stomped to death by the Clan mechs.

Definition of insanity. Eventually people will figure it out and stop altogether. At that point PGI might as well just close down.

I actually feel sorry for your unit members that are of the "ALL HAIL THE CLAN!" persuasion, because HBS' game looks freaking epic.

[QuantumButler]

Alan Davion, on 18 December 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

No body has been saying the Clans *never* should have come into the game. Obviously the Clans had to come in at some point as a business objective.

But on the flip side of that coin, PGI might have been better served to delay the Clan introduction until they'd gotten most of the IS stuff into the game and balanced against each other.

You know... The way the original table top game did things? And the way the new HBS game is doing things? AND the way MW5:M is looking, being set between 3015 and 3049.

You don't start a game like this, and just immediately throw a giant a** monkey wrench into everything by introducing the OPAF Clan mechs after only a year, or however long it was after the game started and the Clans eventually came in.

Because we'll apparently never get the remaining weapons needed in order to bring the IS even close to equivalent tech level with the Clans, the Clans will continue to reign supreme in this game and eventually people are just going to say "f*** it" and not play anymore after they've gotten tired of being stomped to death by the Clan mechs.

Definition of insanity. Eventually people will figure it out and stop altogether. At that point PGI might as well just close down.

I actually feel sorry for your unit members that are of the "ALL HAIL THE CLAN!" persuasion, because HBS' game looks freaking epic.

The point was PGI was not financially stable enough to delay introducing the clans any longer than they already did, and they have had more than ample time since then [3 years!] to add in new IS tech if they really ever intended to [they don't and never did].

Face it, PGI is never going to make MWO the game you wish it could be.

Edited by QuantumButler, 18 December 2016 - 05:41 PM.

[Brenden]

Snazzy Dragon, on 14 December 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

Equal numbers both sides. Period.

Now, if IS warriors would STOP BRINGING LRMS, they might do better and take advantage of all those extra quirks they get.

Then, for the meta boys, give them more advanced IS tech; PPC capacitors, rotary AC5s, ER lasers for mediums and smalls, etc

And to top it off, STOP INTRODUCING CLAN MECHS FOR A BIT. Introduce some new, good IS mechs for a change!

Also fixing the fundamentally bad gameplay of Invasion might help

What do you mean? The ASSASSIN is coming in!

[C E Dwyer]

Whatever route P.G.I take, they had better get their finger out and get FW balanced pronto

QP with irritating voice overs is not going to keep the lights on, and the lights need to be on so MW5M happens.

With no cure for the imbalance in sight I can see many I.S loyalists bailing for Battletech next year, because 4.1 royally screwed them over with the one bucket system, and the Clan-I.S imbalance wasn't fixed despite this

[Alan Davion]

QuantumButler, on 18 December 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

The point was PGI was not financially stable enough to delay introducing the clans any longer than they already did, and they have had more than ample time since then [3 years!] to add in new IS tech if they really ever intended to [they don't and never did].

Face it, PGI is never going to make MWO the game you wish it could be.

If PGI doesn't add the remaining IS weapons and tech in order to make them more equivalent to Clans, then they might as well just stop working on MWO right now, period. Because that's the number one stumbling block for balance right now.

How can you properly balance the weapons one side has, ER Small/Medium, UAC 2/10/20, LBX 2/5/20, SSRM 4/6, etc, when the other side doesn't have the same weapons?

Hint: You can't.

Wishing has nothing to do with it. It's blatantly obvious they have no idea how to balance MWO, why else would they finally announce they were working on a single player game? To keep people playing this game until they release the game they should have released in the first place.

If they weren't financially stable enough to delay introducing the Clans long enough to balance the game before the Clans, which just plain f***s up balance from the word go, they never should have started the game to begin with.

Why else do you think I jumped on the HBS kickstarter when I heard about it?

Cause I knew they wouldn't f*** it all up the way PGI did. Hell, I'm more excited about MW5:M now than I am MWO because MW5:M won't be a completely f***** up piece of s*** cause the Clans won't be there.

[Mechsniper]

12 Clan mechs should never be allowed vs 12 IS mechs, this is one huge problem. 2 stars of clan tech vs 3 lances of IS is how FP should have rolled from day 1.

[Y E O N N E]

Mechsniper, on 18 December 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

12 Clan mechs should never be allowed vs 12 IS mechs, this is one huge problem. 2 stars of clan tech vs 3 lances of IS is how FP should have rolled from day 1.

That screws up QP, though. Equipment doesn't have two sets of stats; one for QP and one for FW. It's all one.