391 replies to this topic

[Novakaine]

ladiesman712, on 16 December 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

Always?
I remember times were Clan factions got dominated by IS factions in CW, so please don't try to spread untrue things..kk? thx!

That's only because the merc's tend to jump ship whenever they see and advantage over the other side.
That in my opinion simply needs to stop.

[Harper Steel]

Dane what about adding the IS Omnimechs?????

90ton assault
Sunder SD1-0
The Sunder is the product of what was learned from captured Loki and Thor OmniMechs. The Sunder weighs ninety tons and uses a Hermes 360 XL Engine to save weight while giving the 'Mech a top speed of 65 km/h, a respectable speed for a ninety ton 'Mech. The Sunder carries sixteen and a half tons of armor protection and has fifteen double heat sinks to handle the assault 'Mech's heavy heat load. The Sunder carries a chaotic and powerful mix of weapons and equipment in all of its configurations. It has proven itself time and again against both Clan and Inner Sphere adversaries

70ton Heavy
Avatar AV1-0
The first of the Inner Sphere OmniMechs to be conceptualized and one of the last to reach production by the Draconis Combine as part of its "first generation", the Avatar's design is based on captured OmniMechs. The Avatar is used primarily by the Draconis Combine Mustered Soldiery, but has also been sold to the Lyran Alliance and ComStar .The Avatar weighs in at seventy tons and is powered by a Hermes 280 XL Engine that gives it a top speed of 64.8 km/h. It is protected by twelve tons of StarSlab/4 armor that comes with CASE to protect the 'Mech against complete destruction from an internal ammunition explosion. The Avatar is a powerful OmniMech in its various configurations, with an impressive thirty-four tons of pod space allowing it to carry a wide range of weapons

60ton Heavy
BHKU-0
The Black Hawk-KU is an Inner Sphere version of the Clan Black Hawk OmniMech. In order to make it possible to copy the Black Hawk, the Black Hawk-KU is built ten tons heavier than its Clan counterpart. The Black Hawk-KU is built on a sixty ton chassis and is powered by a Vlar 300 XL Engine which propels it to a top speed of 86.4 kph. The Black Hawk-KU is armored with twelve and a half tons of Mitchel Argon armor giving it almost the maximum amount of protection for its weight. Also, mounted on the base chassis are five jump jets giving the Black Hawk-KU a jumping distance of up to one hundred and fifty meters in all of its configurations. The Black Hawk-KU has fourteen double heat sinks allowing it to dissipate a great deal of waste heat that are common to the configurations that fill the seventeen tons of pod space.

50ton Med
Blackjack BJ2-0
An upgrade of the Blackjack BattleMech, the Blackjack OmniMech is a design that is shared between Luthien Armor Worksand Irian BattleMechs Unlimited. The Blackjack has four permanently mounted Icarus jump jets that allow the 'Mech to jump up to one hundred and twenty meters. The Blackjack is protected by nine-and-a-half tons of armor giving it a respectable amount of protection for a 'Mech of it's size. The Blackjack is also built with a weight saving Alshain 50 Endo Steel chassis and a Nissan 200 XL Engine giving it a top speed of 64.8 kph. The use of advanced construction materials gives the Blackjack 26.5 tons of pod space, allowing it to carry an impressive weapons payload


45ton Med
Firestarter FS9-0
OmniMech Firestarter has proven to be an highly effective and flexible design, with the Combine using it to replace other aging medium-weight workhorses such as the Phoenix Hawk, Wolf and Trebuchet among its front-line forces, while both halves of the Federated Commonwealth instead used it as a recon focused replacement for the original 'Mech and by the FedCom Civil War as a command 'Mech for light 'Mech lances and companies. The only complaint many MechWarriors and technical crews have with the design is the sheer volume of fixed equipment the Firestarter carries, believing the permanently mounted jump jets, flamers heat sinks unduly restricts the natural flexibility of the OmniMech.

30ton light
Owens OW-1
The Owens is intended to be an OmniMech upgrade of the Jenner.The intended role for the Owens is as a cavalry 'Mech that can move along the enemy lines and designate targets for bombardment with Arrow IV artillery attacks. The Owens is a strong spotting unit for artillery and Semi-Guided LRMs as well as a point 'Mech for C3 lances with its permanently mounted TAG laser designator and C3 Slave unit. The Owens is also outfitted with a permanently mounted Beagle Active Probe that allows the 'Mech to detect hidden enemy units. The Owens has a top speed of 129.6 km/h and is protected with seven tons of armor. The 'Mech's unique mix of speed, armor, and electronic warfare equipment make the Owens a valuable asset in urban and dense woods or jungle environments where it can find an enemy unit that is hidden, designate them for an artillery strike, and then leave the area at high speeds.

Edited by Harper Steel, 16 December 2016 - 01:09 AM.

[Novakaine]

Damn I had to like a Clanner now ya dun did it

[Kmieciu]

xe N on, on 15 December 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

MY HBK-IIC-A RUNS A STD ENGINE AND ROCKS WITH 6xC-ERML!!!11

Learn to build mechs :-)

[Freeman 52]

265 / 240 = 1.10

12 / 10 = 1.2

Getting there...

[MischiefSC]

Hexidecimark, on 16 December 2016 - 12:25 AM, said:

The problem here is pretty clear-

You cannot be moderately canon.

I'd like to move closer to canon, and hells yeah that presents a mountain of mechanical issues. Issues that I think can be worked past.

But I can certainly see the argument moving in the opposite direction just as effectively.

Can't do it both ways, though. You either need to overhaul things as per my suggestion, or overhaul things by making clan tech basically a retexture of IS. Otherwise you will be stuck in balancing issues purgatory (which is the originator of the pattern).

A lot of robot fighting games do get by on standard parts, and we could probably manage. And though I'd prefer a *battletech* game over a *gundam* game, that's not to say I wouldn't be just as happy with generic robot killing sim 2017.

Canon was broken. It didn't work well in TT and is flat out unplayable in a FPS. In the same way we don't have Stackpole mech explosions nor force Clan players to make constant bad tactical decisions to create plot armor for the IS you make changes and allowances.

The change in mech armor and weapon refire rate was a bigger shift than IS surviving ST loss. The liquid metal mechbay designs are 10x the difference. How about no TACs? Where's that heatscale again? When was your last ammo cook-off? Yet all that's fine but a survival buff to IS XLs is a terrible atrocity?

The crux of it is the desire to have Clans OP even though we're playing a FPS and not a TT turn based strategy game. So we make a ton of changes to satisfy the shift in game environment but there's that ache to have the Clans be OP, even though the actual developers of the game acknowledged that was a poor design decision.

Pretending that if we don't repeat the worst mistake in the games development history, the one so bad they put the Jihad together to wipe away and start fresh from, we're not a BT game is absurd and disingenuous. We stopped being lore-driven when we had liquid metal mechs and every player has a stable of mechs to play and choose from, no repair/rearm, no logistics, range doubled, armor doubled, refire increased 4x, heatscale removed, heatcap raised, all that.

Think of it as playing Dark Ages but with 3050 era names. We're using the balance decisions that the developers of BT ended at after making the mistake of introducing the Clans as OP.

[MischiefSC]

Novakaine, on 16 December 2016 - 01:10 AM, said:

Damn I had to like a Clanner now ya dun did it

10v12 isn't somehow easier to balance than 12v12. It's worse. It'll either be a swamp one side or the other, either the Clans won't be OP enough (even stock stats are not OP enough to run 10v12) or they'll be too OP. You're also no longer able to split your player pool 50/50, you've now *required* your player population to split unevenly and the majority to elect to play the inferior tech.

It will never happen, was never going to happen. Nothing but <3 for you Novakaine but that idea would never fly and will never fly. Clans OP was always a bad design concept.

[Cyrilis]

OK Guys,
this does not fit 100 % here, but I do not want to put this up in the feature suggestions yet without having some feedback.
As stated above, we have a problem with Clan / IS ballance. this results in amovement of the top notch player to the clans. This is where my question goes to. I think a big part of the problems is not only Clan / IS ballance, but that many Tire 2 - 5 players still have a HUGE skill - KD - whatever distance to the top notch Tier 1 players.

Do you think a Tier depandant drop deck tonnage value would be a good idea?

Explanations:
there would be the need to introduce a PSR / Tier system into FW that runs parallel (!) to the one from Quickplay (so the FW Tier cannot be influenced by QP matches).

FW Tier 5 players have a drop deck limit of 260 tons
FW Tier 4 playser have a drop deck limit of 250 tons
FW Tier 3 playser have a drop deck limit of 240 tons
FW Tier 2 playser have a drop deck limit of 230 tons
FW Tier 1 playser have a drop deck limit of 220 tons

or something like that.

What do you think of that? Worth an own threat or is the idea for the drain?

[Hunter Tseng]

This balance issue will always be an issue as long as it is battletech... but this is a fps with giant stompy robots, online against people not AI controlled cannon fodders, so in my opinion translating TT rules directly to this platform doesn't really apply properly... the IS XL is the best example, for IS v IS the compromise does make sense... durability for agility, but IS v clan, it is a clear disadvantage...
I don't think we can expect any major rebalancing before the introduction of the new skill tree, but the IS XL can be changed instead of 3 crit slot in the ST, why not have 2 crit slot in ST and 1 crit slot in the legs... still kinda "lore" but not insta death from ST loss

[Count Zero 74]

Lets go full Lore then, everytime u press fire a RNG decides if and where u hit.

[Bud Crue]

Cyrilis, on 16 December 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

OK Guys,
this does not fit 100 % here, but I do not want to put this up in the feature suggestions yet without having some feedback.
As stated above, we have a problem with Clan / IS ballance. this results in amovement of the top notch player to the clans. This is where my question goes to. I think a big part of the problems is not only Clan / IS ballance, but that many Tire 2 - 5 players still have a HUGE skill - KD - whatever distance to the top notch Tier 1 players.

Do you think a Tier depandant drop deck tonnage value would be a good idea?

Explanations:
there would be the need to introduce a PSR / Tier system into FW that runs parallel (!) to the one from Quickplay (so the FW Tier cannot be influenced by QP matches).

FW Tier 5 players have a drop deck limit of 260 tons
FW Tier 4 playser have a drop deck limit of 250 tons
FW Tier 3 playser have a drop deck limit of 240 tons
FW Tier 2 playser have a drop deck limit of 230 tons
FW Tier 1 playser have a drop deck limit of 220 tons

or something like that.

What do you think of that? Worth an own threat or is the idea for the drain?

Anything (ok most anything) is worth discussing, but that being said; I think that the only way something like this makes sense is if we agree that more weight somehow overcomes a lack of skill. I don't think it necessarily does.

It seems to me that good players can do fine with lighter mechs (presuming that the skilled players are not taking out right crap mechs). So it seems to me that giving the assumed lower skill/lower tier players more weight does not address that skill imbalance in any consistent way. I mean as an example, using your numbers above: Will a T5 team running all Thunderbolts (still good, reasonable CW mech choice, especially for a beginner) be competitive with aT1 team running all Hunchback IIcs (actually 20 tons lighter than your numbers provide)? I just don't think so.

[Natural Predator]

Bud Crue, on 16 December 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

Anything (ok most anything) is worth discussing, but that being said; I think that the only way something like this makes sense is if we agree that more weight somehow overcomes a lack of skill. I don't think it necessarily does.

It seems to me that good players can do fine with lighter mechs (presuming that the skilled players are not taking out right crap mechs). So it seems to me that giving the assumed lower skill/lower tier players more weight does not address that skill imbalance in any consistent way. I mean as an example, using your numbers above: Will a T5 team running all Thunderbolts (still good, reasonable CW mech choice, especially for a beginner) be competitive with aT1 team running all Hunchback IIcs (actually 20 tons lighter than your numbers provide)? I just don't think so.

The extra weight right now helps some. We fought a team of IS last night and barely beat them. It was close all the way to the end and they "out tonned" us every wave. But vs pugs your right. Weight doesnt matter. I actually feel bad when i run into a true pug group.

[DoctorDetroit]

Harper Steel, on 16 December 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:

Dane what about adding the IS Omnimechs?????

90ton assault
Sunder SD1-0
The Sunder is the product of what was learned from captured Loki and Thor OmniMechs. The Sunder weighs ninety tons and uses a Hermes 360 XL Engine to save weight while giving the 'Mech a top speed of 65 km/h, a respectable speed for a ninety ton 'Mech. The Sunder carries sixteen and a half tons of armor protection and has fifteen double heat sinks to handle the assault 'Mech's heavy heat load. The Sunder carries a chaotic and powerful mix of weapons and equipment in all of its configurations. It has proven itself time and again against both Clan and Inner Sphere adversaries

70ton Heavy
Avatar AV1-0
The first of the Inner Sphere OmniMechs to be conceptualized and one of the last to reach production by the Draconis Combine as part of its &quot;first generation&quot;, the Avatar's design is based on captured OmniMechs. The Avatar is used primarily by the Draconis Combine Mustered Soldiery, but has also been sold to the Lyran Alliance and ComStar .The Avatar weighs in at seventy tons and is powered by a Hermes 280 XL Engine that gives it a top speed of 64.8 km/h. It is protected by twelve tons of StarSlab/4 armor that comes with CASE to protect the 'Mech against complete destruction from an internal ammunition explosion. The Avatar is a powerful OmniMech in its various configurations, with an impressive thirty-four tons of pod space allowing it to carry a wide range of weapons

60ton Heavy
BHKU-0
The Black Hawk-KU is an Inner Sphere version of the Clan Black Hawk OmniMech. In order to make it possible to copy the Black Hawk, the Black Hawk-KU is built ten tons heavier than its Clan counterpart. The Black Hawk-KU is built on a sixty ton chassis and is powered by a Vlar 300 XL Engine which propels it to a top speed of 86.4 kph. The Black Hawk-KU is armored with twelve and a half tons of Mitchel Argon armor giving it almost the maximum amount of protection for its weight. Also, mounted on the base chassis are five jump jets giving the Black Hawk-KU a jumping distance of up to one hundred and fifty meters in all of its configurations. The Black Hawk-KU has fourteen double heat sinks allowing it to dissipate a great deal of waste heat that are common to the configurations that fill the seventeen tons of pod space.

50ton Med
Blackjack BJ2-0
An upgrade of the Blackjack BattleMech, the Blackjack OmniMech is a design that is shared between Luthien Armor Worksand Irian BattleMechs Unlimited. The Blackjack has four permanently mounted Icarus jump jets that allow the 'Mech to jump up to one hundred and twenty meters. The Blackjack is protected by nine-and-a-half tons of armor giving it a respectable amount of protection for a 'Mech of it's size. The Blackjack is also built with a weight saving Alshain 50 Endo Steel chassis and a Nissan 200 XL Engine giving it a top speed of 64.8 kph. The use of advanced construction materials gives the Blackjack 26.5 tons of pod space, allowing it to carry an impressive weapons payload


45ton Med
Firestarter FS9-0
OmniMech Firestarter has proven to be an highly effective and flexible design, with the Combine using it to replace other aging medium-weight workhorses such as the Phoenix Hawk, Wolf and Trebuchet among its front-line forces, while both halves of the Federated Commonwealth instead used it as a recon focused replacement for the original 'Mech and by the FedCom Civil War as a command 'Mech for light 'Mech lances and companies. The only complaint many MechWarriors and technical crews have with the design is the sheer volume of fixed equipment the Firestarter carries, believing the permanently mounted jump jets, flamers heat sinks unduly restricts the natural flexibility of the OmniMech.

30ton light
Owens OW-1
The Owens is intended to be an OmniMech upgrade of the Jenner.The intended role for the Owens is as a cavalry 'Mech that can move along the enemy lines and designate targets for bombardment with Arrow IV artillery attacks. The Owens is a strong spotting unit for artillery and Semi-Guided LRMs as well as a point 'Mech for C3 lances with its permanently mounted TAG laser designator and C3 Slave unit. The Owens is also outfitted with a permanently mounted Beagle Active Probe that allows the 'Mech to detect hidden enemy units. The Owens has a top speed of 129.6 km/h and is protected with seven tons of armor. The 'Mech's unique mix of speed, armor, and electronic warfare equipment make the Owens a valuable asset in urban and dense woods or jungle environments where it can find an enemy unit that is hidden, designate them for an artillery strike, and then leave the area at high speeds.

So in what universe is putting an xl engine in an IS assault a good idea? The sunder would be very squishy.

Because of that i will go ahead and assume everything else you said is also absurd.

Also, your idea would make IS pay 2 compete with clan.

Edited by DoctorDetroit, 16 December 2016 - 06:49 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Ragnar Baron Leiningen, on 16 December 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

The extra weight right now helps some. We fought a team of IS last night and barely beat them. It was close all the way to the end and they "out tonned" us every wave. But vs pugs your right. Weight doesnt matter. I actually feel bad when i run into a true pug group.

Yeah. I think extra weight does help to address perceived tech imbalance, I just don't think it does much in a schema that is attempting to address straight up skill imbalance, as in the instance that Cyrillis was alluding to. If more weight equaled more better I might agree, but I just don't think that is consistently true. No amount of weight is going to help overcome denial or ignorance of the meta, lack of ability to work as a team, or the simple ignorance that even some experienced players seem to have of the intricacies of the maps and modes. All of that is exacerbated with newer and presumably lower tier players and giving them (us) 4 Atlases isn't going to do much more than just prolong the agony.

Sometimes the answer to a problem really is: practice, get good, join a unit and play as a team; and I think this problem (disparate skill levels) is one of them.

[Michael Abt]

When there is only a minor imbalance not many players won't bother to change builds, switch sides etc. However, at a certain point you will see a big shift in player behavior. Simple truth: Imbalance is *not* a linear progression, it is hyperbolic. Once a certain point is reached the erosion ends in a landslide.

That is what we witnessed and still witness with FP. Despite various balance attempts the tech disparity is still so huge that we are at a 25% something population difference.

It could be argued that the current balance attempt is in line with the lore. Clans do their bidings what they want to use, hence a reduction in drop weight. Increasing IS drop weights won't help though because on a mech to mech comparison they won't be getting any better. Therefore limiting what Clans are able to field is the better way.

In my opinion IS drop weight should be set back to 250t while Clan drop weight should be dropped to 220t. While it is only another 5t added to the gap it significantly weakens the Clans by limiting what they are able to field. They will still have the advantage thanks to Scouting missions since they can deploy the best mechs available in the light/med department.

[M A N T I S]

Novakaine, on 15 December 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Most clanner comments are so disingenuous it's astounding.
"I truely see no disadvantages in my IS mechs."
What pile of unadulterated BS.
However I found my own FW solution..
I'm just gonna stop playing it.
Yup.
And I hope to the high heavens I'm not alone.
Oh and on side balance is a damn myth.
However we can achieve parity.
Because for now the only parity the IS has is with........pears.
See ya'll in Puglandia.

Well, it's not disingenuous at all. I prefer my Grasshoppers to my Ebons, because the torse twisting is quick, the cooling is great, it has JJs, good armour, nice hardpoints and mine runs 83.5... so I like it. I don't know what else I can say. Those mechs make up the core of my decks, but keep calling me liar. Thanks!

[SlyJJ]

Vincent Quatermain, on 15 December 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Worse heat, fewer and weaker quirks, inferior ACs, limited customizablity on the omnis

You need to check your math. The heat is higher in clan weapons in proportion to the damage they deal. In short, the longer durations are because it does more damage, and likewise with the heat. The only weapon where IS holds any advantag is pulse lasers when it comes to duration, but even then clan has range.

And did you not watch the video? Talking about limited customising options when compared to battlemechs? Jeez with omnipods you've got more options than one could hope for.

And please explain how a uac that has +50% on range and can deal DOUBLE damage is "inferior" to my AC20? "Weaker quirks" thats so adorably cute- Iget -10% heat and only on certain mechs whereas you get +25% range in the weapon- and omnipods allow you to do whatever to any mech.

Vincent Quatermain, on 15 December 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

First off, this is not a Clan vs IS argument, it's Freelancers and IS Loyalists vs everyone else.

Second, if Clan was "overwhelmingly superior" none of the major merc units would ever go IS. Why? Because they play to win. Is there arguably a slight advantage? Maybe . . . except that the tonnage gap is now 25 tons on an Invasion drop deck. No fracking way Clans have the advantage now. As soon as the current contracts expire, and mercs all go IS, the Clans are going to get curb stomped.

Becase of the rewards on faction reputation..... They play IS and are so convinced by the quirks that they decide to stay! Oh right- none of them did, and they were stomped as IS too...

Vincent Quatermain, on 15 December 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Whatever, I don't care. But then the only distinction between FP and QP will be drop decks. The irony is that the grognards will have been responsible for the last vestige of lore vanishing from the game.



False. 228 switched between Clan and IS on a two week cycle all summer and into the fall, and will almost certainly go IS next week.

But please go on saying that. It does wonders for the queue population for you to lie about this. I guess giving scrubs a ready made excuse for failure is more important than being able to get matches.

Your actions only prove our point. Considering how "superor" IS mechs are, surely if we had clan tech none of us would use it, because its not "really" incredibly better, right? If you honestly thought that, you'd have no problem with mixing tech.

As I said before- willfully ignorant. Nothing like trying to convince me I've got a "edge" because my AC shots 2/3 the distance yours does and does half damage. Thats precious

[Lily from animove]

Mech The Dane, on 15 December 2016 - 02:39 AM, said:

lol

Indeed, I produce a video with evidence to back up my claims. But apparently some people are just to smug and comfortable in their elaborate toxic fantasies. Nothing you can do about that unfortunately.

what evidence, the chassis leaderboards where people play entirely different that in FW? Sry but a laod of your evidence coems form false conclusions.

Count Zero 74, on 15 December 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

That's what I called unbalanced

sing it with thunderbolds

Mech The Dane, on 15 December 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

Did you actually watch my video? Simply stating it is a skill difference means nothing unless you can address why that difference exists. It doesn't just happen magically, it is not predestined. There is something driving those players to the clans.

In my video I lay out the case as to why I believe it is tech that drives them there. What is your theory?

Is mechs are cheaper.
IS banners in the FW selection come earlier than clanbanners - impatient noobs donT read they click when they are annoyed.
fancy IS banners vs strange animals on clan banners.

it does not happen magically, but it exists. it exists because people do buy the cheaper mechs, I had two buddies comign to MWo and they bought IS emchs, mainl lrm boats.
Why? cheap and lrm's in t5 lrm's are the Op wonderweapon, so people quickly buy them, and when they end in FP they come lurming with cheap IS mechs. because thats what they lerned and what they used.

generally the noobs that exists don't do better on SI and clanside, they simply die differently, on IS side they die ST loss detah because they field XL engines on unsuited mechs. On clanside they overheat shuttdown and get shot to trash. Noobs are noobs, but unfortuntaely aren't distributed equally. In my attemp to join the last FW event where also prices for IS existed I saw the full scale of IS bottom line players. And there simply is around 2 or 3x as much of them than on clanside.
What the game needs is a better system that teached people theoretical and practical basics, maybe by academy "quests" and some cbill paid question and answer games. Noobs build abyssimal bad mechs and hardly know what twisting is or cover. And when one side has more noobs than the other they will lose. It was always a FW problem and will always stay one. PGI shoudl also clearly mark clan and is emchs in the Mechlab with a PHAT golden or orange frame to indicate clan or IS mechs. yes theres a small filter up there for it, but thats surely not what noobs get and understand early when they make their first mech buy decision. but before they buy one they should be supplied by the game with a proper knowledge.

two week long sudden test of lcoking people into their current factions and allowing crosstech would be interesting, but then hardly work too, because many noobs would still bring the same mechs as before because they can't just afford buying a set of 3 new mechs and skilling them up to make the data some valuable data.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 December 2016 - 08:38 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wow I didn't know there were so many people that didn't realize balance favors Clan mechs. Come on people, get your head out of the clouds. They need to dial back some.of the quirk nerfs, maybe not ALL the way, but IS mechs do need a little bit of help right now.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 16 December 2016 - 08:28 AM.

[Count Zero 74]

1st Thunderbolt Irregulars:



beautifull, isn't it?