156 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Which gets to you more:

The fact that Clans get death proof XL engines, or the 2 slot DHS that lets them dissipate much more heat than a IS Mech?

At this point I think the 2 slot DHS is what pushes me more to Clans because the usefulness of IS Assault Mechs is limited by the number of heatsinks they can physically carry. Compound this with the ludicrous fact that a Mauler has the same "internal space" as a Locust and I just get frustrated trying to make anything but ballistic builds work on big IS mechs.




(Don't you dare call me a whiny IS pilot, because IS pilots don't run Night Gyrs, Direwolves, MadIICs and HbkIICs all the time)

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 December 2016 - 03:42 PM.

[Bombast]

In MWO, engines.

The superior capabilities of the Clan DHS, in MWO, are largely mitigated by increased weapon heat generation and ghost heat. The only IS counter to Clan XLs, however, are structure quirks, which vary from 'Yah, that helps a bit' to 'Why bother.'

Not that it's relevant to the topic at hand, but in Battletech, it's the opposite. Clan XLs are better, but the crit system and dice mean it's not a huge advantage. Clan DHS, however, is a massive boon, not only because they fit into legs, CTs, and crammed STs, but because the heat difference between advanced IS tech and Clan tech is minimal at best, and in the Clan's favor at worst.

Edited by Bombast, 16 December 2016 - 03:50 PM.

[Zieten]

XLs all the way imo. Been thinking about this a bit lately, and there is hardly any reason for any Clan mech not to mount an XL (there may be 2-3 builds that need an STD engine).
I'd go as far and would suggest that IS XL engines get a similiar treatment as the Clan XLs with even harsher penalties on speed/heat/whatever. IMO this would help the balance quite a lot (this would need to go in conjunction with another quirk pass though).

[1453 R]

I'm not sure why the decreased heat cap on the cDHS was rescinded. it made sense and was a differentiator for the two technology bases.

Obviously the cXL has a greater overall impact on the game than cDHS, though I'd argue that's more because of the advantages it offers smaller 'Mechs. (Good) lights with STD-like durability are something of a paradigm shift for that weight bracket and probably why so many people still kvetch about the ACH, but the bigger a Clan 'Mech gets, the less able it is to dodge and dive and spread damage around, and the more likely it is to have highly questionable geo (at least currently).

If I had my druthers I'd reinstate the heat cap penalty for the cDHS. That's an easy fix and it seemed to at least partially work. The iXL/cXL issue is contentious mostly because nobody's figured out a proper Different-But-Equal implementation for the two yet and half the forum is insisting on trying to homogenize the two engines instead, which either lands us in blatant outrageous power creep or outright destroys all existing Clan OmniMechs. Neither is a great place to wind up.

[Monkey Lover]

Having case in every part of the mech is great too. Is you can't run a gauss in the arm without half the time blowing out your side.

I would say clan xl is the biggest difference. 2 slot is very powerful when they use it but take the kdk3 with uac. I might have 5 dhs at the most

Edited by Monkey Lover, 16 December 2016 - 09:16 PM.

[visionGT4]

Lets not beat around the bush the biggest factor is that *everything* is better when it comes to clan tech.

[Snazzy Dragon]

It's a combination of better weapons systems in everything but missiles (IS missiles have way more reliable heat management and spread in my experience, especially on lrms, with the exception of streak 2s), DHS taking 2 slots, lighter equipment, C-XLs, and higher DPS ballistics w/ better boatability.

IS is long overdue for some technology that will close the gap between them, with a stronger emphasis on DPS since their burst damage is not as good and higher durability. It's an ugly mess since clan mechs weren't designed to only be marginally better, but far superior. I also think any XL engine mounted IS mech should get an automatic +10% structure bonus to its side torsos, and fine tuned per chassis (i.e if black knight over-performs, drop down to 5%, victor under-performs, go to 15%) until they hit the sweet spot of "just right." Equipment like the IS UAC10 and 20 will bring mechs like the king crab back into the equation but the jam chance and long unjam time will keep regular AC10s and 20s from being obsoleted.

Ammo switching for lb-10xs would also be nice and to prevent ac10 from falling out of use the direct damage slug could only do 8.5 damage as opposed to 10, with the spread fire getting the full 10 but spread out. As for the ER laser line for IS, it would be challenging to ensure that the ER lasers aren't just a straight up upgrade rather than a sidegrade but I think it could be done.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 16 December 2016 - 04:45 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Lighter mechs, without a doubt the XL
They get the most from TrueDubs, and rarely heatsink mounting.

WubShee? I'd actually have to build it with cDHS and find out. But, that's also geometry. He his a big arse CT, and XL friendly arms (dem shoulder pads)
But, WubShee would also love a cXL
Compared to something like the Atlas...bad example, he needs and AC20, how about the King Crab. While mostly CT, he doesn't have small STs either.

[QuantumButler]

IMO it is no doubt the clan XL that makes the most difference.

[LordNothing]

how about an engine mount upgrade that lets you move 2 of the st slots to the ct?

[Flak Kannon]

I think its the death proof XL engines.


I recently leveled my Orion IIc's and found them very durable. I would loose side torso's often, but still be in the fight at 30-40% health with half my weapons dealing good damage. I'd either loose my SRM side, or my AC side, but not both...

So.. LBx20 plus a LPL, or SRM 18 plus a LPL left to fight with.

I got alot of kill and contributed to a lot of wins with half a torso.


If I was running that same thing in my IS Orion, with an XL, Im down and dead, or in a STD engine Orion, Im only 1/2 the damage or 2/3 the damage with Both torsos, or 1/4 to 2/5 the damage with a side blow out.


I feel that CLan XL is greater( more powerful trait) than 2 slot DHS.


Enjoi

Edited by Flak Kannon, 16 December 2016 - 05:39 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

cXLs give them indirectly many of the benefits of cDHS. Higher engine ratings means more in-engine slots, so it nets to higher heat dissipation on top of higher speed and better survivability.

[ChapeL]

In a game where high alphas are king, the fact that in order to attain such numbers the IS chassis usually must mount an XL engine, thus putting themselves at risk of ST kills is the biggest factor.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Prosperity Park, on 16 December 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

Which gets to you more:

The fact that Clans get death proof XL engines, or the 2 slot DHS that lets them dissipate much more heat than a IS Mech?

At this point I think the 2 slot DHS is what pushes me more to Clans because the usefulness of IS Assault Mechs is limited by the number of heatsinks they can physically carry. Compound this with the ludicrous fact that a Mauler has the same "internal space" as a Locust and I just get frustrated trying to make anything but ballistic builds work on big IS mechs.




(Don't you dare call me a whiny IS pilot, because IS pilots don't run Night Gyrs, Direwolves, MadIICs and HbkIICs all the time)

Hmm. You do realize that Clan weapons are significantly hotter than IS weapons and they (Clan Mechs) generally need to mount about 10-15% more DHS to cool the same amount of firepower?

For example lets just compare really quick.

IS mech
6 x ML = 30 damage = 24 Heat
2 x LPL = 22 damage = 14 Heat
Total 52 Damage = 38 heat


Clan Mech
4 x cER ML = 28 damage = 28 Heat
2 x LPL = 26 Damage = 20 Heat
Total 54 Damage = 48 Heat

So for roughly the same damage output, the Clan mech will generate 10 more heat. This mean the Clan mech would have to mount about 3 more DHS to compensate for its hotter running weapons. That is 6 more critical slots invested. That is like turning 6 of his external 2 slot DHS into 3 slot DHS. Also this costs him an additional 3 tons of weight invested into DHS, weight an IS mech could use for more weapons or a bigger engine. Hmm....2 slot Clan vs 3 slot IS....seems like the IS might actually have an advantage here despite the seeming advantage of a 2 slot DHS.

Honestly its is posts like this that really get me riled up when there is talk about Clan vs IS balance. People complain about something based on only the face value things and get all righteous about it. However rarely do they think things through and look at the bigger picture or the entire package. Sure if you just compare Clan DHS to IS DHS there appears to be an obvious advantage, I mean 2 slots vs 3 slot right, obviously smaller is better because that means you can put more on your mech. However if the weapons Clan mechs are forced to use run so much hotter than the IS counter parts that your actually forced to mount more of them on a Clan mech to gain the same heat dissipation level as an IS mech then suddenly all 2 slot DHS do is allow you to match IS 3 slot performance.

I could go on to talk about who being forced to mount more DHS to cool a given weapon also acts to counter act the Clan weight and size advantage of many Clan weapons as well. In my example the Clan mech is forced to waste 3 tons, 3 TONS of its weight limit on DHS. Add that weight to those lighter Clan weapons and you find that the Clan mech now only has a 1 ton advantage for the same level of firepower.

So please stop with the balance complaints unless your going to do more than look at the face value of things.

As far as the XL engine, yeah I think something needs to be done to address that even if it is lore breaking but I still don't think IS and Clan XL should be the same down the rivets, nor do I think Clan mechs should be punished further than they already at.


Oh and before anyone calls me a "Clanner Idealist" a Clanner Idealist wouldn't have half his stable consisting of IS mechs and a greater real dollar investment in IS Hero mech and mech packs hehe.

[Kali Rinpoche]

cXL engines. Speed kills. Almost every clan mech is faster than its IS peers. (except lights) Mount more weapons at less weight and shrug of a ST loss.

[Aiden Skye]

I don't run any of those mechs listed. Don't even care to own any of them. There's already like 50 posts on this already with the same band of 10-15 people typing up novels on the subject. Do we need another one of these?

[Snazzy Dragon]

Viktor Drake, on 16 December 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

Hmm. You do realize that Clan weapons are significantly hotter than IS weapons and they (Clan Mechs) generally need to mount about 10-15% more DHS to cool the same amount of firepower?

For example lets just compare really quick.

IS mech
6 x ML = 30 damage = 24 Heat
2 x LPL = 22 damage = 14 Heat
Total 52 Damage = 38 heat


Clan Mech
4 x cER ML = 28 damage = 28 Heat
2 x LPL = 26 Damage = 20 Heat
Total 54 Damage = 48 Heat

So for roughly the same damage output, the Clan mech will generate 10 more heat. This mean the Clan mech would have to mount about 3 more DHS to compensate for its hotter running weapons. That is 6 more critical slots invested. That is like turning 6 of his external 2 slot DHS into 3 slot DHS. Also this costs him an additional 3 tons of weight invested into DHS, weight an IS mech could use for more weapons or a bigger engine. Hmm....2 slot Clan vs 3 slot IS....seems like the IS might actually have an advantage here despite the seeming advantage of a 2 slot DHS.

Nevermind the range advantage. By the time you hit clan optimal range IS lasers tickle, assuming they hit at all.

[Johnny Z]

W A R K H A N, on 16 December 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

I don't run any of those mechs listed. Don't even care to own any of them. There's already like 50 posts on this already with the same band of 10-15 people typing up novels on the subject. Do we need another one of these?

I'm hurt. Another topic on this subject never hurts.

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 16 December 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

Honestly its is posts like this that really get me riled up when there is talk about Clan vs IS balance. People complain about something based on only the face value things and get all righteous about it. However rarely do they think things through and look at the bigger picture or the entire package. Sure if you just compare Clan DHS to IS DHS there appears to be an obvious advantage, I mean 2 slots vs 3 slot right, obviously smaller is better because that means you can put more on your mech. However if the weapons Clan mechs are forced to use run so much hotter than the IS counter parts that your actually forced to mount more of them on a Clan mech to gain the same heat dissipation level as an IS mech then suddenly all 2 slot DHS do is allow you to match IS 3 slot performance.

This is the pot calling the kettle black. Every single time you get on here to make posts like this, you always neglect the complete package. Always. You conveniently ignore things like weight and slots and total number of weapons that can be brought simply so you can try to make your point (i.e. FLD AC/5 vs. burst UAC/5). You ignore actual damage dealt per second of burn so you can trumpet around how IS lasers are better because of short beam durations. Oh no, let's conveniently leave out the fact that by the time you've closed range on a half-awake team with Clan lasers, you've received considerable damage. How about those "unreliable" Clan UACs? You mean those weapons that never jam if you don't double tap and can dish out consistent and constant damage if you need them to? Those unreliable UACs?

You then have the gall to go and imply that specialist builds don't matter through your anti-comp spiels as if nobody played specialist builds in public queues. And I don't even understand where you get this, because when competent people do drop into the public queues with specialist builds, they consistently wreck ****. Oh yes, let's continue to not balance the game because every Tom, D*ck, and Sue can't aim or build his or her 'Mech for crap and that lets us feel like gods with similarly mediocre 'Mechs. Sound strategy you have going there, mate.

[visionGT4]

Viktor Drake, on 16 December 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

For example lets just compare really quick.

IS mech
6 x ML = 30 damage = 24 Heat
2 x LPL = 22 damage = 14 Heat
Total 52 Damage = 38 heat

Clan Mech
4 x cER ML = 28 damage = 28 Heat
2 x LPL = 26 Damage = 20 Heat
Total 54 Damage = 48 Heat

So your comparing 6 tons of ML vs 4 tons of cERML. Whilst 'forgetting' to mention the significant range advantage of the cERML. And failing to bring up the fact that for equal burn time the cERML does more damage. And again, you feel its not necessary to paint the full picture of LPL vs cLPL with the later weighing less and shooting further.

And on the subject of face value, these weapons do not operate in a vacuum. The platform which these 2 clan weapons are carried by have superior mobility, superior survivability and superior fire power due to everything clan weighing less and requiring less crit space.

Viktor Drake, on 16 December 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

Oh and before anyone calls me a "Clanner Idealist"

id probably use the word apologist