174 replies to this topic

[Solstice]

what are peoples favorite combination with the new tonnage restriction?

[laksarath]

when i read the changes, didnt think 25t would make much of a difference...
but after playing a few games, you can really feel it in game.
think its underestimated because its actually 12x25t difference

the games are closer now... which is good, but bias towards the IS.
the new skill tree will probably push that balance towards the clan side as IS lose all their quirks.
but the task of balancing for PGI just got harder because the in-game mechanics now need and expect clan to be better.

[MovinTarget]

Solstice, on 17 December 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

what are peoples favorite combination with the new tonnage restriction?

Salt
Bitterness
Denial
Hate

[PraetorGix]

latinisator, on 16 December 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

What would you do instead? Forbid big teams to choose a certain side?

I would do exactly what you said, word by word. If your team has more than X members you can only be clan as long as there is another similar team already in IS.
Now, the big teams can split up, ok then do it like this: if the difference in population between factions is bigger than say, 10%, the more populated side gets unavailable until the other side catches up.

The "PGI style" always tries to put a bandaid in the hole that solves only partially the issue, while leaving a big portion of the players with a bad taste in the mouth. At least with a system that tells you the limitations beforehand they can avoid the feel bad moments.

Edited by PraetorGix, 17 December 2016 - 08:36 PM.

[PraetorGix]

Daemon04, on 17 December 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

LOL. Like ive never done fp and dont know about optimized drop decks.
The issue is a premade of 4-6 brings optimized drop decks but the rest is just IS pugs with trials and bad builds bc they dont know better. No way youre gonna make it out alive out of that match.
Entry level IS pugs should stay away from FP bc they dont have the mechs to bring.- bc they dont have em. especially those trials. lol

Make up your mind spheroid. The problem is with the technology disparity or with PUGs ruinning your style? You make your post sound too much like baby whining because clamz op ZOMGLULZ. I mean I know it is just that but try a bit more to conceal it next time.

Edited by PraetorGix, 17 December 2016 - 08:49 PM.

[MovinTarget]

This was about 24 hours ago:




This is a fresh screenshot:



I'm trimming the tree with family so I can't break down the numbers so feel free to speculate rampantly!

[MovinTarget]

The key to extrapolating this data out will be to look at LOSSES, not wins. Why? Ghost Drops count as wins, but not losses. This is one of the reasons when you add up total wins and losses for both sides, you'll always see more wins.

The one X factor are the freelancers. Its hard to determine their impact on these stats, however I think there are few enough of them that it shouldn't impact the overall results.

So when using the losses of one side to count as wins for the other:
If I did my math correctly,
Clans went from a WL overall of about 1.8 but only .7 over the past 24 hours.
Meanwhile, IS has gone from .5 to 1.4

I'm not 100% sure my math is right on this but I'm trying to track the difference since the first screenshot and while visually you can see the Clan faction W/L is dropping, I'm not sure the swing is quite *that* intense....

[Daemon04]

PraetorGix, on 17 December 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

Make up your mind spheroid. The problem is with the technology disparity or with PUGs ruinning your style? You make your post sound too much like baby whining because clamz op ZOMGLULZ. I mean I know it is just that but try a bit more to conceal it next time.

both are an issue.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

MovinTarget, on 18 December 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

The key to extrapolating this data out will be to look at LOSSES, not wins. Why? Ghost Drops count as wins, but not losses. This is one of the reasons when you add up total wins and losses for both sides, you'll always see more wins.

The one X factor are the freelancers. Its hard to determine their impact on these stats, however I think there are few enough of them that it shouldn't impact the overall results.

So when using the losses of one side to count as wins for the other:
If I did my math correctly,
Clans went from a WL overall of about 1.8 but only .7 over the past 24 hours.
Meanwhile, IS has gone from .5 to 1.4

I'm not 100% sure my math is right on this but I'm trying to track the difference since the first screenshot and while visually you can see the Clan faction W/L is dropping, I'm not sure the swing is quite *that* intense....

There are different ways you could look at this data set. I think the most easiest and most useful would be just to track the IS win/loss by day. I haven't ghost dropped in phase 4.1 yet as a Clanner, so I think it's fair to assume that IS ghost drops are somewhere close to zero (if not zero)...i.e they wouldn't be a significant factor.

Based on this the FRR had a good 24 hours with 1047 wins vs 823 losses.. No other IS faction looks to have had a positive w/l over this period though. Nonetheless, it was a better day for the IS yesterday for sure...not great...just better...you can just calculate yesterday's w/l for the IS as a whole and compare it to what it was on your original screenshot...I don't have time to do the numbers right now, but on the surface it looks much improved.

[MovinTarget]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 18 December 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

There are different ways you could look at this data set. I think the most easiest and most useful would be just to track the IS win/loss by day. I haven't ghost dropped in phase 4.1 yet as a Clanner, so I think it's fair to assume that IS ghost drops are somewhere close to zero (if not zero)...i.e they wouldn't be a significant factor.

Based on this the FRR had a good 24 hours with 1047 wins vs 823 losses.. No other IS faction looks to have had a positive w/l over this period though. Nonetheless, it was a better day for the IS yesterday for sure...not great...just better...you can just calculate yesterday's w/l for the IS as a whole and compare it to what it was on your original screenshot...I don't have time to do the numbers right now, but on the surface it looks much improved.

I just didn't want people pointing and saying "see? nothings changed!" or "the balance has completely reversed!"

Like you said, I think IS did better yesterday than prior, but they are already in a hole so they have to "do more better" for a few days if the numbers were to level out statistically...

I am pretty sure the Clans have had some ghost drops, not a ton, but they've had longer waits than IS (nearly insta for me Tuesday-Friday). So I wouldn't be surprised if the clans have more total wins than IS has total losses.

Edited by MovinTarget, 18 December 2016 - 09:59 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

MovinTarget, on 18 December 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

I just didn't want people pointing and saying "see? nothings changed!" or "the balance has completely reversed!"

Like you said, I think IS did better yesterday than prior, but they are already in a hole so they have to "do more better" for a few days if the numbers were to level out statistically...

I am pretty sure the Clans have had some ghost drops, not a ton, but they've had longer waits than IS (nearly insta for me Tuesday-Friday). So I wouldn't be surprised if the clans have more total wins than IS has total losses.

The possibility of ghost drops on the Clan side is why it is better to just run IS numbers (where there are likely close to zero ghosts). So, assuming for every IS win, there is an actual Clan loss (no ghosts) my quick math yields the following %'s.

In the first screenshot IS wins approximately 35.6% of the time, Clans would then have won 64.4% of the time ...
Factoring the second screenshot vs the first shows the IS winning 44.2% of matches during the period between the screenshots. So, the Clans would be winning 55.8% of the time during that period....which i Guess was yesterday

The question then becomes: "What is an acceptable ratio for PGI's purposes?". It can't be 50%/50% or no progress on the map would ever be made. I think 45%-55% or maybe even down 40%-60% still keeps players engaged and hopeful of having a chance at winning. The FRR had a really solid day yesterday...they won a good deal more than they lost...but we probably know why that was...units playing FRR and FRR TS (the best and most organized TS for mixed groups to drop on....IMHO)

[MovinTarget]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 18 December 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

The possibility of ghost drops on the Clan side is why it is better to just run IS numbers (where there are likely close to zero ghosts). So, assuming for every IS win, there is an actual Clan loss (no ghosts) my quick math yields the following %'s.

In the first screenshot IS wins approximately 35.6% of the time, Clans would then have won 64.4% of the time ...
Factoring the second screenshot vs the first shows the IS winning 44.2% of matches during the period between the screenshots. So, the Clans would be winning 55.8% of the time during that period....which i Guess was yesterday

The question then becomes: "What is an acceptable ratio for PGI's purposes?". It can't be 50%/50% or no progress on the map would ever be made. I think 45%-55% or maybe even down 40%-60% still keeps players engaged and hopeful of having a chance at winning. The FRR had a really solid day yesterday...they won a good deal more than they lost...but we probably know why that was...units playing FRR and FRR TS (the best and most organized TS for mixed groups to drop on....IMHO)

Yup, I dunno how Kurita's numbers look so crappy, most of my IDI mates have been winning and they have been making themsleves at home of the FFR/HK hub (Thanks Dane!)

[RogoRogo Wolf]

Why even participate in trying to have a decent discsussion about this...
a simple google search will yield more than 4 years of written suffering (including al lot of proof and documentation) by competent players (many of them in the IT or software business themselves with one bottom line...
PGI management never "balanced" anything on any form of statistical data.
Heatmaps at some time was integrated in MWO - they never bothered to even get the data from the server.... (map design is now in more professional hands I gather, but still, management does make the final release decisions).
"Balance" decisions were made on what some overeager competitive units wanted (aka an on retardness bordering shoot from spawning repetitive arena shooter).... because PGI management only listens to twitter (I kid you not) and 140 characters we all know is totally sufficient for discussing complex game design ideas....
If ever... community contribution was abused to manufacture as post-decision narrative for PGI's king of bollocks...
For 48 hours we actually had fun and balanced gameplay (and sorry that clan players have earned winning potential by playing against the odds) - now we are back to ultra-heavy first IS-waves who then spawncamp while telling us clanners in chat how good they are (thanx to majestic 12 in this regard, have fun in moms basement ).
Maybe PGI thinks it can run a "cycling player base" business model like gaijin in War Thunder (they can not).
Maybe PGI thinks this is a mass appeal online-shooter (it is not).
Maybe PGI thinks the overeager comp-units and one-timers create revenue (they do not, PGI revenue is created by lore-heavy invested fans who stick with the game against common sense, because they like the mechwarrior universe aka battletech).
No wonder MWLL has seen such a surge...
What a missed opportunity... again....

Edited by RogoRogo Wolf, 18 December 2016 - 12:50 PM.

[Meldric Ward]

Maybe just quit playing it. I get tears in my eyes every time I see the damn IS map. It is completly useless. What happened to the Jade Falcons last "season"? The conquered 2/3 of the freaking map and all they got was a map reset. Not even mentioned anywhere, no final battle.

Who the f**k cares after all?

[MovinTarget]

RogoRogo Wolf, on 18 December 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

For 48 hours we actually had fun and balanced gameplay

This was about a day after the hotfix...


I think its necessary to state that your usage of the phrase "fun and balanced" is entirely subjective...

I am not saying the tonnage swing is ideal/perfect/fair/etc... But it is them attempting to kill the skew with what they have.

[Lizardman from Hollywood]

Bah night gyr/hellbringer/hunchie 2c/hunchie2c still an ez win.

[TheSteelRhino]

The reality is this. Quirks or not, Clan XL are still WAY superior to IS mechs. If they just ignored lore and made IS XL's the same as clan (meaning loss of 1 side Torso doesn't destroy you) that would help a lot.

But the reality is that clan tech IS just better. Personally, I wish they'd just introduce improved IS tech (advance the timeline a bit) but I'm sure that they wouldn't be able to get things balanced there either.


Shrug..maybe 12 vs 10...company vs 2 stars would work. whatever at this point.

[TheSteelRhino]

And for everyone out there saying that clans are better, and that IS quirks are OP...you should go watch Mech The Dane's utube video. It's pretty enlightening.

[RogoRogo Wolf]

MovinTarget, on 18 December 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

...
I think its necessary to state that your usage of the phrase "fun and balanced" is entirely subjective...

I am not saying the tonnage swing is ideal/perfect/fair/etc... But it is them attempting to kill the skew with what they have.

Sorry to digress (but kudos that you base your opinion on actual data), but this does not take into consideration that for a long time random players on clan side had mostly given up on faction gameplay (or CW as it was once called, because they got obliterated, in any drop combination on either side) - and those that did not are now in general quite skilled, regardless of the meaningless, quickplay-based "pilot tier".
"Skilled" as in "have earned working reflex based maneuvering while suffering against the odds" - no wonder clan players (I dare not say "we", though I am a Wolf-in-Exile-fan-in-this-game-Wolf-loyalist-and-yes-I-know-my-unit-currently-runs-on-a-merc-contract ) plus those faction gameplay fans who returned because they hoped for diverse gameplay with the last patch (and that was a mixed-emtions feature/fix/minor UI change patch, not a "phase" like PGI once again overhyped it) had considerable success, when they for once could fight on par.
I know that qualitative analysis and interpretation on top of quantitative and in this case purely metrical data
a) sucks
is never totally inter-subjective (aka objectifiyable peer reviewable)
c) sucks more and is boring whining
but bear with me....
after many years and some not unconsiderable amount of REAL money spent... this latest hotfix (plus its undocumented changes to either ghost heat penalties or heatsink values) made me actually write my first two posts on the official forums.... evaaaaarrr....
So at least try to grant me that I have thought this through before typing and am trying to NOT make unfound claims...

P.S: ingame I am way below average, so I suck enough at this game to talk about this quite chill...

Edited by RogoRogo Wolf, 18 December 2016 - 01:55 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Notice, I didn't try to wittle away at any of your other statements, just the one I found oddly funny, was I wrong in assuming your statement about fun and balance pertained to that window before the hotfix?

Because if thats not what you meant, I have no issue with the statement at all. If it was, I am just curious what balance you were referring to...

It wasn't population balance because the clans were complaining about wait times while IS was getting instastomps-er-instadrops so clearly there were more clan players queuing than IS.

It wasn't balance in results because, again, based on the screenshot, clearly the clans were having their way.

So I guess I wanted to understand what you meant by "fun and balance" because unless it was in some sense of revenge for "clan nerfage" or other perceived slight, I'm not really sure what your statement references.

Or were you using the term ironically, acknowledging that somewhere in the game, there was an imbalance and people were not having fun as the population skew and metrics demonstrate.

I play both sides, I don't want either to have an overwhelming advantage. I like that they are not inherently the same tech either. I don't expect an even 50/50 in any given match but the big picture should demonstrate that either side has a decent chance of winning if they bring their big boy pants, otherwise it can't be called "balance"

Edited by MovinTarget, 18 December 2016 - 02:12 PM.