40 replies to this topic

[Vincent Quatermain]

The poll is simple. Assuming no changes to any other mechanics, what size do the invasion drop decks need to be in order for IS and Clan to be balanced?

I know some people want to change XL engine, or make it a 10v12 drop, and some people want more weapon changes, or quirk buffs. Set that aside for now, and let's try and quantify exactly how big the gap is.

Caveat: (That's Cah-Vee-Aht, not ca-vette )
PGI is doing this already, and is using drop deck size to dial in Invasion balance. They will almost certainly do it badly for the first few weeks, due to big units sloshing back and forth between the sides.

I predict that Forum Play participants will vastly overestimate this gap, perhaps enough to flip the script and see the Clans pushed back to their beachhead planets. This may even be worth doing, just to finally prove that IS Loyalists need to whine less and git gud.

But, for now, just be honest -- how big is the tech gap?

[Cizjut]

I came to the conclusion that will never make a difference until the IS prices on equipment are severely cheaper, or the stock mechs are better equipped

Looking at both sides, statistically, their mechs do not have much more advantages at top tinkering with equipment, BUT players do NOT modify and invest in their **** stocks, and the Clans do not have to do anything at all.

Imagine you're a new player and come into the world of MWO. You're given a good CBill boost to start with, and you're presented with the choice of buying IS and Clan mechs. Since you're starting and don't know a lot, and since there are more IS options in the store and they are cheaper, you would think you're getting more bang for your buck.

When you're hit with the paywall to adjust and drop the super ****** stock engines and weapons, you're earning dimes in Quickplay and FW, and you'll never win a FW match against the Clans.

Now, if you invested in Clantech, you can grind instantly from the get go. Seemed like you paid more, but in fact, you paid for a competent configured mech instead of 4 shitcans, and you're getting your investment back in farming crops.

[MischiefSC]

None. Tonnage isn't the fix. It's not even a band aid.

[BearFlag]

Vincent Quatermain, on 17 December 2016 - 01:18 PM, said:

The poll is simple. Assuming no changes to any other mechanics, what size do the invasion drop decks need to be in order for IS and Clan to be balanced?

I know some people want to change XL engine, or make it a 10v12 drop, and some people want more weapon changes, or quirk buffs. Set that aside for now, and let's try and quantify exactly how big the gap is.

Caveat: (That's Cah-Vee-Aht, not ca-vette )
PGI is doing this already, and is using drop deck size to dial in Invasion balance. They will almost certainly do it badly for the first few weeks, due to big units sloshing back and forth between the sides.

I predict that Forum Play participants will vastly overestimate this gap, perhaps enough to flip the script and see the Clans pushed back to their beachhead planets. This may even be worth doing, just to finally prove that IS Loyalists need to whine less and git gud.

But, for now, just be honest -- how big is the tech gap?

I didn't vote. Drop deck weights would only "help" for close matches. Otherwise, weight here is fixed and not helping wide mismatches. Mech n tech is not the answer if PGI can't build a system that actually balances. And if they could, it would still not solve the problem*. Even splitting queues (if population would allow) would only mitigate, not solve the problem.

The problem is match-level balance and only a dynamic matchmaker can come close to fixing it. Unfortunately, PGI has programmed themselves into a corner. The combination of low population and fixed drop decks removes the "player pool" approach to matchmaking. This means PSR is not usable (except for calculating disparity). What is left is other elements to adjust. Weight is a good one, but fixed drop deck weights complicates this. I suppose you could alternately try a 'mech pool' approach where all configured decks are used by the matchmaker to build the actual deck to be used. Bump weights up and down in a desperate attempt to match balance. Not ideal, but at least PSR/team/tech could all be considered.

BTW, I believe it's Kah-Way-Aht. The 'V' was not fricative in Classical Latin.

* Although truly balanced mech n tech might well help player distribution.

Edited by BearFlag, 17 December 2016 - 03:17 PM.

[Nighthawk513]

Or they could just put in a mechlab tutorial. A lot of the issue with IS is the fact it is easy to build a completely trash mech, while clans it is difficult. And clans are typically better stock versus IS as well.
I have actually met people who after 30 drops were still running stock mechs because they did not know what the mechlab was. All 5 of them were using only IS mechs because they were cheaper...

Another issue is the IS trials mostly suck, while the clan trials typically dont...

[BearFlag]

Nighthawk513, on 17 December 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

Or they could just put in a mechlab tutorial. A lot of the issue with IS is the fact it is easy to build a completely trash mech, while clans it is difficult. And clans are typically better stock versus IS as well.
I have actually met people who after 30 drops were still running stock mechs because they did not know what the mechlab was. All 5 of them were using only IS mechs because they were cheaper...

Another issue is the IS trials mostly suck, while the clan trials typically dont...

Oddly enough, this is not far off from Lore is it? I'm no Lorehead but I gather it was a quantity/quality dichotomy. That being the case, and given that PGI will not use actual numbers to adjust (12v11, 12v10), then weight seems a good proxy.

Edited by BearFlag, 17 December 2016 - 03:25 PM.

[Geg]

I think the tech gap is on this smallish side. With most of the challenge coming from the complications of building and managing an IS Unit and Drop Deck. A well organized unit is going to stomp pugs, and a unit with 3-4 top player per drop is going to crush a more middling one. My experience with the post patch FP matches PGI analysis in that the biggest difference are the player populations between the two, so something to even out the difference on the lower end of the scale is probably going to help. I think the 25T they have right now is a bit to low, It probably need to be closer 35T (but I voted 25T).

Edited by Geg, 17 December 2016 - 03:43 PM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

BearFlag, on 17 December 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

I didn't vote. Drop deck weights would only "help" for close matches. Otherwise, weight here is fixed and not helping wide mismatches.

I agree that we are using drop weight as if the problem is the tech gap, when really it's a skill gap. My question was how much you think we need to move it to be balanced. It sounds like you are arguing that the correct drop weights are 250 for Clans, and no difference for IS? (Because tech, in your opinion, isn't the problem.) Thus, that's what your vote should be.

[Vonbach]

Just change the XL engine and get it over with. Smaller double heats sinks would be nice as well.

[Monkey Lover]

Vonbach, on 17 December 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Just change the XL engine and get it over with. Smaller double heats sinks would be nice as well.

Never going to happen clanners will demand refunds from wave 1 mechs they bought even on release day. IS doesn't cry hard enough for refunds to get balanced mechs.

[Starbomber109]

I would rather the mechs get brought into balance with each other, that way we don't have to fool with silly drop deck 'imbalances'.

I personally kinda liked 240, or maybe I got used to it. It meant that you couldn't run all heavies (unless you wanted to run more or less weaker heavies)

[Vonbach]

Monkey Lover, on 17 December 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

Never going to happen clanners will demand refunds from wave 1 mechs they bought even on release day. IS doesn't cry hard enough for refunds to get balanced mechs.

Then prepare for clan-warrior online because thats what will happen. Hell its happening now.
IS mechs need a tech boost or people will stop playing IS out of frustration.

[BearFlag]

Vincent Quatermain, on 17 December 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

I agree that we are using drop weight as if the problem is the tech gap, when really it's a skill gap. My question was how much you think we need to move it to be balanced. It sounds like you are arguing that the correct drop weights are 250 for Clans, and no difference for IS? (Because tech, in your opinion, isn't the problem.) Thus, that's what your vote should be.

If we had a matchmaker, none of pure balance, asymmetric but equal or asymmetric and not equal would even matter. Further, attempting to balance at the small can only yield small results. Yes, I believe their is a tech difference which manifests in game play and game result. It is pronounced at some weight levels and probably nonexistent at others. My problem with drop deck weights as a balancing tool is that it's inflexible in a highly varied environment and it's too small to address big disparities in teams. It is generally only applicable to those closely fought matches where tech difference could influence the outcome in the first place. So it ONLY addresses this one circumstance. To that single end, 15 or 20 tons is plenty. In the big picture though, all of this is small potatoes.

FW sorely needs a matchmaker just to get on its feet. Multiple drop decks finally provides some meat that a matchmaker can work with. Hitherto, low population and single drop decks left only minor approaches. But with a pool of mechs, a matchmaker can actually do something. Namely, adjusting weight dynamically based on the calculated disparity. It could draw from the two main drop decks to buff a weak team's weight by building a third, actual game drop deck. A pug team might well come in with their heaviest mechs from both drop decks if lined up against a 12-man. More controversial (but from a matchmaking standpoint desirable), the OP team might come in with less than full weight. At any rate, the adjustments would be small or large proportional to disparity.

Like I said, not an ideal system. But at least it's a fricking matchmaker at last.

[Starbomber109]

Vonbach, on 17 December 2016 - 04:42 PM, said:

Then prepare for clan-warrior online because thats what will happen. Hell its happening now.
IS mechs need a tech boost or people will stop playing IS out of frustration.

Just let IS equip Clan weapons. I'd use ER Medium lasers if I could at least on a few mechs. The ER LPL is probably a monster weapon that I would LOVE to be able to use on my black knight!

[Zolaz]

If you think there needs to be a Matchmaker in Faction Play, maybe you should just play Quick Play? You already have your MM over there and you still get rolled. What makes you think it is going to change by bringing over a MM to FP?

[Starbomber109]

Zolaz, on 17 December 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

If you think there needs to be a Matchmaker in Faction Play, maybe you should just play Quick Play? You already have your MM over there and you still get rolled. What makes you think it is going to change by bringing over a MM to FP?

Easier to find matches. Before, you had to go fight on a planet...and pray someone would come fight with you.

[Graugger]

Keep IS tonnage lower than clans until IS learns to play FW.

[Wayland]

You guys need to really try and understand what the IS players are saying. The tech imbalance is a huge problem. There is talk about IS needing to organize better, but that boat has already sailed. The players that would organize this have left CW or are about too, they have simply had enough, and with factions being essentially non-existent, this problem will get worse. If you want to be competitive in CW and give yourself the best chance of winning (teamwork + superior tech), there is absolutely no reason to play on the IS side, especially for MERC units. PGI should implement an IS vs IS queue and watch the IS numbers rise again.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

Just keep taking 5 tons a day away till the I.S. actually wins a planet tag

[kapusta11]

IS mechs that used to be competitive should have their quirks restored. Clans keep getting more optimized mechs while all that IS keeps getting is nerfs.