125 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 21 December 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

You realise that your SXPL has more range than the cERSL...right? Your MXPL has more range than cMPL, too.

Unless you were going to adjust those ranges as well...?

The range advatntage is entirely intentional, I ahve zero intention of changing the Clan lasers to compensate. The X-pulse do less damage and possess far and away inferior damage-to-heat values to anything short of a PPC, which they tie with on two out of three. With the Clan option being more powerful and more efficient, I see no reason why they should also retain their range advantage.

[Y E O N N E]

Valhallan, on 21 December 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

There is a key difference between servitorship and actual slavery, you don't become a servitor against your will, you become one because technically you were a lazy bum who refused to contribute to society (the only exception are captured planets who are required to be like that for 5 years, this restricting of recently conquered planets is common to all though even if each house does it in their own way, after all it makes sense to keep a wary eye on people you just conquered from a different state/government). Also the reforms simply made it easier to earn citizenship if you were a servitor, you could always do it before the reforms it was just a lot harder when you were already there. The nobility system of both sides is also exactly the same, ruling over planets as their own personal fief and the citizens have to appeal to a "federal agent" if they start abusing their power.

Trying to get out of Servitorship was described as virtually impossible before the reform. Also, the bar for determining whether you performed enough service to be a citizen is set by the bureaucracy. Not a good combo. You could get in or get left depending on how the bureaucrats feel at that time. Unlike Davion, where everybody is a citizen with strong personal rights and freedoms.

Quote

Its not that davion is boring or uninteresting, its that they got massive plot armor pre dark-ages to the detriment of every other faction (this is also why i dont have a problem with dark age davions, because they finally got some of the crazy leaders that every other faction had in spades previously). In essence davion was the space marine faction of battletech for me, getting all the glory because of being the poster boy/author pet despite not really being any better than the other factions(IS) in terms of structure, also the FWL is more modern "normal" than the davions, being a democracy rather than the monarchy the davions use (at least before those crazy "reforms" that eventually turned them into a glorified monarchy too).

But that is because the authors want it that way. Davion gets plot armor specifically because they are intended to be the good guys. It is why you can't ever argue for the Clans being the good guys: they were never intended by the authors to be the good guys. Everything nice about any of them was added post-fact, to mature the story and make it more interesting, but they are still the bad guys first and everything else second. Even in the 3130s they continue to be the antagonists.

FWL are a sham democracy; in reality they are a military dictatorship. Davion is a Constitutional Monarchy, about where Britain was in the 19th century. Not perfect, but at least honest about what it is.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

The range advatntage is entirely intentional, I ahve zero intention of changing the Clan lasers to compensate. The X-pulse do less damage and possess far and away inferior damage-to-heat values to anything short of a PPC, which they tie with on two out of three. With the Clan option being more powerful and more efficient, I see no reason why they should also retain their range advantage.

Then you must be planning for longer durations than clan weapons, the biggest argument for the absurd durations is the range advantage. With damage being much closer to parity, the duration gap has to close when there is superior range on the same side as shorter durations.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Trying to get out of Servitorship was described as virtually impossible before the reform. Also, the bar for determining whether you performed enough service to be a citizen is set by the bureaucracy. Not a good combo. You could get in or get left depending on how the bureaucrats feel at that time. Unlike Davion, where everybody is a citizen with strong personal rights and freedoms.



But that is because the authors want it that way. Davion gets plot armor specifically because they are intended to be the good guys. It is why you can't ever argue for the Clans being the good guys: they were never intended by the authors to be the good guys. Everything nice about any of them was added post-fact, to mature the story and make it more interesting, but they are still the bad guys first and everything else second. Even in the 3130s they continue to be the antagonists.

FWL are a sham democracy; in reality they are a military dictatorship. Davion is a Constitutional Monarchy, about where Britain was in the 19th century. Not perfect, but at least honest about what it is.

I would argue that Blakists were the true villains as they were literally a threat to everyone, IS and Clan included.

Edited by Gyrok, 21 December 2016 - 02:33 PM.

[RestosIII]

TheArisen, on 21 December 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

WTB defensive tech!

Jman6 had a good idea,
"What would be interesting would be replacing the AMS slot with a customizable Defensive slot. You could slot in the classic Anti Missile Shield to reduce missile damage. Alternatively, you could add an Anti-Ballistic shield or Anti Energy Shield. Basically you give people a choice for what sort of threat they want to be stronger against. This meta-proofs it against any future changes in thinking.

'starts having PTSD flashbacks of the mech that starts with the letter R from MechAssault'

Anything with the word "shield" makes me very, very worried. Please don't.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

But that is because the authors want it that way. Davion gets plot armor specifically because they are intended to be the good guys. It is why you can't ever argue for the Clans being the good guys: they were never intended by the authors to be the good guys. Everything nice about any of them was added post-fact, to mature the story and make it more interesting, but they are still the bad guys first and everything else second. Even in the 3130s they continue to be the antagonists.

Yes, the Clans were originally written as the "big bads". That doesn't mean that all of the factions are inherently "EVIL!" like you seem to be campaigning for. Just like how in Star Wars EU there were "good guy" Imperial forces, and "bad guy" rebels. Crusaders generally = terrible, Wardens generally = complicated. Like any well-written fictional faction. Now stop telling me that Clan Diamond Shark is a horrible faction of horrible people that is somehow labeled entirely as bad guys, despite us having one of the lowest atrocity rates out of everyone in Battletech.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

RestosIII, on 21 December 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

'starts having PTSD flashbacks of the mech that starts with the letter R from MechAssault'

Anything with the word "shield" makes me very, very worried. Please don't.


Yes, the Clans were originally written as the "big bads". That doesn't mean that all of the factions are inherently "EVIL!" like you seem to be campaigning for. Just like how in Star Wars EU there were "good guy" Imperial forces, and "bad guy" rebels. Crusaders generally = terrible, Wardens generally = complicated. Like any well-written fictional faction. Now stop telling me that Clan Diamond Shark is a horrible faction of horrible people that is somehow labeled entirely as bad guys, despite us having one of the lowest atrocity rates out of everyone in Battletech.

Diamond Shark was obviously horrible.... that is why they went back to their original name Clan Sea Fox, had to wipe the stink of being Diamond Sharks off somehow.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 21 December 2016 - 03:09 PM.

[RestosIII]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 21 December 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

Diamond Shark was obviously horrible.... that is why they went back to their original name Clan Sea Fox, had to wipe the stink of being Diamond Sharks off somehow.

I'm not going to acknowledge that any more than I already have from a Steiner loyalist.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

RestosIII, on 21 December 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

I'm not going to acknowledge that any more than I already have from a Steiner loyalist.

Nope... I am a Skye Separatist!!!!! Steiners stole the throne when the Alistair Marsden died in battle... Lyrans are not German, that is Davion. Lyrans are Scottish, Irish, & Tamarian... Robert Marsden stole the power of Archons, that the Federation of Skye never agreed to give up. So, I am far and away from being a "Steiner loyalist"... I just like messing with you cause your signature is funny, still think it should read "Clan Diamond Shark... til 3100!" cause forever is erroneous

[Valhallan]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Also, the bar for determining whether you performed enough service to be a citizen is set by the bureaucracy. Not a good combo. You could get in or get left depending on how the bureaucrats feel at that time. Unlike Davion, where everybody is a citizen with strong personal rights and freedoms.

While this is a definite issue, the problem lies with the personnel and not with the system itself (also you got 2 tries, with the full rights as a ward of the state meaning you can complain in the 2 year in between period if you feel you got cheated, before you are designated a servitor). Davion citizens only get basic rights, capellan citizens basically have everything provided for them from education to healthcare. But both are still subject to the nobles governing them, those davion rights are no stronger than that the others have.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

But that is because the authors want it that way. Davion gets plot armor specifically because they are intended to be the good guys. It is why you can't ever argue for the Clans being the good guys: they were never intended by the authors to be the good guys. Everything nice about any of them was added post-fact, to mature the story and make it more interesting, but they are still the bad guys first and everything else second. Even in the 3130s they continue to be the antagonists.

With the way the battletech universe is there is no real "good guy", just like every other house, davion also did a load of shady stuff during the succession wars. Yes they got plot armor because they were the author's chosen protagonists, the problem was they were basically the protagonists all the time and as a result until the dark ages every other house was filled with crazy leaders for no reason whatsoever (making the mind boggle on how they even retained power), it felt like the only time they gained competent leaders (sun tzu for capella) was to make it seem like davion wasn't beating on the helpless.

Edited by Valhallan, 21 December 2016 - 04:20 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Valhallan, on 21 December 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

While this is a definite issue, the problem lies with the personnel and not with the system itself (also you got 2 tries, with the full rights as a ward of the state meaning you can complain in the 2 year in between period if you feel you got cheated, before you are designated a servitor). Davion citizens only get basic rights, capellan citizens basically have everything provided for them from education to healthcare.



With the way the battletech universe is there is no real "good guy", just like every other house, davion also did a load of shady stuff during the succession wars. Yes they got plot armor because they were the author's chosen protagonists, the problem was they were basically the protagonists all the time and as a result until the dark ages every other house was filled with crazy leaders for no reason whatsoever (making the mind boggle on how they even retained power), it felt like the only time they gained competent leaders (sun tzu for capella) was to make it seem like davion wasn't beating on the helpless.

Basically it is the fantasy every Totalitarian State tells its slaves... that they might someday not be slaves, while they will always be slaves.

[Valhallan]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 21 December 2016 - 04:19 PM, said:

Basically it is the fantasy every Totalitarian State tells its slaves... that they might someday not be slaves, while they will always be slaves.

Its the fantasy every government tells its citizens, you're free up to the point that its in the national interest for it to be otherwise .

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 21 December 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

Then you must be planning for longer durations than clan weapons, the biggest argument for the absurd durations is the range advantage. With damage being much closer to parity, the duration gap has to close when there is superior range on the same side as shorter durations.

What are you talking about? Damage hasn't changed, and it's not at all closer to parity. It's still 6 per gun with the Medium X-Pulse. Duration stays identical to standard pulse. I know you are thinking of the old TDR-5SS, but this is not going to be the same thing. Not even close. Seven MXPL at 6 heat each with ghost would result in 46.6 points of heat - the same as seven cMPL - for only 42 damage - less than the 56 you get out of the same number of cMPL. To add, you can't bring 26 DHS to keep it cold or a TC1. You are going to get 22 at best. And the damage per-burn is even similar; 70 out of the MXPL, 65.9 out of the cMPL.

It's already fair, no extra tweaks necessary. In fact, I could probably ease up on the heat for the Medium and Large X-pulse by one point, but I keep it high for safety.

Quote

I would argue that Blakists were the true villains as they were literally a threat to everyone, IS and Clan included.

Those guys who were technically conspiring with the Clans before they got found out and decided to spin themselves off into their own faction, and before they decided to throw an interstellar temper tantrum and lash out at everybody? Those Blakists?

Yeah, they are pretty crap.

Valhallan, on 21 December 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

With the way the battletech universe is there is no real "good guy", just like every other house, davion also did a load of shady stuff during the succession wars. Yes they got plot armor because they were the author's chosen protagonists, the problem was they were basically the protagonists all the time and as a result until the dark ages every other house was filled with crazy leaders for no reason whatsoever (making the mind boggle on how they even retained power), it felt like the only time they gained competent leaders (sun tzu for capella) was to make it seem like davion wasn't beating on the helpless.

The very fact that the authors went out of their way to show Davion as being just kind of makes the case for itself, man. It doesn't matter whether you think that their choice was interesting, it simply is. The whole FedCom faction was supposed to be an indicator that Davion had the "mandate," so to speak, to rebuild and reuinfy the Inner Sphere. That was the symbology there. Just be happy that the writers decided to later take a darker turn and dissolve it to make their good-guys less goody-two-shoes and more interesting.

RestosIII, on 21 December 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

despite us having one of the lowest atrocity rates out of everyone in Battletech.

It's not about quantity, it's about quality. Others may have killed some innocents, but Clan Diamond Shark aims higher than simply slaughter.They managed to directly doom 83% of the Clan population to second-class citizenship for centuries! Bravo!

[Imperius]

Go Clan Diamond Shark!

[Valhallan]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

The very fact that the authors went out of their way to show Davion as being just kind of makes the case for itself, man. It doesn't matter whether you think that their choice was interesting, it simply is. The whole FedCom faction was supposed to be an indicator that Davion had the "mandate," so to speak, to rebuild and reuinfy the Inner Sphere. That was the symbology there. Just be happy that the writers decided to later take a darker turn and dissolve it to make their good-guys less goody-two-shoes and more interesting.

Eh protagonist =/= good guy, no matter how far they went it really on resulted in lone characters appearing as goody goody(admittedly the ones with power but still), davions structure didn't change a whit. The fact that the authors also made clear that every house was dirty from the fall of the star league to the first succession wars, speaks for itself, there are no good guy houses only interests.
Actually i saw the dissolution of FedCom as them continuing the franchise (just like the jihad temper tantrum), if the FedCom remained unified they could have basically steamrolled the rest of the IS and it would have been the "end" of battletech as we knew it (whether this change would've been for the better or worse, who can say?) ,

[Alan Davion]

Valhallan, on 21 December 2016 - 06:17 PM, said:

Eh protagonist =/= good guy, no matter how far they went it really on resulted in lone characters appearing as goody goody(admittedly the ones with power but still), davions structure didn't change a whit. The fact that the authors also made clear that every house was dirty from the fall of the star league to the first succession wars, speaks for itself, there are no good guy houses only interests.
Actually i saw the dissolution of FedCom as them continuing the franchise (just like the jihad temper tantrum), if the FedCom remained unified they could have basically steamrolled the rest of the IS and it would have been the "end" of battletech as we knew it (whether this change would've been for the better or worse, who can say?) ,

Respectfully, I disagree with some of what you say.

I do agree that, when Stefan Amaris killed the young leader of House Cameron of the Star League, I forget his first name unfortunately, and the leaders of the five Noble Houses immediately declared themselves First Lord and began the Succession Wars, yeah, they were all equally at fault.

I do however think that House Davion was the one that changed the most, especially when Hanse became First Prince after his older brother was killed in combat with Kurita.

However, I honestly believe that had the FedCom remained an actual thing, and if Omi Kurita hadn't been killed by Katherine out of spite of her brother Victor, that would have unified 3/5 of the Inner Sphere, and they very well could have well and truly legitimized the Second Star League.

They wouldn't have had to steamroll Marik or Liao. They would however have to steamroll the Clans if they didn't get their s*** wired and join the new Star League, which was supposed to be their purpose from the start. And in a way they did create a new Star League, by forcing the Inner Sphere to set aside their differences.

Sure they didn't 'directly' create it, which was of course the dream of every Clan to rebuild the Star League in their image.

[Valhallan]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

Respectfully, I disagree with some of what you say.

I do agree that, when Stefan Amaris killed the young leader of House Cameron of the Star League, I forget his first name unfortunately, and the leaders of the five Noble Houses immediately declared themselves First Lord and began the Succession Wars, yeah, they were all equally at fault.

I do however think that House Davion was the one that changed the most, especially when Hanse became First Prince after his older brother was killed in combat with Kurita.

However, I honestly believe that had the FedCom remained an actual thing, and if Omi Kurita hadn't been killed by Katherine out of spite of her brother Victor, that would have unified 3/5 of the Inner Sphere, and they very well could have well and truly legitimized the Second Star League.

They wouldn't have had to steamroll Marik or Liao. They would however have to steamroll the Clans if they didn't get their s*** wired and join the new Star League, which was supposed to be their purpose from the start. And in a way they did create a new Star League, by forcing the Inner Sphere to set aside their differences.

Sure they didn't 'directly' create it, which was of course the dream of every Clan to rebuild the Star League in their image.

Disagreeing is fine its part of life

While Hanse did restart R&D again as well as joined in the fedcom, i don't remember him actually changing any part of the feudal government system of Davion. (or any goody goody type change)

I agree that the FedCom would have conquered the Inner Sphere, but since it would be likely due to military muscle rather than a diplomatic understanding i would hesitate to call it a star league.

While marik is questionable (unless davion does that whole body double thing again), the fedcom would've likely had to steamroll liao and the combine, both of whom had just recovered from their losses against the fedcom and kinda wanted vengeance. They might even form a temporary alliance of sorts (supported by comstar probably) to try to counter the FedCom dominance.

[RestosIII]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

It's not about quantity, it's about quality. Others may have killed some innocents, but Clan Diamond Shark aims higher than simply slaughter.They managed to directly doom 83% of the Clan population to second-class citizenship for centuries! Bravo!

Yes, we personally ruined everyone's lives by trying to make the Iron Womb not ****, we actively decided how every other Clan treated their members, and are also responsible for every single death caused by the other Clans in the invasion because we didn't commit suicide trying to stop it. /S

You're grasping at straws to make CDS out as bad guys here. Next you're going to blame us for the FedCom Civil War, Jihad, and your puppy dying, huh? About the worst we did was have a a couple Khans that made decisions without the population voting, had a single Khan that supported CSJ and CJF, and Freebirth military personnel being snubbed during the invasion. We embraced freebirths until that ****** showed up, and embraced them again as soon as he "left."

Oh, and on the subject of leaving the homeworlds to join the Inner Sphere? Yeah, good luck packing up and getting all of our population into Inner Sphere space before the other Clans hunted us down and commit genocide against us. That's assuming that the Inner Sphere would even accept us instead of trying to murder us for our resources, technology, and out of fear. Unlike Davion, I don't think we'd have the super plot/favoritism armor to survive that sort of stupid decision.

But hey, the Clans were originally written as bad guys for gameplay reasons, right? That means all of them have to be evil and can never be morally good. /S







Oh, and on the original subject of this thread, past all my salt over this, yes the IS needs T2 gear already if I somehow haven't said it.

[Alan Davion]

Valhallan, on 21 December 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

Disagreeing is fine its part of life

While Hanse did restart R&D again as well as joined in the fedcom, i don't remember him actually changing any part of the feudal government system of Davion. (or any goody goody type change)

I agree that the FedCom would have conquered the Inner Sphere, but since it would be likely due to military muscle rather than a diplomatic understanding i would hesitate to call it a star league.

While marik is questionable (unless davion does that whole body double thing again), the fedcom would've likely had to steamroll liao and the combine, both of whom had just recovered from their losses against the fedcom and kinda wanted vengeance. They might even form a temporary alliance of sorts (supported by comstar probably) to try to counter the FedCom dominance.

Actually in 3022 Kurita, Liao and Marik did join a loose alliance known as the Kapteyn Accords in response to the joining of Davion and Steiner.

However, when I was talking about the FedCom not needing to steamroll Marik or Liao, I was referring to the events leading up to the end of the FedCom Civil War.

If Katherine Steiner hadn't killed Omi Kurita, who had a child by Victor Davion, when they finally kicked Katherine out of the Inner Sphere and gave her to Clan Wolf, specifically to Vlad Ward, the child of Victor Steiner-Davion and Omi Kurita would have ruled 3/5 of the Inner Sphere and they could have created a new ruling family for the Star League.

Marik and Liao would probably not be happy about it all, but they'd fall into line just due to the perceived threat of three whole militaries coming down on their heads.

I seriously doubt Victor would actually order a whole military campaign against Marik and Liao, though Sun-Tzu Liao, being as much of a schemer as his mother and grandfather ever were, might actually have been stupid enough to actually try and fight three entire Successor States. Which I honestly would have loved to read a novel where that happened. I always hated the Liaos.

[Valhallan]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 07:46 PM, said:

If Katherine Steiner hadn't killed Omi Kurita, who had a child by Victor Davion, when they finally kicked Katherine out of the Inner Sphere and gave her to Clan Wolf, specifically to Vlad Ward, the child of Victor Steiner-Davion and Omi Kurita would have ruled 3/5 of the Inner Sphere and they could have created a new ruling family for the Star League.

Marik and Liao would probably not be happy about it all, but they'd fall into line just due to the perceived threat of three whole militaries coming down on their heads.

I seriously doubt Victor would actually order a whole military campaign against Marik and Liao, though Sun-Tzu Liao, being as much of a schemer as his mother and grandfather ever were, might actually have been stupid enough to actually try and fight three entire Successor States. Which I honestly would have loved to read a novel where that happened. I always hated the Liaos.

The child supplanting the already designated heirs to the combine is really doubtful, that would require a kind of political maneuvering by the fedcom that i don't see going well . While it was attempted by some combine elements, the moment his parentage became known that kinda talk stopped immediately (some even sepuku'd just because they thought about it).

Given the thing with St Ives, and that the confederation is hardly gonna just lie on the floor, Victor would definitely steamroll Liao.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

RestosIII, on 21 December 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

But hey, the Clans were originally written as bad guys for gameplay reasons, right? That means all of them have to be evil and can never be morally good. /S

The Khan of the Diamond Sharks was there and participated in the refusal to follow the instructions of Nicholas Kereskys letter with the rest to stop being the Clans. so dont try to weasel out of it now

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 07:46 PM, said:

Actually in 3022 Kurita, Liao and Marik did join a loose alliance known as the Kapteyn Accords in response to the joining of Davion and Steiner.

However, when I was talking about the FedCom not needing to steamroll Marik or Liao, I was referring to the events leading up to the end of the FedCom Civil War.

If Katherine Steiner hadn't killed Omi Kurita, who had a child by Victor Davion, when they finally kicked Katherine out of the Inner Sphere and gave her to Clan Wolf, specifically to Vlad Ward, the child of Victor Steiner-Davion and Omi Kurita would have ruled 3/5 of the Inner Sphere and they could have created a new ruling family for the Star League.

Marik and Liao would probably not be happy about it all, but they'd fall into line just due to the perceived threat of three whole militaries coming down on their heads.

I seriously doubt Victor would actually order a whole military campaign against Marik and Liao, though Sun-Tzu Liao, being as much of a schemer as his mother and grandfather ever were, might actually have been stupid enough to actually try and fight three entire Successor States. Which I honestly would have loved to read a novel where that happened. I always hated the Liaos.

well Victors son ended up being Khan of Clan Wolf & announced himself to be Archon of the Lyran Commonwealth... Alaric Ward, who is my favorite character. A Khan of Clan Wolf with a Ward bloodname that is the son of Victor & Katrina Steiner-Davion... not the same as what could have happened with Omi, but his son still did do some big things.