125 replies to this topic

[Alex Morgaine]

O_o seriously? Dark age?

[Rift Hawk]

New tech really doesn't serve a purpose unless the IS XL engines aren't complete trash in comparison to the Clan XLs. If that happens, I'm all for new tech. Especially rotary ACs and Heavy lasers. Then Clans won't dominate at every range, like they currently do and won't have the XL weight advantage.

[Battlemaster56]

Imperial X, on 21 December 2016 - 01:26 AM, said:

New tech really doesn't serve a purpose unless the IS XL engines aren't complete trash in comparison to the Clan XLs. If that happens, I'm all for new tech. Especially rotary ACs and Heavy lasers. Then Clans won't dominate at every range, like they currently do and won't have the XL weight advantage.

Heavy lasers are clan only weapon theirs no Is equivalent.

[Valhallan]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 December 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

The only real good-guy faction is Davion. All of the others are typically portrayed as foolish at best, actively antagonistic at worst, and it's not an accident.

Yea, its because of being the author pet faction though (like how wolf is for the clans), frankly for all the poo flung at liao pre dark ages their societal system is way better than Davion imo, the only flaw is that they get a lot of crazy chancellors.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

naterist, on 21 December 2016 - 12:39 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...n_Hope_Doctrine

It was a secret letter pertaining to this.

Not really the Hope Doctrine... that was Alexander Kerensky during the Exodus, this was a specific letter that was to opened like 50 or a 100 years after Nicholas Kerenskys death. The secret group that had a surviving copy of the letter was within Clan Goliath Scorpion iirc... they married and had natural children, they would also include members from other Clans though not as many. The Lorekeepers or some such... I used it in a Battletech game years ago cause I had a guy who hated Clans and he was the GM of the other Battletech game who routinely was mad at me for being a Power Gamer but really just cause i would decimate the matches we would fight. So he made this troll build to be the most unClan PC ever... little did he know that i was able to pull out a specific Lore book and with just a minor retweaking (as well making his character better cause he could not build well) I was able to fit his troll build into an actual character based in the world.

Wars of Reaving is where i remember it being from, but maybe that was just the setting I used it in for the RPG... I will pull out my books and find it if anyone really wants me too.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 21 December 2016 - 06:48 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Valhallan, on 21 December 2016 - 02:23 AM, said:

Yea, its because of being the author pet faction though (like how wolf is for the clans), frankly for all the poo flung at liao pre dark ages their societal system is way better than Davion imo, the only flaw is that they get a lot of crazy chancellors.

I don't think so, Liao is a slave state. That's what Servitors are. Until the reforms of 3057, the Servitors also had no real way to escape their status and, even after, the caste still exists. Davion has no such caste, and citizens aren't necessarily beholden to their nobles, either.

The Capellan Confederation is a perverted form of the kind if meritocracy you see in Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

I get that the Davions are boring and uninteresting, but that is because they are so normal, which is typical for the good guys in any story. Nobody wants to play the Rebels, they want to be the Empire. Batman is really not the star in his own stories, the villains are. So on and so forth.

[Alan Davion]

AbyssalTyrant, on 20 December 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

Doing nothing isn't a much better solution. Also all these people hyped for mw5 , what has pgi ever done to make you think that the game will be good!? I feel like a crazy person when I see people saying it will be good or that it will be the franchise savior. You know it's still pgi making it right?

The game will be good because the game is set BEFORE the Clan invasion so there's no Clan tech to F*** UP THE G** D*** GAME BALANCE. Plain and simple really.

Yeonne Greene, on 20 December 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

The only real good-guy faction is Davion. All of the others are typically portrayed as foolish at best, actively antagonistic at worst, and it's not an accident.

And I would bet you the "lore reason" that causes most people to be Clan afficianados is for the 'Mech superiority. Not the social aspects, and certainly not because Kerensky was some kind of icon to be lauded or worshiped.

Davion occasionally used tactics that some might call underhanded, especially when ComStar tried to pull "Operation: Scorpion", but generally I agree that Davion were the "#1" good guys, followed by Steiner.

Kurita were rather antagonistic under Takashi Kurita, but things quickly began to change under Theodore, and later Hohiro Kurita. Victor Davion and Hohiro Kurita actually became good friends at one point.

House Marik are the "redheaded stepchild" of the Houses I think, being divided with constant in-fighting they were no threat to anyone really.

House Liao were the only truly evil and openly antagonistic faction I can think of.

Yeonne Greene, on 20 December 2016 - 10:36 PM, said:

Heavy Lasers are Clan Tech, and they are ridiculously powerful.

The IS answer to Clan Pulse would likely be X-Pulse, but it's going to depend heavily on PGI giving them range that exceeds the Clan Pulse at the expense of damage-to-heat because otherwise they are just just heavier IS Medium Lasers.

Actually the IS X-Pulse laser only equals the range of the "normal" Clan pulse lasers, and they were the answer to the Clans "ER Pulse" lasers. I want to say the IS answer to the Heavy Laser is the Plasma Rifle, but not knowing their TT stats or their background I can't confirm that.

Imperial X, on 21 December 2016 - 01:26 AM, said:

New tech really doesn't serve a purpose unless the IS XL engines aren't complete trash in comparison to the Clan XLs. If that happens, I'm all for new tech. Especially rotary ACs and Heavy lasers. Then Clans won't dominate at every range, like they currently do and won't have the XL weight advantage.

New Tech brings with it the Light Fusion Engine. The LFE doesn't insta-kill you when you lose a side torso. The LFE only gets you 25% weight savings compared to the XLE's 50% weight savings.

Still, 25% more weight to play with over a STD with no threat of insta-death from an ST loss is nothing to sneeze at.

[Y E O N N E]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

Davion occasionally used tactics that some might call underhanded, especially when ComStar tried to pull "Operation: Scorpion", but generally I agree that Davion were the "#1" good guys, followed by Steiner.

Davion was playing ComStar's game. Given that the state of the IS is ComStar's doing, the whole faction deserves nothing less than eradication.

Quote

Kurita were rather antagonistic under Takashi Kurita, but things quickly began to change under Theodore, and later Hohiro Kurita. Victor Davion and Hohiro Kurita actually became good friends at one point.

Kurita are depicted as a tragic house. They weren't evil until that whole shindig during the Amaris Coup embittered them.

Quote

House Marik are the "redheaded stepchild" of the Houses I think, being divided with constant in-fighting they were no threat to anyone really.

But they do like to start wars they generally can't win, stirring up trouble for no real reason.

Quote

Actually the IS X-Pulse laser only equals the range of the "normal" Clan pulse lasers, and they were the answer to the Clans "ER Pulse" lasers. I want to say the IS answer to the Heavy Laser is the Plasma Rifle, but not knowing their TT stats or their background I can't confirm that.

Not even that. TT values give X-pulse the same range as standard lasers, i.e. Medium X-Pulse has a long range of 9, translating to 270 meters in MWO.

For X-Pulse to be worth anything in MWO, they need to basically have the same range as IS ER lasers save the large, which can get by with standard LL range. This is because giving them Clan Pulse range makes them inferior to Clan pulse due to less damage, giving them standard laser range makes them inferior to standard lasers due to more heat and weight, and anything below that makes them redundant with normal pulse...except hotter.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 December 2016 - 07:57 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Not even that. TT values give X-pulse the same range as standard lasers, i.e. Medium X-Pulse has a long range of 9, translating to 270 meters in MWO.

For X-Pulse to be worth anything in MWO, they need to basically have the same range as IS ER lasers save the large, which can get by with standard LL range. This is because giving them Clan Pulse range makes them inferior to Clan pulse due to less damage, giving them standard laser range makes them inferior to standard lasers do to more heat and weight, and anything below that makes them redundant with normal pulse...except hotter.

My only experience with ER Pulse or X Pulse was from MW4, where IS X-Pulse had the same range as "normal" Clan Pulse lasers, and Clan ER Pulse had a range between the "normal" Clan Pulse lasers and their ER lasers.

[Y E O N N E]

ER pulse would be completely redundant in MWO. There isn't enough room for them to exist between normal Clan Pulse and Clan ER lasers that wouldn't immediately obsolete one or the other.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

For X-Pulse to be worth anything in MWO, they need to basically have the same range as IS ER lasers save the large, which can get by with standard LL range. This is because giving them Clan Pulse range makes them inferior to Clan pulse due to less damage, giving them standard laser range makes them inferior to standard lasers due to more heat and weight, and anything below that makes them redundant with normal pulse...except hotter.

I would not say that at all...

I would do this for Normal/ER/XPL for IS:

SL: 125m 3dmg 1heat

SPL: 100m 3.5dmg 2heat

ERSL: 150m 3dmg 2heat

SXPL: 125m 5dmg 3heat

ML: 295m 5dmg 3heat

MPL: 240m 6dmg 4heat

ERML: 350m 5dmg 4heat

MXPL: 295m 7dmg 6heat

LL: 495m 9dmg 7heat

LPL: 400m 10dmg 8heat

ERLL: 725m 9dmg 8heat

LXPL: 495m 11dmg 9heat

I think that does everything justice quite well...personally. Though, it would also require removing the fall off nerfs to clan lasers...

Edited by Gyrok, 21 December 2016 - 09:37 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

I would rather see:

SXPL: 240 m, 4dmg, 4heat
MXPL: 360 m, 6dmg, 6heat
LXPL: 450 m, 11dmg, 9heat

It provides more value without stepping on the toes of any existing weapons . Your version of the SXPL makes it a shorter range version of the ML, which is redundant in my opinion since I feel that the ML needs its duration reduced to 0.82s, which is on the cusp of the beginning of diminishing returns for less duration. It also needs its cooldown shortened to between 2.5 and 2.75 seconds, given its range bracket and how easy it is to bowl it over with cERSL

[TheArisen]

WTB defensive tech!

Jman6 had a good idea,
"What would be interesting would be replacing the AMS slot with a customizable Defensive slot. You could slot in the classic Anti Missile Shield to reduce missile damage. Alternatively, you could add an Anti-Ballistic shield or Anti Energy Shield. Basically you give people a choice for what sort of threat they want to be stronger against. This meta-proofs it against any future changes in thinking.

They could provide a 15-25% damage reduction. I would keep the look of the AMS attack animation because I think it's really cool, but I would make it visual and personal only. The other two should also have some sort of visual element that lets the attacker know, what weapon type you're strong against.

Mechs with multiple AMS or defensive slots like the Kitfox and Nova could also fit a different defensive weapon type in. To make it more balanced, you might make adding two or even all 3 to your mech less effective. (e.g: 25% vs energy, 15% vs ballistic, 10% vs missile).

Of course if you really don't want to deal with that, you could always just make it an upgrade purchase like Endo or Ferro."

I know these aren't all in timeline but for the sake of gameplay, Pgi should move up/bend the timeline.

1. Armored Components, extra internal on a single weapon/equipment. Needs some buffs to justify weight. http://www.sarna.net...ored_Components

2. Modular Armor, extra armor on an individual section. The simplest and most risk free option, imo. http://www.sarna.net...i/Modular_Armor

3. Reflective Armor, anti energy weapon armor. Would need to be nerfed/watered down to not be OP. http://www.sarna.net...eflective_Armor

4. Reactive Armor, anti ballistic weapon armor. Would need to be brought in line with Reflective. http://www.sarna.net.../Reactive_Armor

5. Hardened Armor, extra heavy armor, restricts movement. Good option, self-balancing. http://www.sarna.net.../Hardened_Armor

6. Heavy Ferro, heavier ferro.
http://www.sarna.net...o-Fibrous_Armor

7. Light Ferro, lighter ferro (IS attempt to recreate clan FF). http://www.sarna.net...o-Fibrous_Armor

8. Blue Shield Dampener, anti ppc shield, could be an anti energy shield you can activate for a limited time. Would need to be modified extensivly to be viable & not make PPCs extinct.
http://www.sarna.net...le_Field_Damper

9. Laser AMS, it's AMS, but with lasers. No ammo needs but increases heat. http://www.sarna.net...-Missile_System

Edited by TheArisen, 21 December 2016 - 10:09 AM.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

I would rather see:

SXPL: 240 m, 4dmg, 4heat
MXPL: 360 m, 6dmg, 6heat
LXPL: 450 m, 11dmg, 9heat

It provides more value without stepping on the toes of any existing weapons . Your version of the SXPL makes it a shorter range version of the ML, which is redundant in my opinion since I feel that the ML needs its duration reduced to 0.82s, which is on the cusp of the beginning of diminishing returns for less duration. It also needs its cooldown shortened to between 2.5 and 2.75 seconds, given its range bracket and how easy it is to bowl it over with cERSL

You realise that your SXPL has more range than the cERSL...right? Your MXPL has more range than cMPL, too.

Unless you were going to adjust those ranges as well...?

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 21 December 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

You realise that your SXPL has more range than the cERSL...right? Your MXPL has more range than cMPL, too.

Unless you were going to adjust those ranges as well...?

Why can't it?

It has more heat and less damage (SL)

[Valhallan]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

I don't think so, Liao is a slave state. That's what Servitors are. Until the reforms of 3057, the Servitors also had no real way to escape their status and, even after, the caste still exists. Davion has no such caste, and citizens aren't necessarily beholden to their nobles, either.

The Capellan Confederation is a perverted form of the kind if meritocracy you see in Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

I get that the Davions are boring and uninteresting, but that is because they are so normal, which is typical for the good guys in any story. Nobody wants to play the Rebels, they want to be the Empire. Batman is really not the star in his own stories, the villains are. So on and so forth.

There is a key difference between servitorship and actual slavery, you don't become a servitor against your will, you become one because technically you were a lazy bum who refused to contribute to society (the only exception are captured planets who are required to be like that for 5 years, this restricting of recently conquered planets is common to all though even if each house does it in their own way, after all it makes sense to keep a wary eye on people you just conquered from a different state/government). Also the reforms simply made it easier to earn citizenship if you were a servitor, you could always do it before the reforms it was just a lot harder when you were already there. The nobility system of both sides is also exactly the same, ruling over planets as their own personal fief and the citizens have to appeal to a "federal agent" if they start abusing their power.

Its not that davion is boring or uninteresting, its that they got massive plot armor pre dark-ages to the detriment of every other faction (this is also why i dont have a problem with dark age davions, because they finally got some of the crazy leaders that every other faction had in spades previously). In essence davion was the space marine faction of battletech for me, getting all the glory because of being the poster boy/author pet despite not really being any better than the other factions(IS) in terms of structure, also the FWL is more modern "normal" than the davions, being a democracy rather than the monarchy the davions use (at least before those crazy "reforms" that eventually turned them into a glorified monarchy too).

Edited by Valhallan, 21 December 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

TheArisen, on 21 December 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

WTB defensive tech!

Jman6 had a good idea,
"What would be interesting would be replacing the AMS slot with a customizable Defensive slot. You could slot in the classic Anti Missile Shield to reduce missile damage. Alternatively, you could add an Anti-Ballistic shield or Anti Energy Shield. Basically you give people a choice for what sort of threat they want to be stronger against. This meta-proofs it against any future changes in thinking.

They could provide a 15-25% damage reduction. I would keep the look of the AMS attack animation because I think it's really cool, but I would make it visual and personal only. The other two should also have some sort of visual element that lets the attacker know, what weapon type you're strong against.

Mechs with multiple AMS or defensive slots like the Kitfox and Nova could also fit a different defensive weapon type in. To make it more balanced, you might make adding two or even all 3 to your mech less effective. (e.g: 25% vs energy, 15% vs ballistic, 10% vs missile).

Of course if you really don't want to deal with that, you could always just make it an upgrade purchase like Endo or Ferro."

I know these aren't all in timeline but for the sake of gameplay, Pgi should move up/bend the timeline.

1. Armored Components, extra internal on a single weapon/equipment. Needs some buffs to justify weight. http://www.sarna.net...ored_Components

2. Modular Armor, extra armor on an individual section. The simplest and most risk free option, imo. http://www.sarna.net...i/Modular_Armor

3. Reflective Armor, anti energy weapon armor. Would need to be nerfed/watered down to not be OP. http://www.sarna.net...eflective_Armor

4. Reactive Armor, anti ballistic weapon armor. Would need to be brought in line with Reflective. http://www.sarna.net.../Reactive_Armor

5. Hardened Armor, extra heavy armor, restricts movement. Good option, self-balancing. http://www.sarna.net.../Hardened_Armor

6. Heavy Ferro, heavier ferro.
http://www.sarna.net...o-Fibrous_Armor

7. Light Ferro, lighter ferro (IS attempt to recreate clan FF). http://www.sarna.net...o-Fibrous_Armor

8. Blue Shield Dampener, anti ppc shield, could be an anti energy shield you can activate for a limited time. Would need to be modified extensivly to be viable & not make PPCs extinct.
http://www.sarna.net...le_Field_Damper

9. Laser AMS, it's AMS, but with lasers. No ammo needs but increases heat. http://www.sarna.net...-Missile_System

There is some beauty with defense equipment - when ever a meta seems to center around a single weapon system you could take a defense that would neuter the advantage.
This could even be the measure to end all boats ;-)

[Alan Davion]

Karl Streiger, on 21 December 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

There is some beauty with defense equipment - when ever a meta seems to center around a single weapon system you could take a defense that would neuter the advantage.
This could even be the measure to end all boats ;-)

Which is exactly why I'll bet it'll never happen.

[Karl Streiger]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

Which is exactly why I'll bet it'll never happen.

Unfortunately behind the "booh" timeline wall

[TheArisen]

Karl Streiger, on 21 December 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

There is some beauty with defense equipment - when ever a meta seems to center around a single weapon system you could take a defense that would neuter the advantage.
This could even be the measure to end all boats ;-)

Exactly. Anytime something becomes the meta you could just equip your mech with the appropriate defense.

These techs also open things up to defense minded builds or even push leading builds. Of course, being able to equip defensive tech would likely lead to a slightly higher ttk as well.