125 replies to this topic

[Gentleman Reaper]

Snazzy Dragon, on 19 December 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

Doesn't matter because Russ tweeted out that tech difference doesn't matter.

So clearly the head of PGI does not understand the balance of their own game.

Therefore, you can give up hope.

When did he say that? Russ said that after the skill tree is released they would focus on balancing tech bases

[Gaden Phoenix]

Lets just remove IS tech and rename clan tech with IS names... That will standardise all the weapons.

That will solve all the issues. Introducing more weapons will just make balancing way harder. They only thing they should/can do is do a tech refresh of IS weapons to make then more standardised to Clan weapons, which will then have another huge up-roar from the lore crowd.

Frankly it is damned if you do, or damned if you dont. So PGI just decides to be damned by doing less and balancing via mechs quriks.

[Duke Nedo]

I can't get my head around why this needs to be so hard. Best weapons 2xGauss+2xPPC.

Clan gets that for: 36 tons, 16 slots.
IS gets that for: 44 tons, 20 slots.

That's a 8 ton/4 slots penalty right there. If we would say (not even true for most mechs though, only a select few) that structure quirks make up for the IS XL engine death, does for example the Maulers get enough quirks to compensate for a 8 ton handicap? 8 tons! And some guys complain about 5 tons of locked jump jets that actually jump, etc etc.

Just fix balance already, the faction balance work done by PGI is consistently uninformed and just inadequate. If I did that bad a job for this long I would be unemployed long ago. It's not that hard. Most Tier 1 players would be able to significantly improve the base tech stats in less than a working day, even without having access to the big data that PGI has. There's no excuse to allow one faction to be flat out better. Bad faction balance will kill any attempts at faction war. The only way to spread the comp teams between factions over time is to improve balance.

[Karl Streiger]

Unlock Omnis ES and FF - this is more important as you think. Simple because you can't create parity between IS and Clans when there is no parity between Clan and Clan
Of course squikrs'n'quirks might reduce the edge.
Another more important factor weapon role - take the Jenner 7D as a premium example - why to run it with 4-MLAS and a Medium SRM
Why not to run it (If possible with 2 Heavy SRM) or 6 MLAS how should the performance differ - what about to switch to Light SRM where is the reason to have SRM 2s?
When you can't answer this questions you can't bring new weapons - because you might create new powercreep - Light PPC anyone?

[Alan Davion]

Gaden Phoenix, on 19 December 2016 - 11:52 PM, said:

Lets just remove IS tech and rename clan tech with IS names... That will standardise all the weapons.

That will solve all the issues. Introducing more weapons will just make balancing way harder. They only thing they should/can do is do a tech refresh of IS weapons to make then more standardised to Clan weapons, which will then have another huge up-roar from the lore crowd.

Frankly it is damned if you do, or damned if you dont. So PGI just decides to be damned by doing less and balancing via mechs quriks.

So in effect giving the IS the ability to mix-tech. Yeah, that'll go over REAL WELL INDEED. The only weapons that need to be added in are the IS ER Small/Medium, UAC 2/10/20, LBX 2/5/20, Streak 4/6.

You can't balance the Clan versions of these weapons without having the equivalent IS versions in the game.

Duke Nedo, on 20 December 2016 - 12:23 AM, said:

Most Tier 1 players would be able to significantly improve the base tech stats in less than a working day, even without having access to the big data that PGI has. There's no excuse to allow one faction to be flat out better. Bad faction balance will kill any attempts at faction war. The only way to spread the comp teams between factions over time is to improve balance.

Except I'm willing to bet that a vast majority of T1 players are also Clan players. And they probably don't want their precious tech advantage taken away.

Did you read what I said about the M16A3 from BF3? 90% of the players from BF3 refused to use almost any other weapon once they figured out how OPAF the M16A3 was until it got the ever-loving-s*** nerfed out of it so the competitive players started using other weapons.

Not to mention how it was completely left out of BF4 so they wouldn't have to deal with the same issues they had in BF3.

Karl Streiger, on 20 December 2016 - 12:40 AM, said:

Unlock Omnis ES and FF - this is more important as you think. Simple because you can't create parity between IS and Clans when there is no parity between Clan and Clan

Of course squikrs'n'quirks might reduce the edge.

Another more important factor weapon role - take the Jenner 7D as a premium example - why to run it with 4-MLAS and a Medium SRM

Why not to run it (If possible with 2 Heavy SRM) or 6 MLAS how should the performance differ - what about to switch to Light SRM where is the reason to have SRM 2s?

When you can't answer this questions you can't bring new weapons - because you might create new powercreep - Light PPC anyone?

Locked Endo/Ferro or XL engine are some of the penalties Clans are forced to endure for having overall better tech. 7 slot Endo and 7 slot Ferro for Clans over 14 slot Endo or 14 slot Ferro for IS. Not to mention slightly better weight savings for either or both over the IS.

To say nothing of the lighter, smaller, and further reaching weaponry.

You want unlocked Endo/Ferro? IS gets 7 slot Endo or Ferro in response, with equal weight savings.

See how that would quickly spiral out of control?

[Karl Streiger]

Alan Davion, on 20 December 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

Locked Endo/Ferro or XL engine are some of the penalties Clans are forced to endure for having overall better tech. 7 slot Endo and 7 slot Ferro for Clans over 14 slot Endo or 14 slot Ferro for IS. Not to mention slightly better weight savings for either or both over the IS.

To say nothing of the lighter, smaller, and further reaching weaponry.

You want unlocked Endo/Ferro? IS gets 7 slot Endo or Ferro in response, with equal weight savings.

See how that would quickly spiral out of control?

Aye show me the locked ES/FF/XL to stop power creep on Ebon Jaguar, Stormcrow, Timber Wolf, Kodiak - Grizzly if it ever made it

Without squikrs'n'quirks there are a ton of Omnis that can't be compared with the best Clan Mechs - this is a grave issue when looking at the big picture - Clan vs Is - give Is something to close the gap between KDK and this IS Mech will slaughter the Dire

[Alan Davion]

Karl Streiger, on 20 December 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

Aye show me the locked ES/FF/XL to stop power creep on Ebon Jaguar, Stormcrow, Timber Wolf, Kodiak - Grizzly if it ever made it

Without squikrs'n'quirks there are a ton of Omnis that can't be compared with the best Clan Mechs - this is a grave issue when looking at the big picture - Clan vs Is - give Is something to close the gap between KDK and this IS Mech will slaughter the Dire

It's not my fault that certain Clan mechs don't suffer from locked Endo/Ferro as much as some others do, that's just the nature of the beast.

That's why I gave that example of the M16A3 in Battlefield 3. It was the best weapon in the game until DICE finally nerfed in 6 feet underground. People simply moved onto what was at the time the second best weapon at the time.

The same thing applies here. TBR, SCR, EBJ, KDK are probably the best mechs in the game, even in TT that was probably true. If these mechs get nerfed into uselessness, people will simply move onto the 2nd best Clan mechs.

But at least in TT you had the BV system to have some metric to measure a mechs effectiveness. We don't have any of that here, at least not where it's viewable by us where we could figure out exactly how OPAF these meta build mechs are.

See the bottom of my post here where I talk about the BV system. If MWO had a full BV system for the mechs that everyone could see and work with, we wouldn't be having anywhere near the number of arguments over IS/Clan balance when it comes to CW/FW.

If CW/FW drop decks were based on BV instead of weight, the IS might stand more than a snowballs chance in hell of winning against the top players in the Clans cause the Clans would probably be forced to bring no more than 1 or 2 fully optimized mechs, and at least 2 stock or barely optimized mechs, where as the IS could probably bring 2 or 3 fully optimized mechs and maybe only 1 stock or barely optimized mech.

[0111101]

The IS needs counterparts to everything the Clans currently have at the very least. Adding in brand new weapon systems could follow after light and heavy variants of existing weapon systems once Clan and IS both have the same baseline options.

[Kshahdoo]

Pahrias, on 19 December 2016 - 07:19 PM, said:

OK so the clan invasion has been going on long enough now that the IS R&D has had plenty of time to upgrade the IS arsenal.

Just read that its impossible for PGI to add new weapons for whatever reason, but surely they could figure it out?

Id love to see the heavy lasers, x-pulse, or mrms, or even the rotary auto cannon. Surely that would be better idea in terms of balance than constant quirking.

YAY or NAY?

Should they upgrade clan ballistics? Because they suck. I mean ACs.

[Alan Davion]

Kshahdoo, on 20 December 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

Should they upgrade clan ballistics? Because they suck. I mean ACs.

They suck because they were never supposed to exist to begin with. But because PGI can't figure out how to make swapping ammo types a reality, we're stuck with placeholder burst-fire Clan ACs for the foreseeable future.

[Baulven]

Karl Streiger, on 20 December 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

Aye show me the locked ES/FF/XL to stop power creep on Ebon Jaguar, Stormcrow, Timber Wolf, Kodiak - Grizzly if it ever made it

Without squikrs'n'quirks there are a ton of Omnis that can't be compared with the best Clan Mechs - this is a grave issue when looking at the big picture - Clan vs Is - give Is something to close the gap between KDK and this IS Mech will slaughter the Dire

Every single omni named already possesses ES and FF. The only onexception on your list that doesn't is the Kodiak and that can swap because it is a battlemech.

[Angel of Annihilation]

FupDup, on 19 December 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

What you're overlooking is that the best players in any game will typically flock to the strongest heroes/guns/tactics/etc because they play the game with the goal of winning. Using the best stuff increases their chances of winning.

In MWO, this means they use the best mechs from the best faction, equipped with the best guns.

Why does this always have to be the reason why players flock to something? I mean you say it like there is no other reason which isn't remotely true.

How about the Clan's just being more popular due to how they are portrayed in virtually every medium ever created for use in the Battletech/Mechwarrior Universe?

How about the fact that IS mechs are cheaper therefore drawing more new players to their ranks while Clan mechs are being used by more veteran players who can afford them?

How about a situation where perception outweighs reality and people flock to the Clans because they THINK the Clan have better tech?

I mean there are tons of things that can cause a population imbalance that has nothing to do with the mechs and tech in this game so why is it ALWAYS a mech and tech imbalance? Sure that could be the issue, but it is just as likely something else and PGI is even saying that it is something else so why the persistant belief it has got to be a mech and tech imbalance?

[FupDup]

Viktor Drake, on 20 December 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

How about the Clan's just being more popular due to how they are portrayed in virtually every medium ever created for use in the Battletech/Mechwarrior Universe?

The Clans are either neutral or antagonists in most past MW games, with MW2 being the only real exception. The IS on the other hand tended to be the "grizzled" protagonists or good guys, being neutral at worst most of the time.

Most fans of the Clans aren't there for the lore portrayal (because in lore they're pretty terrible). The Clan fans are there because they like the mechs based on either nostalgia/iconicness (i.e. Mad Cat) or just plain munchkinism.

Viktor Drake, on 20 December 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

How about the fact that IS mechs are cheaper therefore drawing more new players to their ranks while Clan mechs are being used by more veteran players who can afford them?

The upfront cost is cheaper, but when you factor in mandatory upgrades (Endo, DHS, usually XL, sometimes FF) the costs are actually pretty close.

Viktor Drake, on 20 December 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

How about a situation where perception outweighs reality and people flock to the Clans because they THINK the Clan have better tech?

There are actual statistics about win rates and what not that show the Clams having better performance than the IS (at least when it comes to the best gundams of each faction, yes both sides have their lemons).

[Tarl Cabot]

Gentleman Reaper, on 19 December 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

Quote

Snazzy Dragon, on 19 December 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:
Doesn't matter because Russ tweeted out that tech difference doesn't matter.

So clearly the head of PGI does not understand the balance of their own game.

Therefore, you can give up hope.

When did he say that? Russ said that after the skill tree is released they would focus on balancing tech bases

Quote

• Clan Scouting Drop Deck Tonnage reduced to 50 (from 55).

Design Note: While the forces of the Inner Sphere have at times made decent gains in the Scouting Tug of War during the recent Conflicts, the greater distribution of higher Skill Tiered players on the Clan side, combined with a greater presence of organized, high-tier Units also aligned under the Clan banner, still make Scouting engagements an uphill battle for Inner Sphere forces.

We should stress that Tonnage changes such as this, and the previous adjustments to Invasion Tonnage seen since the December 13th patch, are not intended to be the sole balance mechanic for Clan/Inner Sphere Conflicts.

We are listening to all feedback on this front, and are very much cognizant of the potential avenues for improving Conflict balance. That said, these Tonnage changes do provide us with a 'live' method - not reliant on downtime or patch cycles - to account for dynamic changes in Clan and Inner Sphere populations.

Basically, PGI is winding down for the holidays with lots of people going on vacation/etc. Actual equipment adjustments and such will not happen until next year, if that.

[RestosIII]

FupDup, on 20 December 2016 - 04:41 PM, said:

Most fans of the Clans aren't there for the lore portrayal (because in lore they're pretty terrible). The Clan fans are there because they like the mechs based on either nostalgia/iconicness (i.e. Mad Cat) or just plain munchkinism.

I'm a Clan fan because of mech designs in regards to looks, and CDS being just the best Battletech faction ever. So bleh!

[Y E O N N E]

CDS are still pretty terrible, since their continued existence is a lie of omission.

[RestosIII]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 December 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

CDS are still pretty terrible, since their continued existence is a lie of omission.

Oh FFS. Outside of Ian Hawker, CDS is one of the least terrible groups in Battletech. If we were to judge every faction by everything they ever did, we'd end up with another Warhammer 40k situation of no good guys. I'm going with the one faction that I could actually like, and didn't commit war crimes like it was going out of season.

[Imperius]

RestosIII, on 20 December 2016 - 04:57 PM, said:

I'm a Clan fan because of mech designs in regards to looks, and CDS being just the best Battletech faction ever. So bleh!

Same i just want my pokemech with high mounted hardpoints with current tech.

That is why I will never help anyone push for new tech. Because those same people were the ones who said I have to wait because of tech.

PGI makes up variants.
The MK II prime and MK II were designed around using the old tech weapons of the IS..
The mech always had a place here without adding new tech.

In Feb PGI most likely will start Q1 for 2017 (lots of companies don't start their new year till taxes) to make their sale numbers look good for 2017 this is when they will sell the MK II.

Why you may ask?

BECAUSE IF THE PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY DON'T WANT IT BECAUSE <insert BS reason> THEY WILL STILL BUY IT. IT WILL BE PGI's BEST SELLING MECH EVER AND THEY WANT 2017 TO "LOOK GOOD"

/end rant

As far as anything to do with MWO at this point I really don't care what happens. The game I'm focused on is MW5 and I'll be pushing for Clan DLC for the next two years since the bad news came that the game stops at the best part.

Back to asking Russ and Bryan when the MW5 forums will be up so I can leave these in the dust.

Yeonne Greene, on 20 December 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

CDS are still pretty terrible, since their continued existence is a lie of omission.

Lights being anything other than scouts is pretty terrible, since their continued existence to be viable fighter mech equal to an assault is a lie of mission.

[Y E O N N E]

RestosIII, on 20 December 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

Oh FFS. Outside of Ian Hawker, CDS is one of the least terrible groups in Battletech. If we were to judge every faction by everything they ever did, we'd end up with another Warhammer 40k situation of no good guys. I'm going with the one faction that I could actually like, and didn't commit war crimes like it was going out of season.

The difference between the Clans and the IS is that the Clans are younger and had a chance at being a force for good. Which they blew in grandiose fashion every single time the option to continue being d*cks or come back to the light came to the table. Every Clan that still exists in 3050 does so because they let Wolverine be exterminated. They supported Nicholas Kerensky, who is basically a space version of a certain early 20th century Austrian psychopath, instead of joining with their beleaguered brethren in opposition to that savagery. They then all implemented that savagery to varying degrees. And later, instead of warring with themselves over that boneheaded invasion and sparing the IS from their unwanted and unnecessary "help," they chose to invade. And CDS provided logistical support for that effort, even if they voted against the invasion to begin with.

Imperius, on 20 December 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

Lights being anything other than scouts is pretty terrible, since their continued existence to be viable fighter mech equal to an assault is a lie of mission.

[Van Hoven]

What is there not to like about incestious, gene altered descendants of a mad man running away from responsibility? Im confused

So I should like the IS houses who screw each other up at every given opportunity? Well, nothing against that, but they do it extraordinary inefficient.

Edited by Van Hoven, 20 December 2016 - 05:27 PM.