83 replies to this topic

[Garfuncle]

Clan battlemechs should not be better performing than Clan omnimechs. I know I know "muh lore" but omnimechs are supposed to be the cutting edge state of the art front line Clan mechs and Clan IICs should be second line reserve mechs pressed into action when omnimechs are in short supply. PGI should look at at least be able to remove fixed heat sinks/probes/jump jets on omnimechs while keeping locked engines and upgrades. That, plus pods and quirks should bring most omnimechs on par with the IICs/Battlemechs.

Then buff inner sphere equipment/weapons to keep them in line with omnimechs. As is most Clan Battlemechs are simply the best mechs in the game and that shouldn't be the case.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Timber wolf drops to xl 350, drops ferro, forum explodes over double gauss timber wolf rampage


bad idea

[Garfuncle]

Snazzy Dragon, on 22 December 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Timber wolf drops to xl 350, drops ferro, forum explodes over double gauss timber wolf rampage


bad idea

I said fixed equipment, not engines and upgrades. Heat Sinks, BAP, and JJs. I would love to cut some JJs off my Executioner, or remove the damn BAP from my Lynx.

[Y E O N N E]

TBR-S had unlocked JJs, once. The forum exploded then, too.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 December 2016 - 02:19 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

you mean a WHK that has 7 more Tons free, and can run UAC20s with out RT = Death?
i support this change, as i have a similar Topic, that includes upgrades and what they would do,
(Omnimech, Std Endo, Endo / Ferro Swapping & Non Engine Dhs Removal!)

[AngrySpartan]

With all my love to the Omnimechs I am against unlocking fixed equipment in general (at least MASC,JJs and heatsinks). These small limitations make mechs unique, they bring character to every chassis.

However, I am both hands for addressing fixed equipment issues, but instead of unlocking it is much better to make it usefull. JJs and MASC on an EXE weight whooping 12 tons total! They should feel like 12 ton mobility boosters than, they should provide significant advantage in combat. Piloting an EXE should feel like a mech from that old joke:
"-What weights 90 tons, runs 90kph, jumps and carries a Gauss rifle?
-I have no idea, but I get the hell out if here!"

Same approach for every other piece of fixed equipment: fixed BAP on MLX - make BAP an ECM like item in terms of hardpoint limitations and it's usefulness; Warhawk is inferior to MAD-IIC - make Warhawk's trademark TC5 on every config not just usefull, but desirable and then limit it to the chassis and so on.
To be clear, I do not suggest to hardmount these items, battlemech MASC style limitation will be more than enough.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 December 2016 - 03:24 PM.

[Van Hoven]

AngrySpartan, on 22 December 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

With all my love to the Omnimechs I am against unlocking fixed equipment in general (at least MASC,JJs and heatsinks). These small limitations make mechs unique, they bring character to every chassis.

However, I am both hands for addressing fixed equipment issues, but instead of unlocking it is much better to make it usefull. JJs and MASC on an EXE weight whooping 12 tons total! They should feel like 12 ton mobility boosters than, they should provide significant advantage in combat. Piloting an EXE should feel like a mech from that old joke:
"-What weights 90 tons, runs 90kph, jumps and carries a Gauss rifle?
-I have no idea, but I get the hell out if here!"

Same approach for every other piece of fixed equipment: fixed BAP on MLX - make BAP an ECM like item in terms of hardpoint limitations and it's usefulness; Warhawk is inferior to MAD-IIC - make Warhawk's trademark TC5 on every config not just usefull, but desirable and then limit it to the chassis and so on.
To be clear, I do not suggest to hardmount these items, battlemech MASC style limitation will be more than enough.

So IS and Clan Battlemechs are all the same? oO

Limiting options is rarely a good thing. All locking equipment does is gimping mechs which some random guy invented years back without thinking about even the possibility of his ideas will become relevant in a balance situation in a "competitive" pc game.

If you want to drive a mech that is just plain worse then another because of these limitations, fine, noone forces you to optimize. As it is now, some mechs are just noobtraps, as in if you dont know about whats good and whats bad and know your way around in the mechlab, you will pay big learning money.

[627]

how about that, if you unlock fixed equipment you are no longer able to change omnipods and have to take the stock hardpoints?

[Snowbluff]

Snazzy Dragon, on 22 December 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Timber wolf drops to xl 350, drops ferro, forum explodes over double gauss timber wolf rampage


bad idea

Pfft, ou don't even know what a TBR is, do you? It s a mediocre crutches up by superior clan tech.

It's far more likely people will up engine their night gets, which are much better suited for ballastics use.

As for the TBR-S side torsos, maybe unlocking the JJs wouldn't be so bad. People shoudlnamwk up their mind as to whether JJs are OP or not.

[Van Hoven]

Snazzy Dragon, on 22 December 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Timber wolf drops to xl 350, drops ferro, forum explodes over double gauss timber wolf rampage


bad idea

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0a1633e9b9380d6


mhh....

Edited by Van Hoven, 22 December 2016 - 03:40 PM.

[Vxheous]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 December 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

TBR-S had unlocked JJs, once. The forum exploded then, too.

TBR-S locked JJ doesn't matter anymore as the Warrant now offers that RT with laser mount without JJ.

[Van Hoven]

627, on 22 December 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

how about that, if you unlock fixed equipment you are no longer able to change omnipods and have to take the stock hardpoints?

The point is that the best mechs all have endo, endo/ferro and no unneccessary fixed equipment. Your rarely see tbr's nowadays, and mostly in brawler setups, for example.

It's not like it would break the game in any way, it would only allow some mechs to see more play.

But in fact, my idea would be to unlock endo/ferro and fixed equipment but keep the fixed engine rating in exchange for hardpoint customization. IS gets no sidetorso xl death and removal of structure/armor quirks.

Edited by Van Hoven, 22 December 2016 - 03:47 PM.

[KodiakGW]

8 locked JJ on Viper. 4 more than what you need. Passed on that one.
4 locked JJ on Night Gyr. Basically 4 tons of hover capability. Got myself a refund early.

I don't mind locked heat sinks, since those are always useful.

Now, unlock those, I'd actually drop cash to get them. Even though Viper can be bought for CBills, and Night Gyr next month. I can get the mech bays, premium time, and swag. Would be worth it.

[AngrySpartan]

Van Hoven, on 22 December 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

So IS and Clan Battlemechs are all the same? oO

Limiting options is rarely a good thing. All locking equipment does is gimping mechs which some random guy invented years back without thinking about even the possibility of his ideas will become relevant in a balance situation in a "competitive" pc game.

If you want to drive a mech that is just plain worse then another because of these limitations, fine, noone forces you to optimize. As it is now, some mechs are just noobtraps, as in if you dont know about whats good and whats bad and know your way around in the mechlab, you will pay big learning money.

1. That's not the topic about IS battlemechs, it's Clan Omni vs.clan battlemechs

2. I agree that limitations aren't good in general, but they were in place for years and game is still fun. And I am not suggesting to make them even more strict, I just suggest to turn those limitations into "features" that players would seek and will not receive when playing Battlemechs, hence omnis will have a spot.

Say, the "Night Gyr" and Orion IIC. NTG's main issue - lack of space. Does it make it a bad mech? Hell, no! It's wonderfull! And mostly it's better than free to customize Orion and it's fine. MAD-IIC and KDK are outliers, they make their Omni counterparts obsolete, that's for sure. Yet in the same situation Hunchback co-exist with Nova and Huntsman, and they all have a place and locked equipment. Best 50t Omni have it's place against HBK-IIC, thing is WHK and DWFjust ain't good enough to stand with KDK and MAD-IIC.

3. What competitive play needs is a different thing what most people needs. "Competitve" play will always seek for "exploits" and outliers in the game mechanics, yet there are dozens of other things in the game that exist only for lore and for fun.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 December 2016 - 04:01 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 22 December 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

TBR-S locked JJ doesn't matter anymore as the Warrant now offers that RT with laser mount without JJ.

It wasn't just the RT, it was the combination of both with the Prime arms. At the time, the 3xcMG, 2xcERLL, 2xcERML, 4xcASRM6 was a total monster in scrub queue.

But, meh. Night Gyr and KDK-3 have far and away exceeded the threat posed by unlocked JJs on the TBR-S.

[Van Hoven]

AngrySpartan, on 22 December 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

1. That's not the topic about IS battlemechs, it's Clan Omni vs.clan battlemechs

2. I agree that limitations aren't good in general, but they were in place for years and game is still fun. And I am not suggesting to make them even more strict, I just suggest to turn those limitations into "features" that players would seek and will not receive when playing Battlemechs, hence omnis will have a spot.

Say, the "Night Gyr" and Orion IIC. NTG's main issue - lack of space. Does it make it a bad mech? Hell, no! It's wonderfull! And mostly it's better than free to customize Orion and it's fine. MAD-IIC and KDK are outliers, they make their Omni counterparts obsolete, that's for sure. Yet in the same situation Hunchback co-exist with Nova and Huntsman, and they all have a place and locked equipment. Best 50t Omni have it's place against HBK-IIC, thing is WHK and DWFjust ain't good enough to stand with KDK and MAD-IIC.

3. What competitive play needs is a different thing what most people needs. "Competitve" play will always seek for "exploits" and outliers in the game mechanics, yet there are dozens of other things in the game that exist only for lore and for fun.

1. If you argue that costumization makes Omnimechs identical it very well is comparable to IS and Clan Battlemechs. The mechs still have different hardpoints and geometry, and in my line of thinking different engine rates.

2. A system that works isnt necessarily a good system. Setting you at a disadvantage by design, punishing you for being nostalgic towards a mech isnt good in my eyes. Geometry and hardpoints is punishing enough without further handicapping certain mechs. And Omnis have a spot. It just happens that the omnis which have a good setup in the lore are the omnis that are most widely used, others have to be quirked to be considered.

Orion and Orion IIC are heavily handicapped by there geometry and hardpoint localisation. The Nightgyr is a 75 ton Heavy with good hardpoint layout and capable of running devastating weapon loadoats. If it was a Battlemech, most people would strip the JJs for a higher engine rating, but it works fine as is.

3. The restrictions to omni mechs are purely made up by pgi and nothing in lore states that any equipment should be fixed on them, to the contrary in fact. Furthermore, all those highly customized mechs we see running around should ONLY be possible on omni mechs, and not on either clan or is battlemechs. Argueing with lore in a pc game where you have to compete with other players is lackluster in my point of view. It allready is quite arbitrary where lore matters and where it does not. Add in the ghost heat and quirk system and all the lore is blown out of the water.


Again, my point is unlocking equipment won't touch the top performers, or just ever so slightly. It would however bring more diversity and options on the battlefield.


Edit: In a multiplayer game the fun should come from the gameplay first, then the setting/lore/nostalgia. A singleplayer game is a whole other cup of beer.


Edit2: If you take a look at the nova take notice of its long list of quirks. That what makes it on par with the HBK IIC, nothing else. OFC unlocking equipment would mean getting rid of quirks. And in my book getting rid of quirks is desirable.

Edit3: Quirks are neccessary for mechs that are either bad by their geometry or hardpoint localisation or being on the wrong (inner sphere) side. But to buff an completely fine chassi to the level of others with quirks instead of allowing to costumize it is... questionable.

Edited by Van Hoven, 22 December 2016 - 04:29 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

AngrySpartan, on 22 December 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

1. That's not the topic about IS battlemechs, it's Clan Omni vs.clan battlemechs

2. I agree that limitations aren't good in general, but they were in place for years and game is still fun. And I am not suggesting to make them even more strict, I just suggest to turn those limitations into "features" that players would seek and will not receive when playing Battlemechs, hence omnis will have a spot.

Say, the "Night Gyr" and Orion IIC. NTG's main issue - lack of space. Does it make it a bad mech? Hell, no! It's wonderfull! And mostly it's better than free to customize Orion and it's fine. MAD-IIC and KDK are outliers, they make their Omni counterparts obsolete, that's for sure. Yet in the same situation Hunchback co-exist with Nova and Huntsman, and they all have a place and locked equipment. Best 50t Omni have it's place against HBK-IIC, thing is WHK and DWFjust ain't good enough to stand with KDK and MAD-IIC.

3. What competitive play needs is a different thing what most people needs. "Competitve" play will always seek for "exploits" and outliers in the game mechanics, yet there are dozens of other things in the game that exist only for lore and for fun.

The thing is, all that locked this and locked that was because when the Clans came out they had some stupid OP weapons and all the restrictions were put into place to balance that out. Fast Forward to now and most of the Clan Weapons are a joke. I mean who the hell uses an cER LL anymore unless it is a light mech trying to snipe? UACs, the Clan's ONLY decent ballistic option just got gank nerfed recently as well and now I am finding my UACs jammed up and unusable more often than actually firing lead. Hell heat got cranked up pretty much across the board on all the Clan lasers until it now requires you to mount an extra DHS per cER ML that you want to use on your mech. Point is, as we can now see by looking at the Clan Battlemechs, weapons balance between IS and Clans is pretty equal, at least with all the IS quirkege going on. However the Clan Omnimech is getting left behind due to all the restrictions in place on them. I mean there is something seriously wrong when the best Clan mechs in the game are Battlemechs, not Omnimechs. Sure there are a few good clan Omnimech but those are only the ones that have been blessed with a near optimal configuration preventing the restrictions from limiting them. Most however are at beast mediocre. Gargoyle, Executioner, Ice Ferret and quite a few more aren't competitive, not in the least.

[AngrySpartan]

Viktor Drake, on 22 December 2016 - 04:19 PM, said:

The thing is, all that locked this and locked that was because when the Clans came out they had some stupid OP weapons and all the restrictions were put into place to balance that out. Fast Forward to now and most of the Clan Weapons are a joke. I mean who the hell uses an cER LL anymore unless it is a light mech trying to snipe? UACs, the Clan's ONLY decent ballistic option just got gank nerfed recently as well and now I am finding my UACs jammed up and unusable more often than actually firing lead. Hell heat got cranked up pretty much across the board on all the Clan lasers until it now requires you to mount an extra DHS per cER ML that you want to use on your mech. Point is, as we can now see by looking at the Clan Battlemechs, weapons balance between IS and Clans is pretty equal, at least with all the IS quirkege going on. However the Clan Omnimech is getting left behind due to all the restrictions in place on them. I mean there is something seriously wrong when the best Clan mechs in the game are Battlemechs, not Omnimechs. Sure there are a few good clan Omnimech but those are only the ones that have been blessed with a near optimal configuration preventing the restrictions from limiting them. Most however are at beast mediocre. Gargoyle, Executioner, Ice Ferret and quite a few more aren't competitive, not in the least.

Agreed, there are some odd weapon balance decision were made, but as you said IS&Clans are closer than they ever were before. Yet it has nothing to do with fixed equipment.

Indeed, many clan Omni are suboptimal to say the least. But is it a problem of fixed equipment or other things like poor geometry and weapon placement? For mechs like EXE - it's both, yet the Linebacker with its 50% of mass putted into the engine is an ok mech! These mechs requre individual approach, there is no need to blame fixed equipment for every sin in the universe.

And unless PGI will restrict customization somehow (ain't gonna happen!), Clan battlemechs would keep their best qualities from both battlemech and clan-tech worlds. To me it is a matter of making underperforming Omni-mechs better and giving IS some new tech (like light engines) to make them equal to clan battlemechs.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 December 2016 - 04:38 PM.

[Lykaon]

Garfuncle, on 22 December 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Clan battlemechs should not be better performing than Clan omnimechs. I know I know "muh lore" but omnimechs are supposed to be the cutting edge state of the art front line Clan mechs and Clan IICs should be second line reserve mechs pressed into action when omnimechs are in short supply. PGI should look at at least be able to remove fixed heat sinks/probes/jump jets on omnimechs while keeping locked engines and upgrades. That, plus pods and quirks should bring most omnimechs on par with the IICs/Battlemechs.

Then buff inner sphere equipment/weapons to keep them in line with omnimechs. As is most Clan Battlemechs are simply the best mechs in the game and that shouldn't be the case.

I am on the fence on this issue.

On the one hand Omnimechs have the advantage of having XP earned linked to the CT core. This of course means that with the upcoming changes to mech mastery you can focus on maximizing xp gain on a single chassis that also has the capacity to dramaticly alter it's build and role. By focusing on more generic advancments you can have improved performance on a chassis that can be altered for near;y any role needed.

On the other hand eventually the Inner Sphere will want some of their omnimechs. But,many of those have severe flaws in design that simply will not perform well in MWo.
Some have fixed XL engines on chassi without the geometry or agility to survive using that suicide box. Others have fixed standard engines devouring tonnage when they do have the agility to survive the suicide box XL. Others even have fixed single heatsinks??!!

Many I.S. omnimechs would be deathtraps with their lore appropriate fixed equipment.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 December 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

It wasn't just the RT, it was the combination of both with the Prime arms. At the time, the 3xcMG, 2xcERLL, 2xcERML, 4xcASRM6 was a total monster in scrub queue.

But, meh. Night Gyr and KDK-3 have far and away exceeded the threat posed by unlocked JJs on the TBR-S.

Well, the large super whiny segments of the MWO player base are not exactly known for their foresight. They're all about the "Me!" and the "Now!".