75 replies to this topic

[Barantor]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

True.

But, placeholder skills system...

That's one thing that worries me in a way. We might not get variants in the future if a chassis has tons of them because they are deemed 'underpowered'.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Barantor, on 27 December 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

That's one thing that worries me in a way. We might not get variants in the future if a chassis has tons of them because they are deemed 'underpowered'.

We shouldn't need future variants to begin with. The problem we have with new mechs being added every month is a problem of redundancy. There are only so many shoes to fill before variants start competing with each other for the same exact build, and this problem is only exacerbated but multiple pointless or role-bending variants for a mech. The TBT-7K, HBK-4J, HBK-4SP, SHD-2K, etc are all great examples of mechs that don't fit the original design of the mech and compete with and in some cases are better than competitors (other chassis') that were "designed" with the that role in mind.

[Barantor]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

We shouldn't need future variants to begin with. The problem we have with new mechs being added every month is a problem of redundancy. There are only so many shoes to fill before variants start competing with each other for the same exact build, and this problem is only exacerbated but multiple pointless or role-bending variants for a mech. The TBT-7K, HBK-4J, HBK-4SP, SHD-2K, etc are all great examples of mechs that don't fit the original design of the mech and compete with and in some cases are better than competitors (other chassis') that were "designed" with the that role in mind.

Which is a reason why they need to be made relevant with some other mechanic. Some have suggested bonuses for using variants and chassis that were made by one faction. The TBT-7K was a Draconis Combine version of the Treb, so using it as a Loyal Kuritan should give bonuses. This might not make them superior in any way, but gives them a place in the grand scheme.

We'll see though, I'd rather have redundant mechs and have those options than not because they don't fit some schema.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Barantor, on 27 December 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

Some have suggested bonuses for using variants and chassis that were made by one faction. The TBT-7K was a Draconis Combine version of the Treb, so using it as a Loyal Kuritan should give bonuses. This might not make them superior in any way, but gives them a place in the grand scheme.

That just makes units less distinct when you have a bunch of variants like that, especially since a lot of these fall out of use in favor of homegrown chassis. For variants that are more universal among various factions it makes some sense but even then, if the chassis is universal, shouldn't the base variant support those other configurations. The number of hardpoints don't translate directly to the power of the mech, the KDK-3 is proof of that since some of the most powerful builds have used no more than 4 weapons (aka half of its hardpoints).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 December 2016 - 10:37 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

There are some trends for hard-points, though.

IS require at least 7xE to compete with 6xE on a Clan 'Mech, since that's how many it takes to broach the 52 threshold, though 8x is better since you'll get more range out of it.

IS require 2xB + 2xE to compete with 1xB+2xE or 3xB on a Clan 'Mech, since Gauss is murder to XLs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

There are some trends for hard-points, though.

IS require at least 7xE to compete with 6xE on a Clan 'Mech, since that's how many it takes to broach the 52 threshold, though 8x is better since you'll get more range out of it.

IS require 2xB + 2xE to compete with 1xB+2xE or 3xB on a Clan 'Mech, since Gauss is murder to XLs.

Oh I agree there are definite trends, but it also depends on the weight class and role. The point is when it comes to giving a single variant more flexibility, hardpoint counts shouldn't be considered a measure of power since the situation is more complex.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 December 2016 - 10:55 AM.

[Barantor]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Oh I agree there are definite trends, but it also depends on the weight class and role. The point is when it comes to giving a single variant more flexibility, hardpoint counts shouldn't be considered a measure of power since the situation is more complex.

It is very complex, but there are some outliers like the 5V who fall so far outside the norm that they might as well not exist. Two CT hardpoints on a 30 ton mech is just not enough.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Barantor, on 27 December 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

It is very complex, but there are some outliers like the 5V who fall so far outside the norm that they might as well not exist. Two CT hardpoints on a 30 ton mech is just not enough.

I'm not disagreeing on this, I think there is no reason to have 3 different Spiders when they all pretty much compete for the same role and all have hardpoint issues.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 December 2016 - 03:59 PM.

[Barantor]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'm not disagreeing on this, I think there is no reason to have 3 different Spiders when they all pretty much compete for the same role and all have hardpoint issues.

I'm fine with there being 3, I just want them to all be brought to the same level at least. I mean the firestarters aren't great now, but at least they are all equally not great lol.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Barantor, on 27 December 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

I'm fine with there being 3, I just want them to all be brought to the same level at least.

No, there doesn't need to be 3 because lights get redundant real fast. There is more to them not releasing more light mechs than just that they don't sell well due to being underpowered, it is because most of what the unreleased ones do can already be done by mechs currently in game. There are currently 48 different light variants in the game, and too many are worthless or redundant, there is too much role and build overlap when there doesn't need to be.

[Y E O N N E]

Raptor would be new and interesting, doing things other IS Lights can't do.

[Barantor]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

No, there doesn't need to be 3 because lights get redundant real fast. There is more to them not releasing more light mechs than just that they don't sell well due to being underpowered, it is because most of what the unreleased ones do can already be done by mechs currently in game. There are currently 48 different light variants in the game, and too many are worthless or redundant, there is too much role and build overlap when there doesn't need to be.

You can say that about other weight classes too though, especially heavies.

There are going to be redundant mechs so long as there is only the game we currently have, hell there were redundant mechs years ago, that isn't going away.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Barantor, on 28 December 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

You can say that about other weight classes too though, especially heavies.

There are going to be redundant mechs so long as there is only the game we currently have, hell there were redundant mechs years ago, that isn't going away.

I agree redundancy is not unique to lights (though it is worse for them) however just because it's always going to be a problem doesn't mean we should make it worse by having more variants than there are pokemon

[The Amazing Spider Man]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'm not disagreeing on this, I think there is no reason to have 3 different Spiders when they all pretty much compete for the same role and all have hardpoint issues.

I disagree, and I feel the 4 SDR variants all fill slightly different roles. They all have hardpoint issues and are worthless when compared to other chassis that do similar jobs, but all spiders are not built for the same role. 5V is the sniper, 5K is distance harasser and scavenger, 5D is stealthy knife fighter/support/boom and zoom, 5A is all about facetime DPS/dual AMS support. Less about redundancy here and more about making smart choices based on the fact that balance is skewed. The trades being made when changing to another mech that weighs the same and does a similar job are not in SDR's favor. Nothing moves as fast, jumps as high, and recharges it's energy weapon faster with such small hitboxes, but the trades for these perks are worth it given current balance.


In this instance, using JJs effectively makes you a UAV that can shoot back. We all know UAV life span right? SDR is dealing with around double to triple the health, and nearly the same damage output. SDR 5V can go the highest of all of them, but if you know how to use JJs effectively you never need the extras that the 5V affords. The only reason is to place a UAV as high as possible above a target, which is rarely needed and usually a recipe for imminent death.

Right now with level design/JJ balance as it is there is no need for that many JJs on any mech, let alone the SDR where weapons are slim; the trade for ballistic hardpoints and energy quirks, or lower engine with another energy hardpoint and ECM are just better choices, and can fill any role the 5V wants to try better (other than playing UAV). Likewise, any job you'd want to do in a spider can be done better in a different mech.

Jumping high is pointless, especially when mechs with more armor and firepower jump higher, with the trades of speed (barely) and hitboxes.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Amazing Spider Man, on 28 December 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

They all have hardpoint issues and are worthless when compared to other chassis that do similar jobs, but all spiders are not built for the same role. 5V is the sniper, 5K is distance harasser and scavenger, 5D is stealthy knife fighter/support/boom and zoom, 5A is all about facetime DPS/dual AMS support. Less about redundancy here and more about making smart choices based on the fact that balance is skewed.

Ignoring the fact that the 5K is a better 5V (it snipes just as well as the 5V), I don't think you get it, it isn't just about the Spider when talking about roles. What about other 30 ton lights, do any of them do anything similar or meant to do something similar? That's the whole point, this is the reason why we have such redundancy. Mechs should be more focused that way there is more of a point to future mechs. Firestarters, BKs, and Grasshoppers are all other great examples of mechs that did not need as many variants as they have.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 December 2016 - 02:27 PM.

[Cabusha3]

I miss my old SDR-5V. Before the neerfing to Hooverjets, I could max the JJs and fly out of some of the maps like the ridges on Tourmaline. Now though, no point. Use a Cicada or Viper if you want minimum JJ ownage.

Seriously miss the spider. It was my favorite light mech for pretty much all of beta. I used to pull off so much Jon Woo **** in that thing. Not the best mech, but what it did nothing else competed. Now it can barely get its feet off the ground with max JJs.

So many poor design decisions.

Edited by Cabusha3, 28 December 2016 - 02:51 PM.

[The Amazing Spider Man]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 December 2016 - 02:26 PM, said:

Ignoring the fact that the 5K is a better 5V (it snipes just as well as the 5V), I don't think you get it, it isn't just about the Spider when talking about roles. What about other 30 ton lights, do any of them do anything similar or meant to do something similar? That's the whole point, this is the reason why we have such redundancy. Mechs should be more focused that way there is more of a point to future mechs. Firestarters, BKs, and Grasshoppers are all other great examples of mechs that did not need as many variants as they have.

Want to nitpick about roles and what you think this is about? The title says "Spider" right in it, please continue? 5K should be facetanking with it's quirks, if you're sniping you're using the quirks inefficiently. Likewise the 5V quirk's most efficient use is pinpoint damage. This isn't about roles between mechs or having too much variance between chassis; this is about the trade off between the 12 JJs on the 5V and the 6 JJs on the 5K. Spiders only need 5 JJs, anymore is for showing off, and right now there is now need to have more than 5 JJs, which makes the 5V (which trades hardpoints for JJ slots) completely worthless until something changes.

You list Firestarters that don't light and Grasshoppers who struggle with liftoff as evidence.

There is no stuffing the toothpaste back in the tube now. The Spider is supposed to be small and jumpy, neither of those are worth the trade off in the current state of the game.

Don't tell me mechs need to be more specialized when I'm saying the specializations need to be fixed for this to work properly.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Amazing Spider Man, on 28 December 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

5K should be facetanking with it's quirks, if you're sniping you're using the quirks inefficiently.

How about you tell that to EmP who used ERLL 5Ks. If you think that a Spider can face tank against better players then you are woefully mistaken.

The Amazing Spider Man, on 28 December 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

Spiders only need 5 JJs, anymore is for showing off

Spiders don't even need 5, the meta builds run at most 2 iirc.

The Amazing Spider Man, on 28 December 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

You list Firestarters that don't light and Grasshoppers who struggle with liftoff as evidence.

Ummm wtf are you even talking about, I'm talking about mechs that have homogeneous variants.

The Amazing Spider Man, on 28 December 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

Don't tell me mechs need to be more specialized when I'm saying the specializations need to be fixed for this to work properly.

Giving the Spider insane jumps won't fix the fact it still needs to have the firepower to kill things to be useful. That's the difference between the TT version of the Spider (which is balanced by its really low BV) and the MWO version. The MWO version needs to be a tougher and more heat efficient version of the Venom to compete with other lights without as heavy handed quirks and even then the Venom isn't that different from the old meta FS9-S.

[The Amazing Spider Man]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 December 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

Stuff

Sniping is taking a shot at distance and repositioning. The 5K gets two ERLL burns per every single shot of most anything that matches the range because quirks. If you aren't using the quirks to continually deal damage you're doing it wrong. Repositioning wastes the quirk: exposing yourself for extended periods, even at range, is facetanking.

Spiders need 5 JJs (0,1,8 also understandable), meta is wrong and I'm not spelling it out.

Given current map design/JJ functionality jumping height is pointless. Fix the JJs so they aren't detrimental (I died twice today alone because the map wouldn't let go of my leg), design maps so higher platforms are accessible (forest, bog, etc.) and provide strategic advantages for those that can reach them, make scoring better reward functions that are associated with JJs (scouting, spotting, etc.), and then we can talk hardpoint inflation. Using your logic we don't need to add anything, just fix what there is.

WTF are you even on about other mechs (besides CDA and VPR) for? Mech redundancy has nothing to do with the facts: 5V has the most JJ slots, can't jump the highest despite this, and even if it jumped highest this still provides no practical application given the current state of the game.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Amazing Spider Man, on 29 December 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Sniping is taking a shot at distance and repositioning. The 5K gets two ERLL burns per every single shot of most anything that matches the range because quirks. If you aren't using the quirks to continually deal damage you're doing it wrong. Repositioning wastes the quirk: exposing yourself for extended periods, even at range, is facetanking.

Facetanking is staring down an opponent, it has nothing to do with how long you are exposed.
Sniping doesn't require re positioning either, or are we not considering things like the Timby or Night Gyr snipers?
The difference between the quirks on the 5K and 5V is that the 5V has a 10% range quirk and a 5% laser duration advantage, both of which don't really matter given that the biggest the 5V can mount is an LPL or ERLL which is ironically the same as the 5K and the 5K has the 20% extra cooldown that allows it to do more damage in a shorter time frame which matters a lot when that is your only weaponry. Sure the 5V has more JJs, but no one cares about that because mounting anymore than 3-4 doesn't really afford you anything special outside maybe to jump on the walls of HPG easier (but at a serious cost).

The Amazing Spider Man, on 29 December 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Spiders need 5 JJs (0,1,8 also understandable), meta is wrong and I'm not spelling it out.

Why is the meta wrong exactly? You do realize why the meta is what it is right?

The Amazing Spider Man, on 29 December 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

design maps so higher platforms are accessible (forest, bog, etc.) and provide strategic advantages for those that can reach them

JJs should not be used to abuse positions like that, in fact that is actually one of the problems with maps like Bog which have those platforms because they can make it a requirement to mount JJs to actually be effective on the map. Sorry but JJs should not allow special positions but should allow for easier repositioning.

The Amazing Spider Man, on 29 December 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

WTF are you even on about other mechs (besides CDA and VPR) for? Mech redundancy has nothing to do with the facts: 5V has the most JJ slots, can't jump the highest despite this, and even if it jumped highest this still provides no practical application given the current state of the game.

Other mechs matter because variants do not exist in a vacuum, they not only compete with other variants of that chassis, but all variants of that weight class.