104 replies to this topic

[Black Lanner]

@The Schwartz

I have limited experience, but I have been actively trying to improve my game and from what I have learned from those that have been playing this game for years I had the following thought:

you play mostly PUG, don't you?
Team drops that you can reliably push with would allow you to keep the SRMs and still do that kind of damage: 1) the early sniper stage would likely be much shorter because of cordination and teamwork 2) they are backing you up and sharing armor so that you survive longer during that fight 3) your LRMs will mean less at higher tier play because people know how to use cover and with the next patch it mean even less that that because people will be rewarded for bringing AMS and shooting down missiles 4) you are cutting down your burst DPS when you need it the most because that one less SRM rack isn't there so you drop that other assault in one more volley than you would have otherwise, which with all of the Kodiak and Marauder IICs out there means they will get you, before you get them.

[Acehilator]

Black Lanner, on 16 April 2017 - 10:36 PM, said:

I know in the TT you cannot fire ATMs indirectly, but that doesn't mean that PGI will hold to that. 1) they have already altered or ignored many Battletech rules and 2) there are few maps that offer enough long range LOS for the missiles to hit anything further than at the mid range bracket. So I have no expectations in either direction because you almost never know how PGI will implement things until it is done.

Yeah but the baseline of TT behaviour is still there... in the case of ATMs they would have to break the TT rule just to create a weapon system that will then be in direct competition with an existing system. Of course PGI might go full PGI again, but I would say that is rather unlikely.

On topic:
1. Assault LRM boats are the only mechs worth using LRM on
2. Solo QP is of course the only game mode where you should do that (FW and Group queue can work too, but require too much setup and 11 other people to coordinate with)

[Roughneck45]

Acehilator, on 17 April 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

On topic:
1. Assault LRM boats are the only mechs worth using LRM on
2. Solo QP is of course the only game mode where you should do that (FW and Group queue can work too, but require too much setup and 11 other people to coordinate with)

Completely disagree with #1. #2 is spot on though.

Mediums and heavies are the best LRM platforms IMO, assaults are too slow.

[Acehilator]

Roughneck45, on 17 April 2017 - 07:45 AM, said:

Completely disagree with #1. #2 is spot on though.

Mediums and heavies are the best LRM platforms IMO, assaults are too slow.

Mediums can't carry enough tubes period, IS Heavies can't either. Night Gyr and Orion IIC can do it, but everything you build on those can still be done WAY better on a Highlander IIC or Supernova. Being slow does not really matter when you are running a weapon system with long range and indirect fire capabilites. Of course you should always move with the team to share your armor and get direct LoS for Artemis and TAG, but 63km/h is still perfectly fine for that.

[Roughneck45]

Acehilator, on 17 April 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

Mediums can't carry enough tubes period, IS Heavies can't either. Night Gyr and Orion IIC can do it, but everything you build on those can still be done WAY better on a Highlander IIC or Supernova. Being slow does not really matter when you are running a weapon system with long range and indirect fire capabilites. Of course you should always move with the team to share your armor and get direct LoS for Artemis and TAG, but 63km/h is still perfectly fine for that.

Being slow matters when a small pulse light obliterates your legs, or when the enemy can take cover and you cant move quickly enough to counter it.

LRM5 boats are best on mediums.

The catapult and archer can both take 40 tubes with 3-5 mediums lasers.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Edited by Roughneck45, 17 April 2017 - 08:22 AM.

[SPencil]

Acehilator, on 17 April 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

Mediums can't carry enough tubes period, IS Heavies can't either.

Tube count isn't super important unless you really want to use all the missiles as fast as possible. I'd argue a high ammunition count is the bigger priority. A LRM60 Stalker with 10 tons of ammo has the exact same damage potential as a LRM30 Catapult with 10 tons of ammo, primary difference is the Stalker will run out of ammo faster. LRM60 mechs hurt like hell but each missed salvo hurts just that much worse on the Stalker vs. the Catapult.

Ehh, I think someone who is not me (re: too lazy and am at work) should run some numbers; not nearly enough math around here for my liking...

[Acehilator]

Roughneck45, on 17 April 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

Being slow matters when a small pulse light obliterates your legs, or when the enemy can take cover and you cant move quickly enough to counter it.

LRM5 boats are best on mediums.

The catapult and archer can both take 40 tubes with 3-5 mediums lasers.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

When your main weaponry are LRMs, you can't really defend yourself from a SPL Light anyways. Does not matter if you are moving at 83 or 63km/h.

Have you played LRM5s since the last patch? They are dead now, the spread increase killed them. "CT seeking" like before... nope, not a trace left of that.

40 tubes with mediocre quirks are not enough, the matches are too tonnage heavy.

SPencil, on 17 April 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

Tube count isn't super important unless you really want to use all the missiles as fast as possible. I'd argue a high ammunition count is the bigger priority. A LRM60 Stalker with 10 tons of ammo has the exact same damage potential as a LRM30 Catapult with 10 tons of ammo, primary difference is the Stalker will run out of ammo faster. LRM60 mechs hurt like hell but each missed salvo hurts just that much worse on the Stalker vs. the Catapult.

Ehh, I think someone who is not me (re: too lazy and am at work) should run some numbers; not nearly enough math around here for my liking...

Trigger discipline is key, yes. But with 60 tubes at least you can really bash someone's face in when they are out in the open. I tried running LRM30 setups the last few days, they are horrible. Stopping power is non-existent, psychological fear factor is unsatisfactory. You are relegated to a pure support role and are at the mercy of your team. With an LRM Assault you can just initiate (or hold against) a push, and make stuff happen on your own.

[Roughneck45]

Acehilator, on 17 April 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

When your main weaponry are LRMs, you can't really defend yourself from a SPL Light anyways. Does not matter if you are moving at 83 or 63km/h.

Have you played LRM5s since the last patch? They are dead now, the spread increase killed them. "CT seeking" like before... nope, not a trace left of that.

40 tubes with mediocre quirks are not enough, the matches are too tonnage heavy.

If no LRM boat can defend itself from a small pulse light, why would you commit an assault slot to it?

LRM5 still works, albeit not quite as lethal as it once was. 40 tubes are plenty for how I use them.

LRM assaults can churn out damage if they get the opportunity but overall I think they are a bigger liability to the team than a med or heavy, or easier to completely neuter, I suppose.

Edited by Roughneck45, 17 April 2017 - 11:48 AM.

[Valasharia]

I'm still not having much in the way of problems with my Supernova even with PGI attempting to reduce missile damage. I play a fairly aggressive game for an LRM boat, using line-of-sight where possible and I tend to stay in the group to prevent lights from harassing me. I also try to get within 700 meters of the target before letting go. I carry 2520 missiles which gives me 43 sixty missile salvos. If I succeed in using all or most of them in a game, a win is pretty much assured. And I also have four medium pulse lasers for backup. That is more firepower than most lights can carry and a single burst will often finish off a damaged enemy. The nice thing about using a Supernova rather than another LRM boat like a Highlander, Atlas, or Kodiak is that due to its low profile I can peek over hilltops or ridges without exposing most of the mech. That gives me line-of-sight to the target without risking much in the way of retaliation.

[Typhon27]

Shadey99, on 05 January 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

I think I may have been in that match, or one identical to it. Stalker LRM boat with no backup weapons and he shot buildings and hills on Frozen City as the last mech standing. Not engaging any enemies on purpose before a light ended him.

As a Stalker pilot w/ LRMs, let me first apologize to you and the others who had to go through something like that.
My 5M brings 5 LRM5s w/ BAP and 3LL. Not the meta best frontline mech, I will grant you, but it makes an excellent wingman for the really big guys. I try to engage at 250-400 yards with line of sight always preferable.

[SPencil]

Acehilator, on 17 April 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

Trigger discipline is key, yes. But with 60 tubes at least you can really bash someone's face in when they are out in the open. I tried running LRM30 setups the last few days, they are horrible. Stopping power is non-existent, psychological fear factor is unsatisfactory. You are relegated to a pure support role and are at the mercy of your team. With an LRM Assault you can just initiate (or hold against) a push, and make stuff happen on your own.

You're not wrong, really you're not, but I have to disagree with dismissing the power of an LRM30 heavy mech. Proof is in my sig, my Catapult is an A-LRM30 with 10 tons of ammo, TAG and 2xML. Over 256 matches the average damage with this mech is ~489. Two-hundred and fifty six matches isn't insignificant, and 489 damage in any match with a heavy is respectable. Just speaking as the pilot in this mech, the point isn't stopping power or any immediate psychological stress, I play this build with two other ideas in mind: maximize time spent firing missiles, and guarantee as many missiles hits as possible.

The second idea is actually the easier idea: advanced target decay guarantees an IS-LRM salvo hit IF fired within ~600 meters AND line-of-sight is only lost as the missiles were fired. Any situation within that is guaranteed free damage... ignoring AMS, Radar Deprivation, and immediate cover. For that first idea, for my money a tuned Catapult will excel in this role. LRM carriers live and die based on their position as well as their enemies; ~80 after tweak and modest JJ capability means almost unmatched maneuverability among LRM support mechs. Mediums can do better in this space but at the cost of salvo damage and ammo capacity.

I guess my thesis is that LRMs are and were never for shock-and-awe; they're a source of consistent damage where other sources can't act. Assault LRM carriers will deliver performance, but heavy LRM carries can deliver consistency.

Roughneck45, on 17 April 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

If no LRM boat can defend itself from a small pulse light, why would you commit an assault slot to it?

Which is why a second laser is always recommended

Valasharia, on 17 April 2017 - 03:00 PM, said:

I carry 2520 missiles... If I succeed in using all or most of them in a game, a win is pretty much assured.

No doubt, and I know why: even if you hit only half of your 2520 missiles that do 1 damage each, that's 1260 damage. More realistically, allowing for perfect hits and complete misses total accuracy might be about 30%, that's still 756 damage. Add in some brawling with lasers and sharing armour as heavies / assaults should that's still doing more than your fair share of contribution in terms of raw damage and utility provided, even for an assault.

Edited by SPencil, 17 April 2017 - 05:38 PM.

[Acehilator]

Roughneck45, on 17 April 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

If no LRM boat can defend itself from a small pulse light, why would you commit an assault slot to it?

LRM5 still works, albeit not quite as lethal as it once was. 40 tubes are plenty for how I use them.

LRM assaults can churn out damage if they get the opportunity but overall I think they are a bigger liability to the team than a med or heavy, or easier to completely neuter, I suppose.

An Assault mechs best defense against Lights are his teammates, regardless of weapon loadout.

I don't know if you are using Clan LRM5s, but the IS version on my Golden Boy is 100% unusable now. TTK is so slow, it is would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

And Assaults are most difficult to neuter... increased vulnerabilty against Lights, decreased against everything else. My Huntsman or Golden Boy are super squishy in comparison, makes my Awesome-8R with IS XL look like a tank, and the Highlander IIC and Supernova playing on a whole other level.

SPencil, on 17 April 2017 - 05:18 PM, said:

[snip]

I hear you. Pretty amazing how much impact playstyle differences and personal preference have on performance. I tried LRM30/40 builds for a whole day, cannot make them work at all.

My LRM Assaults combined (Awesome-8R, Highlander IIC - B, Supernova - A) are sitting at 600 dmg average over 120 games, going to push the number of games to 150 the next few days.

[Roughneck45]

Acehilator, on 18 April 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

I don't know if you are using Clan LRM5s, but the IS version on my Golden Boy is 100% unusable now. TTK is so slow, it is would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

I hear you. Pretty amazing how much impact playstyle differences and personal preference have on performance. I tried LRM30/40 builds for a whole day, cannot make them work at all.

I leveled my Goldenboy with that after the nerf, still works well.

Its just a playstyle difference here. You are looking at TTK while TTK doesn't even enter my mind when using LRMs, I'm thinking about mobility and consistently landing my missiles. If I'm looking for a good TTK I'm not bringing LRMs, I'm bringing direct fire.

There are pros and cons on both sides, I just feel the scales are tilted in favor of meds and heavies for most situations.

Edited by Roughneck45, 18 April 2017 - 11:23 AM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Valasharia, on 17 April 2017 - 03:00 PM, said:

I'm still not having much in the way of problems with my Supernova even with PGI attempting to reduce missile damage. I play a fairly aggressive game for an LRM boat, using line-of-sight where possible and I tend to stay in the group to prevent lights from harassing me. I also try to get within 700 meters of the target before letting go. I carry 2520 missiles which gives me 43 sixty missile salvos. If I succeed in using all or most of them in a game, a win is pretty much assured. And I also have four medium pulse lasers for backup. That is more firepower than most lights can carry and a single burst will often finish off a damaged enemy. The nice thing about using a Supernova rather than another LRM boat like a Highlander, Atlas, or Kodiak is that due to its low profile I can peek over hilltops or ridges without exposing most of the mech. That gives me line-of-sight to the target without risking much in the way of retaliation.

I'm seeing you in game quite a bit. I think it will be more exciting if you upgrade to lrm80. Let your teammates protect you from the lights.

[JigglyMoobs]

Roughneck45, on 18 April 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

I leveled my Goldenboy with that after the nerf, still works well.

Its just a playstyle difference here. You are looking at TTK while TTK doesn't even enter my mind when using LRMs, I'm thinking about mobility and consistently landing my missiles. If I'm looking for a good TTK I'm not bringing LRMs, I'm bringing direct fire.

There are pros and cons on both sides, I just feel the scales are tilted in favor of meds and heavies for most situations.

Lrms are the ultimate support weapons. Ttk should not enter anyone's mind when playing lrms.

You will get kills, but taking a fresh mechs from live to dead is not the intended use.

[SPencil]

JigglyMoobs, on 18 April 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

I'm seeing you in game quite a bit. I think it will be more exciting if you upgrade to lrm80. Let your teammates protect you from the lights.

JigglyMoobs, on 18 April 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

I think it will be more exciting if you upgrade to lrm80.

JigglyMoobs, on 18 April 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

LRM80

LRM80: "Pray into the microphone, I shall deliver..."

Acehilator, on 18 April 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

...amazing how much impact playstyle differences and personal preference have on performance. I tried LRM30/40 builds for a whole day, cannot make them work at all

It took a while to really get my head around it but by running an LRM30/40 build kills are not the primary goal, it's straight damage. LRMs are a special weapon in that they enable one to do damage when other weapons couldn't. If the LRM30/40 build only starts doing the majority of it's damage at the start of a major brawl it's already failed. "Never engage in a fair fight." LRM support has the opportunity to influence the brawl before it even starts, but more than any weapon there are two gameplay mechanics that affect LRMs more than any other: friendly locks and communication, as well as enemy countermeasures and positioning. Thought of as a team-oriented weapon it's not unexpected that teamwork is what really makes or breaks LRMs.

With the distinct exception of the 6xUAC5 Dire Wolf (and holy geez no wonder people love their dakka,) as of late I've been running lights and mediums with the goal of enabling friendly LRM support as much as possible. Even with one person directing the fire, LRMs become a significant factor in the match; imagine if the whole team had a hand in helping LRMs hit their targets? With how they are now I'd think they'd need a nerf if LRMs weren't considered a weapon for individual use, but instead a shared resource for the team.

...as a side note, LRMs sound like communism.

[Valasharia]

JigglyMoobs, on 18 April 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

I'm seeing you in game quite a bit. I think it will be more exciting if you upgrade to lrm80. Let your teammates protect you from the lights.

I gave your idea a try. It works, but it uses up missiles at a fantastic rate and I also had a problem with overheating. I always try out my new configurations in Caustic Valley so that might have been part of the problem, however, I am not always going to be playing on the snow maps so I always try a worst case scenario to see if that works.

There is also the fact that an LRM 20 takes 6 seconds to recycle whereas the LRM 15 takes only 4.5, so the weight of metal heading in the direction of the enemy is is the same if firing is continuous. For example, let's say I fire four LRM 20s three times in 18 seconds - that delivers 240 missiles to the enemy. However, in the same time four LRM 15s would cycle four times, also delivering 240 missiles. Given the fact that in my best game my backup pulse lasers killed three enemy mechs I think I will stick to my current configuration.

[JigglyMoobs]

Valasharia, on 19 April 2017 - 08:12 PM, said:

I gave your idea a try. It works, but it uses up missiles at a fantastic rate and I also had a problem with overheating. I always try out my new configurations in Caustic Valley so that might have been part of the problem, however, I am not always going to be playing on the snow maps so I always try a worst case scenario to see if that works.

There is also the fact that an LRM 20 takes 6 seconds to recycle whereas the LRM 15 takes only 4.5, so the weight of metal heading in the direction of the enemy is is the same if firing is continuous. For example, let's say I fire four LRM 20s three times in 18 seconds - that delivers 240 missiles to the enemy. However, in the same time four LRM 15s would cycle four times, also delivering 240 missiles. Given the fact that in my best game my backup pulse lasers killed three enemy mechs I think I will stick to my current configuration.

Yeah, but then your enemies won't scream "HOLY **** WTF" on VOIP when you shoot them.

[Zergling]

Valasharia, on 19 April 2017 - 08:12 PM, said:

There is also the fact that an LRM 20 takes 6 seconds to recycle whereas the LRM 15 takes only 4.5, so the weight of metal heading in the direction of the enemy is is the same if firing is continuous. For example, let's say I fire four LRM 20s three times in 18 seconds - that delivers 240 missiles to the enemy. However, in the same time four LRM 15s would cycle four times, also delivering 240 missiles. Given the fact that in my best game my backup pulse lasers killed three enemy mechs I think I will stick to my current configuration.

Those LRM cooldown times are incorrect; IS LRM15 has 4.00 second CD, IS LRM20 has 4.30 second CD, Clan LRM15 has 4.30 second CD, Clan LRM20 has 4.60 second CD.

Larger missile racks always have more DPS than smaller racks in MWO; they just aren't as DPS/tonnage efficient.

[JigglyMoobs]

Zergling, on 20 April 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

Those LRM cooldown times are incorrect; IS LRM15 has 4.00 second CD, IS LRM20 has 4.30 second CD, Clan LRM15 has 4.30 second CD, Clan LRM20 has 4.60 second CD.

Larger missile racks always have more DPS than smaller racks in MWO; they just aren't as DPS/tonnage efficient.

Ahh, that makes more sense.

Plus, people who are decently good at this game usually won't give you more than one chance to get a really good LRM hit on them, and 4 lasers are not really enough to deter any determined attacker.

In the example Valasharia gave, 18 seconds is an eternity. If someone gave you 18 seconds to get really good hits on them, they are not very good.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 20 April 2017 - 02:33 AM.