184 replies to this topic

[WhineyThePoo]

So? **** happens. **** can happen to other people as well, no need to start throwing out arbitrary numbers that people must live up to or they dont get to play. How are people supposed to learn if they dont play?

And yes som skills such as basic aiming and group moving you can pick up in QP. Map knowledge and positioning is a bit harder to learn if you are not allowed to play in those maps.

[The Basilisk]

The Problem of this game aren't the vast majority of players just trying and gimping around wanting to have some fun with big stompy bots but rather ppl like the post opener with their elitist upside down view of the world.

Not the players have to go anywhere.

The sign at the entrance should say "hey elite guys youre a nuisance to everyone else and spoiling ppls fun."
Pls go and make your own little elite gatherings and kill each other.
Have fun doing so.

[Davegt27]

FP was a ghost town before 4.1 so even with the free Mech Bays there had to be problems

its crazy to think putting people in the 2 bucket system that it will solve the problems in the long term

if you have several trains running from New York to DC but the numbers are low for each train
so your solution is to have just two trains
sure you will fill up the two trains

but maybe the train running at 30 mph is the real problem

[Appogee]

WhineyThePoo, on 08 January 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

So? **** happens. **** can happen to other people as well, no need to start throwing out arbitrary numbers that people must live up to or they dont get to play. How are people supposed to learn if they dont play?

I answered that in my OP. And the point was about people repeatedly doing less than (arbitrary and low number of) 500. Not some random one-off incident.

As for 'learning'... I don't believe new players getting plonked repeatedly into stomps - like the ones you and your buddies are inflicting on noobs today - are learning anything.

Once again, I don't begrudge you and other skilled pilots playing in groups winning matches. You deserve to win through individual skill and group coordination. The mode was *designed* for skilled players and groups.

My concern is that dropping teams unskilled soloists against large skilled groups will kill FP completely. Yet again.

WhineyThePoo, on 08 January 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

And yes som skills such as basic aiming and group moving you can pick up in QP. Map knowledge and positioning is a bit harder to learn if you are not allowed to play in those maps.

Only the Invasion maps are different to QP maps. And due to the tug-of-war approach, they are seen less frequently now, and only at the end of attack phases.

The Basilisk, on 08 January 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

The sign at the entrance should say "hey elite guys youre a nuisance to everyone else and spoiling ppls fun." Pls go and make your own little elite gatherings and kill each other.
Have fun doing so.

I don't agree. I think there should be a mode in MWO which is for the most skilled and experienced. The Black Diamond Run of the ski resort.

FP can be that. We are so close.

But you don't let noobs derp around on toboggans on the Black Diamond Run. They have to qualify by demonstrating some level of competence, so they don't ruin it for themselves and others.

Edited by Appogee, 08 January 2017 - 01:23 PM.

[WhineyThePoo]

I hope that they learnt something, thats how I learn. And how most of my team mates learn.

This is how it went for me when I started playing.

I dropped in FP, I got my *** kicked, but instead of having som elitegodübermensch just telling me that I suck and that I cant play, some nice people told me what I should do instead. What mechs, what guns, where to go. And Voila, from being a complete waste of space of sub 500 dmg, I am now a complete waste of space doing 1000-1500 dmg.
I found a group of people to play with, I have fun, I tell my friends that this game is fun, I even buy a mech pack every now and then.

Had someone just told me to piss of I would probably just have stopped playing.

Edited by WhineyThePoo, 08 January 2017 - 02:18 PM.

[SFC174]

Interesting thread. Am just a few games away from 2000 matches and about 9 months of play myself and have never played CW. In part because back when I first started it didn't seem very welcoming to noobs, and also because I'm a casual player (offline for days at a time, then binge for 6 hrs) who doesn't use teamspeak (or VOIP period, don't ask). Thus it seemed like I'd be seriously handicapped in CW (and would be handicapping my team).

Anyways, it sounds like I should continue to avoid CW. But what jumps out at me most in this thread is the problem with matching up people of wildly differing skill levels. Unfortunately this seems to be just as big a problem in QP as well. Tier5 players aren't supposed to meet Tier1 players, but it seems to be happening more and more (I am dead solid in the middle of Tier3 myself). 12-0, 12-1, 12-2 matches are very, very common, and its not fun even if you're the stomper, let alone the stompee. I remember when I first entered Tier3 I was feeling pretty good about myself having run through Tier4 pretty quick, then I met the buzzsaw of numerous Tier1 players and even contemplated giving the game up it hurt so bad. I got over it and got better, but getting torched and not even seeing it coming is a wakeup.

PGI has a matchmaking problem across the board in this game. Its the biggest hindrance to quality, enjoyable play. I don't know if or how they can fix it, especially if the player population is as small as some suggest. But until someone comes up with a solid matchmaking solution, it seems to me that threads like this are like beating your head against a brick wall.

[Spheroid]

@SFC: People keep claiming T1 mixes with T5 in QP. However the only way to verify that is if a T5 has his tier publically viewable and has a forum post. That is not as common as one thinks. If you have any screenshots please share as tier distribution is of interest to me

Edited by Spheroid, 08 January 2017 - 07:16 PM.

[Xiphias]

SFC174, on 08 January 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

But what jumps out at me most in this thread is the problem with matching up people of wildly differing skill levels. Unfortunately this seems to be just as big a problem in QP as well.

QP has some matchmaking problems, but it is nowhere near the level it is in CF/FW/FP. Faction play can be orders of magnitude worse than QP. There is no matchmaking so you can end up with a 12 man group of good T1 players playing a group of 12 random T5 players filled with LRMs and trials, affectionately referred to as "skittles". You think a 12-0 stomp is bad imagine what a 48-4 stomp looks like.

It's not always this way, but there's no way of knowing if it will be a close 48-47 game or a complete roll. Usually, rolls are more common and players who can't put up 500 damage in 4 mechs are a big part of it. QP balance is amazing compared to the average FP match.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Xiphias, on 08 January 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

There is no matchmaking so you can end up with a 12 man group of good T1 players playing a group of 12 random T5 players filled with LRMs and trials,

Its supposed to be that way. That isn't a problem. It's assumed that those 12 know what they are doing.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 08 January 2017 - 07:42 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

i think the only real problem here (and theres a lot which exacerbates it, balance, potatoe level skill, crappy builds/mechs) is the players who dont listen. even if your lined up with 11 other pugs as long as someone takes charge and the rest actually listen then match quality would improve a lot. I find its still organistaion and communication that make the most difference.

Maybe have a tutorial you must play where the sole objective is to listen to some voice or text and do what it says. if you cant pass you dont get in.

[AccessTime]

What they really need is a 'bridge' mode or something like FW-lite, I think the jump from QP to FW is just too much for some people. For instance, people don't seem to understand how to play conquest or domination when you have 4 respawns, so much cowardice...

Or allow matches with less than 12 mechs, like if you have a group with only 9 players, let it drop against another group of 9 (if there's one out there in queue) rather than getting filled out with pugs. Finally interface changes, ie. a quick way for pugs to be invited to join a group after the game is over.

[WANTED]

Oh alright at the sake of looking like the terribad player I am, I will give my take. I am tier 3 and have been there for 2 years now I believe? I started tier 4. I'm in a unit and we have guys who do 2k damage easily to guys like me who do avg 1000-1400 and then guys who do much less. Honestly. I don't think it's about the damage as much as "did you help your team in any way ", I think every great team has those role players that are not great, like me. I bring some skills that the game does not take into account -sometimes I am good at harassment and getting the team to focus the wrong way, I may do **** damage but we might win cause I allowed the rest of our team to get the objective or surprise the enemy ) Sometimes I suck and even I don't understand some of the FW rules to this day even though I have played for years. Hey I'm not happy that after all these years I still am not as good as many of the long playing players and those in this forum post. I don't know why ( could be my setup, could be my reflexes, could be my ignorance or all of those combined ) Who knows. I do know that all I want on my team are those that listen and willing to sacrifice when told and role players round out the team in my opinion. We can't all be the Tom Brady of the team.

[Appogee]

WANTED, on 08 January 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

Oh alright at the sake of looking like the terribad player I am, I will give my take. I am tier 3 and have been there for 2 years now I believe? I started tier 4. I'm in a unit and we have guys who do 2k damage easily to guys like me who do avg 1000-1400 and then guys who do much less. Honestly. I don't think it's about the damage as much as "did you help your team in any way ", I think every great team has those role players that are not great, like me. I bring some skills that the game does not take into account -sometimes I am good at harassment and getting the team to focus the wrong way, I may do **** damage but we might win cause I allowed the rest of our team to get the objective or surprise the enemy ) Sometimes I suck and even I don't understand some of the FW rules to this day even though I have played for years. Hey I'm not happy that after all these years I still am not as good as many of the long playing players and those in this forum post. I don't know why ( could be my setup, could be my reflexes, could be my ignorance or all of those combined ) Who knows. I do know that all I want on my team are those that listen and willing to sacrifice when told and role players round out the team in my opinion.

Doesn't sound like you're part of the problem. You're part of a team, you're contributing.

WANTED, on 08 January 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

We can't all be the Tom Brady of the team.

500 damage across 4 Mechs is nowhere near "Tom Brady" level. It's a very low bar. But I agree with your point that there are other valuable ways to contribute beyond just damage.

Edited by Appogee, 08 January 2017 - 11:57 PM.

[Appogee]

WhineyThePoo, on 08 January 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

I dropped in FP, I got my *** kicked, but instead of having som elitegodübermensch just telling me that I suck and that I cant play, some nice people told me what I should do instead.

Because you only play in a large group of experienced players, I guess you must be out of touch with the reality of what's going on in these soloist teams that you're farming.

First, I and many other players do try to give direction to the new players. Some will follow it to the best of their abilities. Others completely ignore it ... could be a language issue, or maybe an attitude issue. Either way, some number of people on the team ignore the strategy and advice being given.

When you and your buddies in a large group show up, and effortlessly focus fire a complete wave of 12 solists in the space of a minute, the new players give up on listening to advice. Sometimes they blame the experienced player who is trying to help them (ie "your plan didn't work I'm doing my own thing").

Frankly, it seems like you just enjoy the opportunity to farm potatoes in a large group. So the mere suggestion about creating qualification criteria for unskilled players, or creating more even matches by matching groups to groups, is disparaged as "elitegodübermenschism".

How ironic.

Edited by Appogee, 08 January 2017 - 11:56 PM.

[Sjorpha]

I made a topic a week ago suggesting a skill cap for solo pugging FP, but allow all skill levels in groups of 4+.

That way no one is excluded, but new/bad players must actively seek out grouping up and communicating to play.

Seems to me that would kill two birds with one stone without offending either side of the issue.

Edited by Sjorpha, 08 January 2017 - 11:40 PM.

[SFC174]

@Spheroid

I can't provide any specific names, but I do recall a NGNG video with Phil where player in the match was asking how he got in the same game as Phil as he was Tier5. I believe that happened to another regular youtuber (maybe Snuggles?).

I have been in a couple matches where guys on my team were running trial mechs and apologized before the game saying they had only been playing a couple days, yet I was able to identify at least one reasonably well known Tier1 player from a major team (228, etc) on the opposing side.

Anecdotal I know, but given the number of games in QP where I see one team with 4 guys below 100 dmg and 6-8 with less than 200 while the opposing team has a couple of 800-1000 dmg player with multiple kills, it seems like matchmaker is definitely screwy. Problem seems worse during events after new mech releases where everyone is trying to play the same weight class.

[MacClearly]

M A N T I S, on 05 January 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

Nice attitude.

We need more players to be encouraged to play this mode and be excited about it. You're placing barriers for many of these new players by this type of subversive shaming. Everyone is allowed to play. If it bothers you, tough. Pugs join, do poorly, you both move on. Don't forget, it's only by that player's choice to join that you were able to fill out your (or opponent's) group in the first place to get a game. Be thankful you have others to play with and against.

This attitude is far too elitist. All are welcome.

I think the argument is that for FW to be fun for everyone involved and not implode in on itself as it seems to be doing. Meeting a minimum requirement is and only would be elitist if the bar was set really high. No where have I seen people doing that in these conversations. There is also nothing 'subversive' about saying outright that this is not a friendly mode for new players, in fact it is the opposite.

So to have a competitive mode that by design requires more coordination and teamwork open to people who are not ready or in some cases completely unwilling to do some very simple and easy things to be ready for this mode makes very little sense.

I am Canadian so I am going to put it like this. Many things have to happen before you can play hockey. First you have to buy skates. Then you have to learn how to skate. This is before you can even begin to think about actually playing or learning hockey. Then you go buy the right equipment to actually play hockey. Someone will have to show you how to even put the equipment on properly. Now that you can skate, and know how to get dressed, you can start to learn how to play the actual game. Many different games and things worth while in life are like FW and hockey. Why would it make sense to have the bar so low that you would want to mix people just learning with pros???

[Lily from animove]

MacClearly, on 09 January 2017 - 12:56 AM, said:

I am Canadian so I am going to put it like this. Many things have to happen before you can play hockey. First you have to buy skates. Then you have to learn how to skate. This is before you can even begin to think about actually playing or learning hockey. Then you go buy the right equipment to actually play hockey. Someone will have to show you how to even put the equipment on properly. Now that you can skate, and know how to get dressed, you can start to learn how to play the actual game. Many different games and things worth while in life are like FW and hockey. Why would it make sense to have the bar so low that you would want to mix people just learning with pros???

wait, are you saying hockey is not inbred in canadians?

but jokes aside, just imagine your entire hockey population is 10 people. how can you then play hockey without having to mix newbies and pros?

Edited by Lily from animove, 09 January 2017 - 03:50 AM.

[MacClearly]

Lily from animove, on 09 January 2017 - 03:49 AM, said:

wait, are you saying hockey is not inbred in canadians?

but jokes aside, just imagine your entire hockey population is 10 people. how can you then play hockey without having to mix newbies and pros?

No our parents don't have to be related to play hockey.

If the entire population was 10 people, hockey would be lost. That isn't enough for two teams even and is too extreme an example to be a useful comparison.

One thing this new system lacks that the old system had was the ability to see how many people were lined up on a planet. Two months ago during it's busiest times, FW at most would have 150-200 people playing across several buckets. Under a hundred people playing in total was very common and it was very possible to not get a match at all.

This new system seems to have injected more players into the mix. Using these numbers and thinking about the old ones, then consider what needs to be done about attraction and retention. If not it will certainly return to the previous low population count.

It is my contention that before anything else is looked at or changed in FW, especially tech, the skill level disparity and matchmaking need to be addressed first. To me this needs to be done and quickly before tonnage nerfs or any other temporary fixes. If this first step is not taken, I believe anything else attempted is doomed to fail.

[Willard Phule]

Hey, here's an idea....two queues for FW.

"I want to win" and "I don't care if I win or not."

The "I want to win" queue can have all sorts of prereqs invloved...including no trial mechs. The other one can be for the potatoes.