184 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

Stonebiter, on 06 January 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

i really see a lot of complaining here in the forums but nobody wants to help new players. When do you understand that new players are the base for keeping MWO alive ? You have to help them, you have to lead them in the battles when you are a experienced player.
But what do the most "experienced" players ? Right, they do their own thing and complain when they lose.Example. We dropped wit 5 man from 228. Rest PUG. They did not even say hi or something else... nothing, not 1 word. Pulled out 2k+ damage each, died, left, lost. Positive was that they weren't complaining at all.
I dropped so often with some units but they have just refused the lead. That isn't how it should be. When you are experienced or the biggest unit in the drop you MUST LEAD. Take your mic and tell the people what they have to do. Your unexperienced PUGers often die just because they are at the wrong spots and don't know where they should go. If i'm in the right spot i can also do a shitload of damage even with trial mechs. But if i run straight into the enemie team i can't do even 50 damage.

Every "experienced" player can complain. But the most of them are not aware that they also have a responsibility for the new players. Remember the new players are the future for that game.

We do need more responsibility taken in that department, trying to leverage the puggies through leadership is very important. But quite a lot of the good players are actually terrible drop callers or simply not very communicative people. A lot of the time when you see these smaller groups of good players they actually don't talk to each other either, their coordination is just having played together a lot. There are usually only a few people stepping up to drop call, even in the strongest units, and when those few people aren't online there will be no one to lead anything.

As a shameless plug, we welcome all new players to the FRR hub and will help you find groups to drop in and help you git gud, this is a much better bet that dropping solo and hoping that someone will spontaneously call the match.

Honestly, it is new players that needs units and grouping up the most, it takes a lot more skill to drop solo and it's a really bad idea to do it if you're new. The faction hubs are very welcoming and you don't need to join a unit just get in there and find a nice open group and abracadabra your faction play experience will be 10 times more fun just because you spent those 5 minutes to download teamspeak and log on to the hub.

[BigScwerl]

Yeah I have a mixed feeling on this one, but I feel like it is important to allow pug nerbs into the fold when there is space in groups.

I really like CW, its fun and engaging, but the amount of time it would have taken me as a wee booger to earn C-bills to own 4 of my own mechs was staggering especially for Clan Mechs, a starting deck costs at least 60k C-bills, not including customization or mistake builds, etc... I played many CW matches in ALL trial mechs, for weeks probably. I'm sure I sucked a lot at first, but I tried to listen, and when I got into a few really good games with good players that were talking and planning, I knew I had to have more of that...that is the reason I'm still playing now.

A few weeks ago I was calling a game with a few pugs, playing an organized team, I will decline to give names... We were talking and planning and a few pugs listened and came along for the ride. They did **** for damage, but at least they were part of the show... afterwords a few of them friend-ed me and commented that it was the best game of CW they had ever played.....just like that, we build community. We can't be crusty old boogers, we need to be supportive and inviting to new players, even if they kinda suck. If they are that poor, don't invite them to your unit (I've seen worse damage from pilots in great units, FYI) play the game, then never see them again, or hope that they learned something.

[Jumping Gigolo]

while playing FP...

[Appogee]

Another FP loss.

4 players couldn't do 500 damage playing as Clan on Boreal. 1 lost all his Mechs before the 3rd wave, having done 290 damage. 6 lost all their Mechs by the 4th wave, leading to the rest of us being spawn-camped.

"But you should have helped them."

Yeah, tried that. Apparently "wait and regroup at the gates" and "don't stand here, flank right" were beyond their capabilities.

Edited by Appogee, 06 January 2017 - 11:22 AM.

[Big Bertha 00]

What type of restrictions could PGI implement to make sure more experienced players are playing while still allowing virtually anyone who wants to play FW the ability to do so?

1) 100 match minimum before FP unlocks?

2) You must own at least 3 mechs before FP unlocks?

3) Your suggestions here_____________

While neither of these will guarantee expert players, they should at least keep out people who cannot perform basic piloting skills.

The other feature that would help would be some sort of social lobby to further encourage grouping up. Maybe direct in-game links to the Comstar Teamspeak page when opening FW. Or a link to the TS page of the faction you signed a contract with, Kurita, FRR, etc.

[WVAnonymous]

I agree with everyone.

• There should be a minimum skill threshold.
  
• There should be a tutorial for each game mode.
  
• Making it restrictive to the minimum skill threshold will reduce the number of players below a viable minimum.

Maybe add a "training cadre" option to the LFG that's open for 25 matches like the cadet bonus?

WV

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 06 January 2017 - 02:13 AM, said:

What I'd really like is 'Tiers' to FW. There needs to be a weighting of how much impact your teams win/loss has on actually moving the needle to take the planets. So if you're MS in a 12man dropping against puggles their loss gets the Clans 0.5%. If the pugs beat MS however the IS gets 5%. If MS plays 228, winner gets 5% either way. Pugs play pugs, 1% change.

Make sense?

That's a negative.

I would rather have a campaign system with a strategic component that lets the players decide who gets to fight whom. Frankly, I've had enough of these simplistic linear progression "algorithms" used to decide who gets a planet.

Insufficient Skill, on 06 January 2017 - 04:56 AM, said:

FP needs to be unlocked like an achievement, it needs to have at least a minimal tutorial of it's own (like, what to do in which game mode, for example NOT shooting directly at the gates...) and it needs to be split queue between groups and PUGs.

Nope. See above.

Edited by Mystere, 06 January 2017 - 11:24 AM.

[RaptorCWS]

ViperLam, on 06 January 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

I agree with everything you say.

Being a Tier 6 i don't have any fun playing (getting stomped in) FW. But even if i were a Tier 3 i can't agree with anyone who says the inner sphere has any chance of winning ANY matches. As of this date, 2017-01-06, have you noticed anything about the stellar map? It seems to me the clans are advancing in an unstoppable manner. I don't see any tactical way for any Inner Sphere unit to win a planet and the only strategic way to win this war is if nobody IS plays FW. Since there are no more ghost drops, the clanners would never drop, no drops means they can't win.

If FW is only for the best of the best then you are right, 98% of us shouldn't play this mode. What i don't understand then, is why? Why would a company's product be available for all to play but only meant to be used by almost no one?

How about this? What if PGI places qualifying restrictions of FW? What if Tier 2's and 1's could be the only ones allowed to play FW, could this satisfy your request to keep out the one's you don't want in this (not your) game?

If it will make you feel better, i will stop playing FW until i become Tier 2. But as i am a Tier 6, and by definition, that will never happen. You see, a Tier 6 is a player that, no matter how many matches i win, my status bar never moves, my lost matches never get a = result, and when there are no FW matches because no one will play anymore, where the hell do you think all those ''competitive players'' are going to go? That's right, to QP...welcome to my world.

Here is the problem. its not that pugs are bad and we dont want to play with them. and you will find on clan side units are much more likely to give advice on mechs and builds that work in faction play and inviting them to join their unit or drop with them if they follow instructions. I was actually pretty bad when i started before i joined my unit and i generally pull more than my own weight now (last night i had an awful night). but the unit told me what were good mechs to bring and which were not and what builds work well for the game mode. instead of getting upset that someone who was pulling 4x my score was telling me how to get better and to play differently I took their advice and things are working out pretty well. being a pug like that will get you invited to join their unit or at least stay in the group for the rest of the night.

but you also have the other kind of pug. and this is the kind of pug hard core players can not stand. they decide to bring way less than the max tonnage. like 4 lights. or drop their lightest mech first, even when asked politely to bring their heaviest first. this puts the whole team at a tonnage disadvantage from the start. then you have pugs who decide to bring bad builds. like lrm boating light mechs. or lrm boats in general. now in mech 2-4 i did enjoy lrms as a weapon system in campaign. but there is a major flaw in the weapon system for 12 v 12 where multiple mechs can target one mech and vaporize it with an alpha each. The first problem with lrms, they spread damage all over the enemy mech. I'd much rather have a weapon system that hits one component dealing all of its damage to one part and if everyone on the team is doing that all hitting one mechs ct they fall over instantly. the second problem a lot of lrm boaters sit way out of range and the lrms never make it to the target, or the rest of the team killed the mech 12 seconds before the lrms get there. so now the team with the lrm boat has one less person to soak enemy damage and is providing no damage.
now some units bring lrms and have a strategy that can work, but it wont work against a good unit where they all have radar derp and knows how to use cover, but dont bring them as a pug assuming that your team mates will even get and hold locks for you. if you just got the mech and it came with lrms and you absolutely must have them until you can replace them for a more brawly srm build do to cbill reasons, get up ther with your team and get your own locks. dont get past the minimum range but 500m where you can get your own locks is fine. at that point you are at least contributing to the team even if you arent doing too much to core out a mech.

then you also have the pugs who actively go against the team strategy or drop callers calls. runs off by themselves, runs in and gets insta killed or reveals the teams location. Its the pugs who clearly arent even trying to win that people have a problem with.

the IS have way more pugs marching to lose matches faster than their 12mans can win them thus causing the amounts of losses for the IS not to win an attack phase. and this is in no way saying the clans dont have pugs like that. we do, and my unit had the great pleasure of having someone in an lrm kodiak shooting at 2k meters away and hitting nothing and when told his shots wernt connecting and that there were better builds on that mech to bring they just responded with whatever and continued to shoot at out of range targets.

We actually want more players on both sides to get better. continuous rofl stomps arent fun. I would not suggest you quitting the game mode. I actually encourage you to find a unit on the IS side join their teamspeak and ask what builds on mechs you have will work the best and what are the mechs you should be working towards building out and dropping with them. most are willing to help. FRR/kurita's hub seams to be pretty active and im sure someone there would be glad to help you get better. no one is under the impression that someone who is not a top tier right now could never be. so go find a group you like to play with and who are willing to help you improve.

[MischiefSC]

Appogee, on 06 January 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

Another FP loss.

4 players couldn't do 500 damage playing as Clan on Boreal. 1 lost all his Mechs before the 3rd wave, having done 290 damage. 6 lost all their Mechs by the 4th wave, leading to the rest of us being spawn-camped.

"But you should have helped them."

Yeah, tried that. Apparently "wait and regroup at the gates" and "don't stand here, flank right" were beyond their capabilities.

A critical component we're going to struggle with is separating the newbies and don'tknows who will listen and try and actually benefit from playing with experienced players from the unfixably stupid and don'tcares who resent anyone trying to help them or win the match.

The first group is valuable. We need tools to help them better and get them wrapped into the stuff that makes MWO really fun - coordinated drops, teamwork, all that cool stuff.

The second group is worthless. They're dead weight and you'd probably be better off if they discoed but only so much you can do about them.

What you don't want to do is abandon the first group while trying to tune out the useless static that is the second group.

[Davegt27]

wow 4 pages in one day
OP consider your request CW (as we used to say in the military)

I do have a request of my own and that is
ask PGI to allow people to opt out of CW/FW/FP with out loss of loyalty points if the breaking of the contract is 6 months or longer

I put in a request to support but they said no but if more people asked maybe they will change there minds

I feel like I earned those loyalty points and being stiffed 25% does not seem right to me (I don't mind the other penalties)

they should have reset things at the start of 4.1 but oh well

davegt27

[Sadaaki Akamatsu]

I'm a new player and as such it has been made clear that new players like me are not welcome in FP. The OP is just the latest reminder of that.

Sadly, QP is only slightly more welcoming. I find in QP new players are often but not always berated and treated like crap.

Where should a new player go to learn and pay this game?

[MischiefSC]

Sadaaki Akamatsu, on 06 January 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'm a new player and as such it has been made clear that new players like me are not welcome in FP. The OP is just the latest reminder of that.

Sadly, QP is only slightly more welcoming. I find in QP new players are often but not always berated and treated like crap.

Where should a new player go to learn and pay this game?

Read some of the later posts. If you want to learn, group up, etc then absolutely you should be learning in FP. There's a lot of teams dropping there who can help you. Please take the time to get into the FRR/Kurita TS, hop down to a room with people in it and get grouped up. Reach out and people will help you.

There's a segment of the population however that responds very, very poorly to offers to help them or suggestions on how to play better so most of us won't offer to help unless asked.

That segment sandbags the holy hell out of their teams. They do not *want* to get better or play with the team. That's the people we're trying to seperate out. They want to play FP like it's QP, which just screws their team.

New players are a different thing all together. Make it clear you're new, get into TS and you'll get all the help you can take. The other day I was in a 12man helping 2 newbies. With the premium time promo they were making around 1 million cbills per drop.

What's critical to understand is that this is a team game. There is no real "solo play". So you need to play with a team to really learn.

You don't have to join a unit, just seek out teams to play with.

[RaptorCWS]

Sadaaki Akamatsu, on 06 January 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'm a new player and as such it has been made clear that new players like me are not welcome in FP. The OP is just the latest reminder of that.

Sadly, QP is only slightly more welcoming. I find in QP new players are often but not always berated and treated like crap.

Where should a new player go to learn and pay this game?

https://mwomercs.com...-hubs-to-merge/
get team speak and go here tell them you are new and you want to learn to play and get better. someone will probably help you out.

Edited by RaptorCWS, 06 January 2017 - 02:52 PM.

[Deathlike]

While I see people sub 800 damage being dealt by teammates (200 damage per mech is not much to ask for IMO, especially when you can make up the damage even if you screw up once or twice), it feels nice personally in a selfish way (I get a better payout), but it's not healthy to carry other people to a significant degree (more people doing poorly on your team means you're going to have to do a lot more to make up for it).

I wished more players doing poorly would ask for advice, instead of trying to do it "all by themselves" and usually failing miserably.. while complaining against the opfor that doesn't repeat their mistakes.

It's just a pipedream though, and the only real way of mitigates skills differences is having bigger groups/units play with the random/new FP player to be shown how it is done.

I don't believe in Tier gating or anything that separates the new player from the good player... you don't really get better as you play to the level of your competition. How you do you see good/great play if you play against people that are strictly at your level? Sure your matches will be fair, but will you grow and progress? It doesn't generally happen in this instance. It's why solo quick play is radically different from group quick play, and that's before we get into Faction Play.

I do believe that there still should be some requirements for people before coming into FP, like being able to set up a complete dropdeck (ideally devoid of any trial mechs) with each weight class being represented (ideally elited out). Mind you, that will still take time and money, but at least you can adjust your mechs and builds as necessary (trial mechs do not allow for this in the first place).


TL;DR

There's a core reason why I don't regularly play FP... it's boring and shallow (especially when the core problems still exist) when the differences in skill/builds/intelligence get magnified and people won't take responsibility for their failures.. or at the very least acknowledge that they could/should do better. The problems don't change (mostly because of PGI not understanding what is necessary and what it takes to fix this) and there honestly is no quick fix. Time and effort have to be spent to get better, but also to make a better game... and PGI isn't seemingly willing to address it full on.

[Sjorpha]

Sadaaki Akamatsu, on 06 January 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

Where should a new player go to learn and pay this game?

In any of the inclusive units, there are a lot of them.

Or on one of the more active faction hubs.

There is two answers to your question, they are actually true answers for realzies.

Do it! Do it today!

[slide]

Appogee, on 06 January 2017 - 01:39 AM, said:

I expected to be criticised for being "elitist". And to hear the "but we need more players" argument. Let me address both briefly.

On "elitism":

Faction Play was designed to be the end game for experienced players. When inexperienced players distort the teams in Faction Play, it destroys the mode for everyone. My request is about making the mode payoff in the way that it was designed.

My request is not dissimilar to the way ski resorts grade and gate their ski runs. Inexperienced skiers aren't permitted on Black Diamond runs because they ruin it not only for themselves, but also the experienced skiers.


On "but we need more players":

Getting consistently stomped by experienced teams - after a 15 minute wait for a match, and 20 frustrating minutes of getting instagibbed - will not keep new players playing FP. The opposite is true.

Worse, inexperienced players make experienced players desert the mode, too.

For example, my unit can only mount a 6-man to play Faction Play, at best. When the other 6 players we're dropped with are experienced FPers, we can put up a good fight against the organised 12-mans. Win or lose, it's a satisfying battle.

However, when we are dropped with 3 or 4 inexperienced players, it often becomes an impossible carry. Eg. Yesterday we dropped with PUGs who contributed 150, 180, 265, and 350 damage each. Despite us providing strategic advice on voice comms, their individual piloting skills and sub-standard loadouts made them cannon fodder for our experienced opponents. They lost all four of their Mechs by the 3rd wave, leaving the rest of playing 8 v 12 for two waves.

I now have trouble convincing the experienced players in my unit to play FP. While they generally like the mode, they are frustrated with trying to carry impossible* numbers of completely inexperienced players.

So: to retain players in FP, we should gate the inexperienced players who are breaking the mode for themselves, and for the other players the mode was designed for.

All of which is an argument for a match maker of some kind which separates the masses into the good, the bad and the ugly.

No game in the history of anything has survived on the premise of only the good may enter, without providing a training ground of some kind to groom new players or to keep those unsuitable entertained but out of the big leagues. QP is not that training ground, it only develops selfish, bad habits.

Lets look at MWO's history of elitist snobberry and see where it got us.

-12man group queue, went the way of the dodo because good steams stomped the snot out of lesser ones until there where either 2 teams left playing each other over and over or none at all.
-CW1, MS amongst others stomped the snot out of all the lesser teams and pugs until the wait times become unbearable.
-CW2, repeat of CW1
-CW3, Long Tom stomped the snot out of the IS due to clan scouting superiority, until wait time became unbearable and there were only a few teams if any playing.

Now you want to do the same thing by excluding everyone else that doesn't measure up to your particular standard (what ever that is).

You and everyone like you need to get over the idea that CW is your exclusive play ground, it's a part of the game that should be available to everyone in some form. Gate it by all means into different tiers based on skill, but excluding 80% of the player base will just consign the whole mode to the scrap heap in the same way that has happened before.

[Appogee]

slide, on 06 January 2017 - 09:57 PM, said:

You and everyone like you need to get over the idea that CW is your exclusive play ground, it's a part of the game that should be available to everyone in some form. Gate it by all means into different tiers based on skill, but excluding 80% of the player base will just consign the whole mode to the scrap heap in the same way that has happened before.

I said a matchmaker was needed in this thread, and said it's the necessary answer in many other threads previously. However, as PGI has no plan to actually make one, something else needs to be done to make FP viable.

"You and everyone like you need to get over the idea that" grouping up to ROFLstomp teams hobbled by half a dozen inexperienced players will remain a viable playground for you...



Experienced players and small groups won't keep showing up and serving as cannon fodder for you in impossible carry missions. This will just as surely "consign the whole mode to the scrap heap in the same way that has happened before".

There needs to be qualification criteria to be able to play the mode, matchmaking taking into account group sizes, and even better, a weighted incentive system like the one described by Deathlike earlier in this thread.

Edited by Appogee, 07 January 2017 - 01:18 AM.

[Appogee]

Sadaaki Akamatsu, on 06 January 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

Where should a new player go to learn and pay this game?

Check the recruiting threads and join a unit. Many of them are casual units and have minimal requirements.

Or go to one of the faction hubs and start participating in their group drops. FRR is the most active and is very welcoming of new players.

Edited by Appogee, 07 January 2017 - 12:04 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Big Bertha 00, on 06 January 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

What type of restrictions could PGI implement to make sure more experienced players are playing while still allowing virtually anyone who wants to play FW the ability to do so?

1) 100 match minimum before FP unlocks?

2) You must own at least 3 mechs before FP unlocks?

3) Your suggestions here_____________

While neither of these will guarantee expert players, they should at least keep out people who cannot perform basic piloting skills.

The other feature that would help would be some sort of social lobby to further encourage grouping up. Maybe direct in-game links to the Comstar Teamspeak page when opening FW. Or a link to the TS page of the faction you signed a contract with, Kurita, FRR, etc.

Been saying this for a while now. PGI already has the game mechanics built in to separate people into "at least knowing the basics" and "doesn't have a clue." Would that make a huge difference? I have no idea, but at least you wouldn't have as many potat..er...new players as you do now.

That whole Achievement thing. They even give out titles like Knight Errant, Survivor and FW Beta Veteran. Why not have FW locked out until you have certain Achievements?

- Learned how to move forward.
- Learned how to aim with all three weapon types.
- Learned how to follow a group
- Played X number of QP matches
- Owns a mech

You name it, they've got the tools already. They just don't know how to use them.

[Willard Phule]

Sadaaki Akamatsu, on 06 January 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'm a new player and as such it has been made clear that new players like me are not welcome in FP. The OP is just the latest reminder of that.

Sadly, QP is only slightly more welcoming. I find in QP new players are often but not always berated and treated like crap.

Where should a new player go to learn and pay this game?

Quick Play. Start in Quick Play, do your cadet matches there so you can buy your own mechs. Learn how to aim and use all three weapon types, not just the ones that require target locks.

Learn how to follow the group and focus fire with other teammates. Learn how to navigate without stepping on lights or getting hung up on shadows. Learn how to stay alive.

FP is generally populated by people that own and have customized their own mechs, many times meeting current "meta" specifications to maximize damage. It's supposed to be "hard mode," and if you've ever been spawn camped...that's hard mode. Many times, those mechs are Mastered in the skill tree and have Level 5 modules for both range and recharge. Their mechs outclass the free Trial Mechs in every category you can think of, including pilot skill.

Life is rough. There are no "safe places" on the battlefield. Once you leave the dropship, there are no more coloring books or safety pins. If you drop with the big kids, expect them to play rough. Is what it is. I take a beating just as much as anyone else, since I don't drop in groups.