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If You're Doing <500 Damage Soloing In Faction Play Matches, Please Reconsider Soloing In Fp


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#41 Old-dirty B

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 02:25 AM

If the so called elite that considers FP to be "their" game mode would not be exclusive but rather inclusive towards inexperienced or lower skilled players we would all be better off, mwo and especially fp would not have such a struggle getting a proper playerbase that would allow better matchmaking.

Elite forces or special forces from all around the globe show how this can be done. They work closely together with indigenous forces and act as a force multiplier, look at the early stages of the war in Afghanistan, but many more examples can be given..

Special forces make not so special forces fight better, they significantly enhance their combat effectiveness. FP would improve if MWO elites would do the same!

Put a lance of 4-6 highly skilled players in group of 12 less or inexperienced / skilled players, if we leave out any other advantage, the team that makes best of its experienced and inexperienced players wins. It would even add another layer of complexity and depth to the gameplay that only the skilled has real concerns with. The total skill ceiling will go up because it adds another way to be more effective as a team...

Everybody wins, rather then just a few tryhards...

Edited by B3R3ND, 06 January 2017 - 02:27 AM.


#42 Old-dirty B

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 02:57 AM

An example from my own experience:

Back in the day, about 8 years ago, i played Chromehounds - i started a little late with that about 2008 to 2010 until the servers were closed. At first i played it at potato level just messing about with wacky mechs in quick play until i met a very experienced and above all friendly player named Zinowor, he was looking for new people to start his own team - willing to share his knowledge and improve others introducing them to high tier gameplay.

He gave me a proper mech and in our first battle in the neromious war he came up with a plan, give me and a few other rookies a position and task that made the best of us and allowed us to beat the other much more experienced. This opened a completely different game to me, I was instantly hooked to this high tier gameplay but back then i wasn't able to get there on my own... Such a shame the servers were closed, best gameplay i ever experienced! Since then i have always looked for a way to get a similar fix but nothing gets close...

Anyway, chromehounds was in a similar state as mwo now, potatoes messing around on one side and tryhards on the other, no many were able to crossover. At the end we fought mostly the same few teams and eventually we had nothing to play as the servers were closed..

There needs to be a way were people can be introduced to high level play rather then excluded!

Edited by B3R3ND, 06 January 2017 - 03:46 AM.


#43 Lupis Volk

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 03:02 AM

as MischiefSC said The way to Learn FW is to play FW and have the "elites" teach those willing to learn instead of thumbing their nose at the P.U.G collective. That's how i learnt FW. I was given a trial by fire and was then taught the basics and the skills/tools needed to play FW.

#44 Insufficient Skill

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 03:25 AM

redacted

Edited by Insufficient Skill, 26 February 2017 - 05:13 AM.


#45 Appogee

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 03:52 AM

View PostMischiefSC, on 06 January 2017 - 02:13 AM, said:


What I'd really like is 'Tiers' to FW. There needs to be a weighting of how much impact your teams win/loss has on actually moving the needle to take the planets. So if you're MS in a 12man dropping against puggles their loss gets the Clans 0.5%. If the pugs beat MS however the IS gets 5%. If MS plays 228, winner gets 5% either way. Pugs play pugs, 1% change.

Make sense? This lets you mix populations while mitigating some of the cost. Even better would be match payout on a similar weighting. So MS vs 228 pays better than MS vs pugs. That farming pugs plays less than playing vs other teams. This would also help motivate teams moving around.

Deathlike also had a great 'No Pug Left Behind' idea. You get a match bonus for dropping in an 6-10man and bringing pugs along if you win. You also make more if you lose than you would if you were in a 12man.

These ideas would actually reward players for taking the time, risk and energy to help new players, it would let new players participate without being a costly dead weight to the side they play for and it motivates people to reach across the skill/experience gap to play, which benefits everyone.

Great ideas - I fully support. They deal with the skill differential without gating the playerbase.

#46 Appogee

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 04:00 AM

View PostB3R3ND, on 06 January 2017 - 02:25 AM, said:

If the so called elite that considers FP to be "their" game mode would not be exclusive but rather inclusive towards inexperienced or lower skilled players we would all be better off, mwo and especially fp would not have such a struggle getting a proper playerbase that would allow better matchmaking.

See the OP. PGI explicitly stated that the mode is for experienced players. It's not a matter of opinion.

Regarding inclusiveness. My unit tries to help the unskilled. When people joined our unit, we spent hours teaching and practicing with them and helping them become good pilots and good FP contributors.

However, when we drop into a match with PUGs who are are incapable of torso twisting or aiming at distance, or who bring highly-compromised loadouts, or who are simply unwilling to follow the basic strategies for success, then franky speaking, they ruin the match for everyone.


View PostB3R3ND, on 06 January 2017 - 02:25 AM, said:

Put a lance of 4-6 highly skilled players in group of 12 less or inexperienced / skilled players, if we leave out any other advantage, the team that makes best of its experienced and inexperienced players wins.
If there was a matchmaker than evenly matched the teams this way, fine, that would work. Both sides would have their share of carrying to do.

But there isn't. It's experienced 12-mans stomping small groups due to inexperienced PUGs. That's the reality we have to deal with at the moment.

Edited by Appogee, 06 January 2017 - 04:01 AM.


#47 Old-dirty B

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 04:48 AM

PGI explicitly stated its for experienced players because experienced players were wining about inexperienced players ruining "their" game (see OP Posted Image ). And probably more so to manage expectations of new players when they go FW, because apparently they were complaining as well about experienced players ruining their game...

The message you are referring to is just an easy bandaid and a cheap attempt to get around this issue. A simple "warning" is not going to solve the real problem, another way would have been exclusion of all tier 4 and 5 players from FW but they didn't... because in the end FW needs new people to survive.
If PGI would have designed this game mode in such a way that it can be enjoyed by all players and have room for both experienced and inexperienced with logical paths to progress from inexperienced to experienced we would all be enjoying FW rather then pointing fingers to each other.

Now, we can all keep on complaining about potatoes but we all know that PGI is not going to fix this problem... The only thing YOU can do (and apparently you are already) is to help people progress, include them into FP and get them going (see my post about my experience with Chromehounds).

Ideally you need a good mixture of experienced and inexperienced players on both sides rather then setting them up against each other because thats no fun for nobody.

Also, most elites are well familiar with the term "carry", if you "carry" or maybe even "carry harder" then you are not doing it right ;) You can do all the work yourself or let others do their own work, some need a bit of direction and organisation for that.. I know its not easy, but if you do it right its a true game changer.

Edited by B3R3ND, 06 January 2017 - 05:09 AM.


#48 meteorol

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 04:55 AM

I like this "highly competitive" welcome message. It almost reads as if CW wasn't the premium melting pot of scrubtier players in MWO.

Edited by meteorol, 06 January 2017 - 04:56 AM.


#49 Insufficient Skill

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 04:56 AM

redacted

Edited by Insufficient Skill, 26 February 2017 - 05:04 AM.


#50 Sjorpha

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 05:22 AM

View PostB3R3ND, on 06 January 2017 - 02:25 AM, said:

If the so called elite that considers FP to be "their" game mode would not be exclusive but rather inclusive towards inexperienced or lower skilled players we would all be better off, mwo and especially fp would not have such a struggle getting a proper playerbase that would allow better matchmaking...


I'd like to point out that the OP is not asking for elite only, 500 damage is an extremely low threshold. You are still a newbie or otherwise subpar player when scoring in the 500-1000 average range.

He's just asking people get the first barebones minimal grip on the game before FP, getting above 500 damage across 4 mechs shouldn't take more than a week to learn if you play a couple quickplay matches a day. It's really not a lot to ask and nowhere near anything that could be talked about as "elite" or "tryhard".

#51 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 05:23 AM

FW should require players to be T3 or above and hold a W/L and KDR of at least 0.75 if we were trying to get rid of potatoes. It should also not allow any player who hasn't finished the cadet bonus. Some people go and start up the game and go right into FW without playing the tutorial or any quick play matches.

You need actual barriers and requirements to stop these people (the ones who start up and go into FW, not just T4 and T5 in general), they are the types that often don't listen to anyone, don't read any warnings, don't look up any good builds, don't try to help, and are generally the types of players that no one wants on their team because its obvious they aren't trying to put in an ounce of effort to play as a team.

A new player who communicates, joins up with a unit and coordinates, and has practiced aim and twisting at least in the academy can manage to pull out a win in trial mechs, but it takes effort and a want to work as a team, something sorely lacking in many of the PUGs out there who just join with comms off.

#52 Old-dirty B

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 06:00 AM

View PostSjorpha, on 06 January 2017 - 05:22 AM, said:

He's just asking people get the first barebones minimal grip on the game before FP, getting above 500 damage across 4 mechs shouldn't take more than a week to learn if you play a couple quickplay matches a day. It's really not a lot to ask and nowhere near anything that could be talked about as "elite" or "tryhard".


I know what the OP asks for, although the title does indicate something else.. Anyway, a tutorial or perhaps some sort of qualification course would seem appropriate to "qualify" for participation in FW. But this merely keeps out the true potatoes, those don't know how to play the game at all. It does not solve the real problem that lies underneath, that experienced and inexperienced players are mixed in an imbalanced and unfair manner that can only lead to frustration and rage. If both sides of a game have to deal with pug's by default its a whole different story, then pug's are not considered filler or stand-in but are truly part of the game. A game with 12 man unit vs 6 man unit and a bunch of pugs, these are the problem.. thats where the frustration builds up.

Ps. True high tier gameplay could always be arranged, for example to setup a lobby/game specifically for that group to be matched by a similar group composition obviously potatoes are ruled out unless all of a sudden potatoes start to unite and form groups, which seem very unlikely to me.

Edited by B3R3ND, 06 January 2017 - 06:09 AM.


#53 Lily from animove

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 06:18 AM

it depends, thee are tactics where focus isn't on damage, but pilots who cannot aschieve 500dmg in those FW matches that end up battle scenarios (unlike gen rushing and specific non damage focused tactics) then yes, it is problematic. Thes people really HURT their faction in invasion mode by simply not being able to play the game properly.

I eman whats the point of it, thes people won't probably have fun as they just get farmed and in reverse don't give much back to their team.
Bu then there is the question, if these people all would go, would there be enouhg pop left in CW to make proper regular matches or will we end up with Faction waitfare again?

View Postnaterist, on 05 January 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

i think i understand the flaw in PGI's layout for this game.

FW is the fun mode, but people looking for fun are not welcome there. quick play isnt much fun, so newbs dont wanna go there, but thats the main place theyre welcomed at.


of cours egameing should be for fun, but FW should people motivate to at least not be bad. Thats exactly as hurting the gamemode as those tryhards just form the other side of performance.

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 January 2017 - 06:20 AM.


#54 Appogee

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 06:52 AM

View PostSjorpha, on 06 January 2017 - 05:22 AM, said:


I'd like to point out that the OP is not asking for elite only, 500 damage is an extremely low threshold. You are still a newbie or otherwise subpar player when scoring in the 500-1000 average range.

... It's really not a lot to ask and nowhere near anything that could be talked about as "elite" or "tryhard".


Exactly.

I just played and lost another FP match. 6 players on my team did less than 500 damage. 3 of them did less than 300.

If this mode is to survive, this has to be stopped.

Edited by Appogee, 06 January 2017 - 06:55 AM.


#55 Stonebiter

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 06:56 AM

i really see a lot of complaining here in the forums but nobody wants to help new players. When do you understand that new players are the base for keeping MWO alive ? You have to help them, you have to lead them in the battles when you are a experienced player.
But what do the most "experienced" players ? Right, they do their own thing and complain when they lose.Example. We dropped wit 5 man from 228. Rest PUG. They did not even say hi or something else... nothing, not 1 word. Pulled out 2k+ damage each, died, left, lost. Positive was that they weren't complaining at all.
I dropped so often with some units but they have just refused the lead. That isn't how it should be. When you are experienced or the biggest unit in the drop you MUST LEAD. Take your mic and tell the people what they have to do. Your unexperienced PUGers often die just because they are at the wrong spots and don't know where they should go. If i'm in the right spot i can also do a shitload of damage even with trial mechs. But if i run straight into the enemie team i can't do even 50 damage.

Every "experienced" player can complain. But the most of them are not aware that they also have a responsibility for the new players. Remember the new players are the future for that game.

Edited by Stonebiter, 06 January 2017 - 06:58 AM.


#56 Jon McFuzzy

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 07:00 AM

I have the impression that the OP has good intention, which I could really relate to. I've had the experience from being "Sucks" to "Meh!" to "a So so" - therefore please allow me to give constructive comment:

If you are doing < 500 damage in faction play matches, please try to avoid dropping solo, but mingle along with unit(s); make the sincere effort to be friends with Skilled/experienced players AND more importantly (IMO) you need to ask for inputs/feedback.

Being open to feedback and take action on it will only make you stronger. Trust Me! Posted Image Posted Image

Note: Not every unit would be very welcome though, as some are highly competitive, so you gotta find the right one for you.
If joining a unit is too difficult for you for whatever reason, then at least try to make new friends with experienced players. There are a lot of nice people out there who would be happy to share their knowledge. But you - need - to - take - the initiative!

#57 Appogee

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 07:25 AM

Just played another FP match.

Noone on either team did <500 damage, and it was a good close match.

Clearly, this thread is working ;)

#58 Bud Crue

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 07:58 AM

View PostAppogee, on 06 January 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

Just played another FP match.

Noone on either team did <500 damage, and it was a good close match.

Clearly, this thread is working Posted Image


No.

Its just that I was at the office all night and and there again all day. Don't you worry, if/when I get some free time...maybe even tonight...I will log on and get those damage numbers back down there.

#59 Natural Predator

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 08:00 AM

I get the frustration. I had 13 kills, 20kmdd, and 2200 damage. And still lost the match the other day. So trust me I get where your misplaced frustration comes from. (Thank you davion pilots for not knowing how to torso twist btw). But I think we're missing the boat here. First off trial mechs should only be available in quick play. It should be a requirement that you can at least field a deck of your own mechs before getting into faction play.

Some general advice for puggies.

Start off with your start money on 3 solid medium or light mechs so you can double basic them straight away.
Get whatever solid frontline heavies you want or need after that.
Don't even bother with assault mechs until you have at least 1 set of lights, 2 sets of mediums, 2 sets of heavies.

#60 ViperLam

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 08:15 AM

I agree with everything you say.

Being a Tier 6 i don't have any fun playing (getting stomped in) FW. But even if i were a Tier 3 i can't agree with anyone who says the inner sphere has any chance of winning ANY matches. As of this date, 2017-01-06, have you noticed anything about the stellar map? It seems to me the clans are advancing in an unstoppable manner. I don't see any tactical way for any Inner Sphere unit to win a planet and the only strategic way to win this war is if nobody IS plays FW. Since there are no more ghost drops, the clanners would never drop, no drops means they can't win.

If FW is only for the best of the best then you are right, 98% of us shouldn't play this mode. What i don't understand then, is why? Why would a company's product be available for all to play but only meant to be used by almost no one?

How about this? What if PGI places qualifying restrictions of FW? What if Tier 2's and 1's could be the only ones allowed to play FW, could this satisfy your request to keep out the one's you don't want in this (not your) game?

If it will make you feel better, i will stop playing FW until i become Tier 2. But as i am a Tier 6, and by definition, that will never happen. You see, a Tier 6 is a player that, no matter how many matches i win, my status bar never moves, my lost matches never get a = result, and when there are no FW matches because no one will play anymore, where the hell do you think all those ''competitive players'' are going to go? That's right, to QP...welcome to my world.





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