258 replies to this topic

[MovinTarget]

And no, if you are going to do it, at least you'll be able to stick with the team and not be left behind like a beached whale. Just try to focus down what everyone else is targeting or focus on keeping your team's frontline alive.

[MischiefSC]

S0ulReapr, on 28 January 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

Maybe your unit is just not the right unit for a Mechwarrior who specializes in LRMs. It may be that your unit is not flexible enough to develop tactics and strategies that would make the use of LRMs an asset instead of a liability. This is not a dig against your unit, you probably do very well with an all direct-fire team, but people just need to realize that the meta is the way it is because players have made it that way.

I've played with dozens of teams in FW. I've recently joined KCom and they're a very flexible group- some of us bring LRMs once in a while, if only for giggles. At no point is anyone saying goes they're optimal though, just that if used intelligently by a good player they're not much of a burden. No more so than most sub-optimal builds.

However the difference is that we all know that we're playing a spud build and play accordingly. That's fun sometimes and it's a game.

However the number of players who can play LRMs well without being a burden is like, maybe 10 or 12. Some players have health issues or computer issues and are never going to be seriously competitive and so for them LRMs are a best case scenario.

However historically and without exception in teams of skilled players direct fire crushes LRMs, even on maps that are LRM friendly. If you took your LRM deck on a drop with most good teams you'd find that most targets are dead before your LRMs arrive - because 1-3 people focusing good builds with good aim kill in 1-2 seconds. If not dead then they shoot, twist, get back in cover. They don't stare to keep locks.

So if you're far enough away that it's more than 1-2 seconds for your missiles to travel you're a waste of tonmage. Beyond which if you're not constantly exposing yourself to draw fire then you're leaving your teammates to draw all the enemy fire instead.

LRMs are flat out inferior. If they were not we would all use them. The "meta" is just the short term for "what works best, most efficiently and most consistently". That's why people use it. Maximum damage with precision for minimum exposure. It also takes into account the team performance - LRMs either require you to stay exposed for several seconds to hold your own locks or have a teammate constantly do so for you.

The more skilled the opponent the less useful your LRMs are. Direct fire works off your skill, not the enemy. Hence superior.

[Kali Rinpoche]

An effective missile boat can be very useful on certain maps. One LRM dude is not going to cost you a match. Lastly, ever think that new folks, that don't have tons of mechs, might only have a missile boat left to round out their DD? /sticks the dismount from the high horse.

[MovinTarget]

Kali Rinpoche, on 31 January 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

An effective missile boat can be very useful on certain maps. One LRM dude is not going to cost you a match. Lastly, ever think that new folks, that don't have tons of mechs, might only have a missile boat left to round out their DD? /sticks the dismount from the high horse.

Again this goes back to solo vs team play. Of course if one player on the team wants bting lrms it wouldn't terrible.... the diffetence is if you have a bunch of non-communicating solos all bringing lrms...

This is the value of dropping with a group, a little coordination goes a long way...

[CainenEX]

Bringing LRMs is very detrimental to your team. 1-2 mechs in a wave or 2 is kind of acceptable but should be limited to only using a medium/heavy to LRM with.

If you are not putting damage on a specific component then you are not efficiently killing mechs or knocking our their weapons.
LRMs are not efficient weapons, and require competence to use properly.
You also have to know how to properly build the mech. You'll need speed, armor, the LRMs and ammo, and good backup direct fire weapons. I see most players with a sub-par engine with no armor dying uselessly.
An enemy with fully operational mechs is deadly. Half operational, less deadly. A dead mech? Not a threat anymore to your team.

Source: A guy that's played CW, and competitive leagues in MWO.

[VorpalAnvil]

Astrokazy, on 30 January 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

ok so i'm a total spud tier 5 nobody and i don't mind losing all that much as long as i learn, what annoys me is that i invested in trebuchet which sort of lend themselves to lrm fire and have low hanging arms which make it difficult for cresting fire. The question is that surely the odd 50 ton with acouple of lrmswont bust the team up completely will it, and in a way aren't there always situations where you have to carry weaker players, it's kind of realistic as in all competitive sports some players will carry others, look at the NFL or NHL or whatever.
I get that lrms aren't the best there is also the issue that in order to progress in faction rank the pugs like me HAVE to play some FW just so we can earn the little acheivemnets and ranks and stuff like that, QP will be pretty tiring for most after a while and there isn't enough players to be exclusive at the top, seems to me more problems than answers.

Still i'll concentrate on direct fire and try to improve my ratios where i can, advice is good.

Try replacing those LRM's with SRM's and take it scouting. Also, If you happen to play with a coordinated unit in invasion then brawling is also a legit strat. The Treb isn't the best mech for sure, but using it in a more effective manner will teach you skills that you can apply to more effective mechs as you grind out those free bays and replace it with Griffins and MadDog SRM boats.

[justcallme A S H]

S0ulReapr, on 30 January 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

Yes, it is because I play mostly solo queue and my tier is at the mercy of my team mates. FYI, I see plenty of players from big name units who end up dropping in the "potato" tier and can't play worth a damn without the rest of their unit, or their drop commander telling them where to shoot.

You Tier is at the mercy of you well, or not, you play.

And the fact you are blaming others - I'm guessing that is, poorly so - T4. Am I warm?

Novakaine, on 30 January 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

Pffft, but here ya go.
Of course this is with inferior IS mechs.
Oh and no meta needed.

That's it? I pulled 1300dmg on a LRM boat 2nd match tonight just dicking around because I was bored.

Carl Vickers, on 30 January 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

It would be more useful to see who you were playing against, considering you only used 2 mechs and your team got the win, Im thinking you were up against potato's, so it looks like you were just in a spud on spud action.

Add to that, 1500 damage and only 3 kmdd's, not very effective fire. GG

Yep.

I mean I've done 1800+ in trial mechs. Nothing impressive.

[MischiefSC]

Novakaine LRMs well. If you get a chance to drop with him I suggest it - in FW or QP. Goes with the push, LURMs from the front , gets his own locks and if you call a target out in the open or send up a 'need help' he's fast to respond.

He also brings LRMs only when it's a viable choice when I've played with him in FW and I played a lot of matches with HHoD - a lot of good people there.

If everyone played LRMs like Nova I wouldn't be complaining in this thread.

Here's the thing though - I have no issue with people who are good at the game bringing LRMs on a drop in FW. On Conquest on Alpine for example they work well for supporting teammates in light v light fights on caps; usually the enemy light sees the missile warning and bugs out, which can be all the difference between you being caught out 2v3 and getting legged or killed while your teammates are at Sigma or Epsi while your team is on the hill at Theta.

It's not that nobody recognizes the value of LRMs, played by skilled players who can also do great with direct fire and are very effective and team-oriented. It's that such players are very few and very far between. People pugging in FW who bring LRMs are not those people. They're not even the shadow that those people cast. They are people who erroneously think pugging with an LRM mech is a good idea and that all those people (and teams) who roll them game after game, match after match.... somehow are not 'as good' at it as the lurmer is. That all those top tier, top performing players 'just don't understand how to use LRMs effectively'.

They do. They all do. Every one of them. Even all those 733t poptart metawhores who do things like win MWOWC and are very, very outspoken about how terrible LRMs are, without question they've all run LRMs and have done so repeatedly to test them every single time LRMs have gotten tweaked or adjusted to see exactly how LRMs play -

because all those players who focus on using whatever the 'current meta' is? Those top tier players? They focus on using what works best. Full stop. The day that becomes LRMs then they're going to be redefining how to boat LRMs, what armor to leave and what to strip to the single armor point for maximum possible effectiveness.

They do not however because LRMs are flat out inferior to direct fire in the vast majority of cases and unless you're an exceptional players playing in a team with a great command of where and how to use LRMs to get even close to comparable performance to direct fire then when you take LRMs (for reasons other than the obvious health/computer/all you have concerns) you're sandbagging your team and they likely will and are not out of place calling you out on it.

If you're new, say you're new. We love you and we want to help you get good, learn to play, have fun and join the community. If you've got issues that mean LRMs are about as good as you're going to be, no worries. Don't tell anyone but I have a NARC Raven and my 2N Griffin can have a NARC swapped on it in quick order and I'll happily shoulder up and do my part to carry harder to help you. Team together all day every day and your success is my success.

If you're just bad or even worse are bad and think you're good though? Please. Put your ego aside just for a second. Ask yourself why you don't want to actually learn to get better at the game. Why are you settling for just being a statistic in someone elses KMDD score? Why don't you want to excel? Why do you hold your fellow players in such contempt that you're not willing to put in such a minimal effort?

Don't answer me here. Not saying anyone owes me an answer to those questions and, not to be rude, but I don't ******* care what your answer is. Answer those for yourself as honestly as you can. Then put the LRMs away, gear up, team up, listen, pay attention and learn to carry. We want you here, we want you playing, we want to play with you - we just want you to carry your fair share and put in a reasonable effort.

[Fuerchtenichts]

Fellow IS PUGs,

don't get fooled by some veteran players and keep on bringing LRMs without organized tactical support to the front line. These guys spending hours of their life time writing posts with apparently detailed arguments and trying to irritate you are nothing but Clan bondsman working for the Clan watches.

YOU KNOW BEST!
#fakethedane

Edited by Fuerchtenichts, 01 February 2017 - 02:56 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Fuerchtenichts, on 01 February 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

Fellow IS PUGs,

don't get fooled by some veteran players and keep on bringing LRMs without organized tactical support to the front line. These guys spending hours of their life time writing posts with apparently detailed arguments and trying to irritate you are nothing but Clan bondsman working for the Clan watches.

YOU KNOW BEST!
#fakethedane

The Clan loyalist is just jealous. They gave up trying to get Clan pugs to quit bringing 4 LRM boats long ago.

Oh that moment when you Clan 8man drops against an IS 12man and you're on comms, talking through your strat, trying to be positive and you take stock of your pugs....

Only to find one is a lore hound who only takes stock builds and refuses to focus fire, one is an LRM Warhawk, one is an EBJ LRM60 and the last guy has lurms on his ACH and is piping up about how he stripped his armor to get 2 more tons of ammo so he'll be in the back supporting.

Edited by MischiefSC, 01 February 2017 - 12:08 PM.

[Arigase]

Dayum! What shoud i do with my archer now? That menas if i a solo droper archer i'm useless?

[MovinTarget]

Arigase, on 01 February 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

Dayum! What shoud i do with my archer now? That menas if i a solo droper archer i'm useless?

Can't brawl srms?

Srsly, if i had a dollar for every mech i own that i wouldn't take to fp... it'd prolly pay for my clan wave I pack...

[Fuerchtenichts]

Ha,

listen and learn. it is of major importance to secure having ENOUGH ammo on board. This is prio one for a real LRM Player. So it is better to sacrifice one or two of your LRM weapons to get more ammo in your mech. Who knows, probably the match goes into overtime. Your whole team will praise your foresight having another 1000 rockets in store.

#fakethedane

[MischiefSC]

Arigase, on 01 February 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

Dayum! What shoud i do with my archer now? That menas if i a solo droper archer i'm useless?

It means you're going to get carried and not carry in a 70 ton mech most matches, which isn't ideal. An SRM +ML build isn't bad. If you don't have any other mechs to bring then 2xLRM15As, 5 tons of ammo and all the MLs and DHS you can bring isn't terrible just play like those LRMs are an LB30X you want to use at 200-300m with the MLs, getting your own locks.

An Archer is not a great FW mech though. At that same tonnage you could bring a GHR or WHR or even TDR, all of which can be a great FW mech with a variety of builds.

[MischiefSC]

Fuerchtenichts, on 01 February 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

Ha,

listen and learn. it is of major importance to secure having ENOUGH ammo on board. This is prio one for a real LRM Player. So it is better to sacrifice one or two of your LRM weapons to get more ammo in your mech. Who knows, probably the match goes into overtime. Your whole team will praise your foresight having another 1000 rockets in store.

#fakethedane

I hope all your teammates bring decks with LRM Kodiaks and LRM Jenners. Remember- honorable Clanners face-tank so they can hold locks doesn't their teammates. Only dezgra surats twist away to hide their face from the enemy!

[MovinTarget]

MischiefSC, on 01 February 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

I hope all your teammates bring decks with LRM Kodiaks and LRM Jenners. Remember- honorable Clanners face-tank so they can hold locks doesn't their teammates. Only dezgra surats twist away to hide their face from the enemy!

Lol I am pretty sure he be trollin...

...at least, I really hope he is...

[nehebkau]

MovinTarget, on 01 February 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

Lol I am pretty sure he be trollin...

...at least, I really hope he is...

He was trolling

However, I have started to be hardcore in "hardcore mode" if you bring lrms... or worse utter the phrase "Hold locks" I am going to cast aspersions at your ability to play and suggest, forcefully, that you stay in QP until you develop your aiming and piloting skills so that you can use AC's, Energy weapons or SRMs. I will then utter a quip about riding on the coat-tails or your team-mates.

(this vitriol is cutesy of that LRM crab in the last match)

[Devrij]

I hear this all the time, but a lot of the wins against clans that I've seen have been because of good coordinated LRM spam. It's one of the few weapons that IS have that is more effective than the clan counterparts (ignoring weight ofc). Yes, it's stupid if you aren't going to be working with the rest of the team, but it is a great way to keep pop tarts and snipers behind cover, chip off armour and provide area denial. The big caveat is that they have to be used properly. Generally they are a bad idea for siege maps though. In normal game modes I have no issue with them.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Devrij, on 06 March 2017 - 06:35 AM, said:

I hear this all the time, but a lot of the wins against clans that I've seen have been because of good coordinated LRM spam. It's one of the few weapons that IS have that is more effective than the clan counterparts (ignoring weight ofc). Yes, it's stupid if you aren't going to be working with the rest of the team, but it is a great way to keep pop tarts and snipers behind cover, chip off armour and provide area denial. The big caveat is that they have to be used properly. Generally they are a bad idea for siege maps though. In normal game modes I have no issue with them.

Absolutely....the IS needs to continue to bring all the LRM boats it can to stem the Clan tide on those QP modes. As a Clan loyalist I hesitate to mention it (lest the IS decide to bring more of them), but I particularly fear those dreaded LRM Stalkers (the ones with all the LRM's and only 2 ml's) in conquest mode. I saw a few last night bravely plodding with their massive indirect fire abilities. Sure, I might have outmaneuvered one or two of them and cored them out from behind...and one I just decided I would face-hug as that 10 dmg he could hit me with up close wasn't a deterrent...but I am sure they otherwise obliterated my fellow Clanners from a safe distance and pulled their significant drop weight in getting cap's.

Obviously, coordination is important...however, lack of coordination isn't ever the LRM boats fault. It's the team's fault. If an IS pilot is failing to rain death on us despicable Clanners it because their teammates are letting them down by not holding locks. When they see a dakka KDK-3 or laser vomit Ebon shooting at them....do they bravely stare death in the face and laugh...holding their missle locks...no...they let the team down, by twisting away or backing down that hill and the rain of missles falls harmlessly. A good LRM-boat pilot makes sure to let his team know of this failure to work together, so it can be corrected. Teammates greatly appreciate this kind of instruction.

Again, I hate to help the enemy in any way...but I am big-hearted...

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 06 March 2017 - 09:15 AM.

[Devrij]

A bit tongue in cheek, but you're ignoring things like good light pilots with narc. On maps like polar highlands it is devastating to get narced against a team carrying lrms. The only protection is range.

That said, any decent team should realise they just need to push in to negate that LRM damage, so it's important to balance these things (I'm not recommending entire teams of LRM boats!)