258 replies to this topic

[Carl Vickers]

SHRedo, on 10 January 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

they are still the most effective way to make people cry, for all kinds of reasons

The least of which is the team crying when they constantly lose matches due to having too many lurm boats.

[The Basilisk]

IrvoDactyl, on 08 January 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

You do know that IS lrm's are preferred over Clan lrm's?

IS lrm's fire in clumps while Clan lrm's fire in a stream and easier to be shot down with ams.

And correct me if I'm wrong but the missile damage is exact the same on Clan and IS lrm's, so please elaborate how IS lrm's bring half the damage of Clan lrm's

Seriously ????
Ever noticed a Clan LRM launcher weighting half as much than an IS LRM launcher?
So...as with many Clanweapons...you simply pack more potential dmg for the same tonnage.
As an result you can put your LRM lauchers on a chassis where they actually make a bit of sense.
On highly mobile chassis with still enough tonnage for ammo.

[MovinTarget]

The Basilisk, on 11 January 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:

Seriously ????
Ever noticed a Clan LRM launcher weighting half as much than an IS LRM launcher?
So...as with many Clanweapons...you simply pack more potential dmg for the same tonnage.
As an result you can put your LRM lauchers on a chassis where they actually make a bit of sense.
On highly mobile chassis with still enough tonnage for ammo.

He's not disputing the weight of IS LRMs, but the *effect*... Clan lrms TRICKLE in, IS lrms SLAM their target and SHAKE the cockpit, making it hard to focus on what you are doing.


Also, potential =/= actual... Yes, clans can pack more weapons, but if you would study their weaknesses, they can be beaten.

Edited by MovinTarget, 11 January 2017 - 06:01 AM.

[Lily from animove]

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

Lily from animove, on 11 January 2017 - 06:29 AM, said:

I wish IS LRMs still shoot like that, now it looks all boring.

[multisoul]

lrms? reminds me to edit my deck and put back my 2 favorite lrm mechs
Recruits with lrms are the best. staying way back and just when there is finally a target they start moving somewhere instead of shooting
Recruits teaming up with lrms a cool as well, dont have R key and as soon as they see a friendly lrm boat shooting they hide waiting and thinking that in a few minutes the lrm boat will soften an easy kill for them

always comply with radar deprivation, ecm cover and most important of all: hug a wall

Edited by multisoul, 12 January 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[DavidStarr]

So what exactly is the problem with LRMs? Is it that you're not sharing armor with the team and help the enemy team focus your teammates better?
Those are definitely valid concerns, but then, how come I don't feel that I'm handicapping my team when I bring LRMs to regular QP? These concerns apply there as well, but I don't feel as if I hinder my team by bringing my team. On the contrary, even.

Granted, nowadays I prefer "combat" LRM mechs that have decently strong backup weapons and actively participate in the battle, staying 300-600 m from the enemy, using the backup weapons all the time and taking hits regularly (e. g. LRM30 + 4xML Tempest; LRM40 + 2xUAC/2 EBJ). But I also blow dust off my LRM60 CPLT-C4 with just a TAG, and have loads of fun killing enemy mechs and winning.

I think only one kind of LRM mechs really deserve to be frowned upon: assaults. Moreover, it is my impression that LRM mechs contribute more the lighter they are. I do about the same damage (400-500 per game) with a 50 ton Hunchback-4J as with 70 ton Tempest.

Edited by DavidStarr, 13 January 2017 - 04:59 AM.

[Carl Vickers]

Because in QP it is every man for himself. Sure some QP teams gel really well and play like a team but for the most part it is the exact opposite play style required for FW.

When you play with unit members you get to know each other strengths and weaknesses and compensate, this come from dropping with the same people over and over again. In QP you dont really get the time to get to know people and truth be told most wouldnt even care to know their team mates in QP.

In a domination today on Polar, 8 players on the blue side sat back 1 square from the damnation circle and when called out, the cries of Ive got lurms came back, keep in mind one huggin went derping off to the back left hand corner of the map at the start and another medium went off to the right for some reason to leave just 2 of us holding the circle for the rest of the team.

On FP with another 11 unit members behind you, you all would have gone to the damnation circle and either poked and pushed or just plain pushed. 12 mechs pushing and cresting is a pretty fearsome sight, something you rarely see in QP I might add.

[Albino Boo]

DavidStarr, on 13 January 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

So what exactly is the problem with LRMs? Is it that you're not sharing armor with the team and help the enemy team focus your teammates better?
Those are definitely valid concerns, but then, how come I don't feel that I'm handicapping my team when I bring LRMs to regular QP? These concerns apply there as well, but I don't feel as if I hinder my team by bringing my team. On the contrary, even.

Granted, nowadays I prefer "combat" LRM mechs that have decently strong backup weapons and actively participate in the battle, staying 300-600 m from the enemy, using the backup weapons all the time and taking hits regularly (e. g. LRM30 + 4xML Tempest; LRM40 + 2xUAC/2 EBJ). But I also blow dust off my LRM60 CPLT-C4 with just a TAG, and have loads of fun killing enemy mechs and winning.

I think only one kind of LRM mechs really deserve to be frowned upon: assaults. Moreover, it is my impression that LRM mechs contribute more the lighter they are. I do about the same damage (400-500 per game) with a 50 ton Hunchback-4J as with 70 ton Tempest.

1. Direct fire weapons hit one section of armour killing the target mech more quickly than lrms, which spread damage across the target mech. Doing 40 damage to one section is better than doing 40 damage to 5 sections.

2. You are playing tier 4 QP you aren't playing against tier 1 players. As you, hopefully, progress lrms will be less and less effective because players know how to deal with lrm boats.

Edited by Albino Boo, 13 January 2017 - 05:37 AM.

[Stormie]

DavidStarr, on 13 January 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

So what exactly is the problem with LRMs? Is it that you're not sharing armor with the team and help the enemy team focus your teammates better?
Those are definitely valid concerns, but then, how come I don't feel that I'm handicapping my team when I bring LRMs to regular QP? These concerns apply there as well, but I don't feel as if I hinder my team by bringing my team. On the contrary, even.

Granted, nowadays I prefer "combat" LRM mechs that have decently strong backup weapons and actively participate in the battle, staying 300-600 m from the enemy, using the backup weapons all the time and taking hits regularly (e. g. LRM30 + 4xML Tempest; LRM40 + 2xUAC/2 EBJ). But I also blow dust off my LRM60 CPLT-C4 with just a TAG, and have loads of fun killing enemy mechs and winning.

I think only one kind of LRM mechs really deserve to be frowned upon: assaults. Moreover, it is my impression that LRM mechs contribute more the lighter they are. I do about the same damage (400-500 per game) with a 50 ton Hunchback-4J as with 70 ton Tempest.

As albino said. LRM damage is hugely inefficient. To example this for you pick your favourite LRM mech take it to training grounds, find and kill the atlas. Time how long it takes from first volley till the kill. Then repeat with a direct fire build. Spoiler, the direct fire build will be Much faster as explained above, and the LRM mech will do tonnes more damage.
Its the same argument for why you would usually want to take regular artemis SRMs instead of streaks.

[Lily from animove]

Lady Alexandra Cousland, on 11 January 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

I wish IS LRMs still shoot like that, now it looks all boring.

rue, they look majestic in that way, now they are just like fat thrown boulders.

[Dungeon Keeper]

It's so fun to read posts about effective lurms under certain conditions. People keep lying to themselves instead of accepting harsh truth. Remember situation when you position yourself in assault mech wrong and got lurmed for 30 seconds from half of enemy team losing all your armor and getting to cover at last second? Lots of pain, right? On other hand in the same situation under direct fire weapons you will not feel all that pain, just be dead after 5 seconds.

[MovinTarget]

Dungeon Keeper, on 13 January 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

It's so fun to read posts about effective lurms under certain conditions. People keep lying to themselves instead of accepting harsh truth. Remember situation when you position yourself in assault mech wrong and got lurmed for 30 seconds from half of enemy team losing all your armor and getting to cover at last second? Lots of pain, right? On other hand in the same situation under direct fire weapons you will not feel all that pain, just be dead after 5 seconds.

I'mma start a new thread:

"CLAMS STOP BRINGING SO MANY LAZORS TO FP!"

[TwoPair]

LRMS don't get a bad rep because their bad weapons. They get a Bad rep because New Players who really don't understand what their doing tend to gravitate towards them. This in turn is bad because LRM's are a situational weapon system.

I play with LRM's on many of my mechs including two of my assaults. Why? because only so many mechs can close and trade/share armor at a time. That is the great advantage of LRM's. When MovinTarget is in front of me blocking my line of fire to dungeon keeper, I can still bring my lrm 15 to bear, while I move to a better engagement angle.

Skilled players with LRM's can be terrifying. try a Victor with a Narc and 2 LRM 10's or an LRM 15 as part of its weapons load out. It can jump use whatever its primary set of weapons is (AC or Lasers or ppc) Narc its target accepting the initial trade in Armor. drop back down behind a hill or friendly that's in the way and dish out an additional couple of volleys of LRM's before you need to expose itself for another trade. Engagement profile for the build is 200 m to 400 m and it is not reliant on a spotter.


Now I wouldn't put LRM's on an Atlas, but then unlike many victors the atlas is a dedicated brawling mech meant to get into the other person's face..


In short like any weapon it fails in the hands of those who don't understand how to use it effectively.

[MischiefSC]

No, every single competitive tier player will agree LRMs are bad. There are no "good players" who say LRMs are good. There are some great players who can make them work anyway but you won't find a top performer who doesn't say LRMs are bad.

There's a few reasons. Primary is that your own accuracy vs splattered LRM tracking accuracy is huge. Both in context of you learning to aim direct fire vs you learning to get a lock. Playing LRMs makes you bad by keeping you from learning/practicing to aim.

LRMs have a lot of counters. ECM, AMS, breaking LoS. As such your ability to use LRMs is effective proportional to the skill of your opponent. LPLs are hitscan - if I can see them.and they're in range I can do precise damage based on my aim and skill, regardless of theirs.

Beyond which you have issues with how people tend to play them - hide in the back, etc.

However, be absolutely clear on this -

LRMs are inferior to direct fire weapons. Full stop. If you learn to be good at the game and understand why the meta is the meta and then learn to work around the problems with LRMs you'll get performance out of them.

However especially in FW they tend to perform poorly for your team. FW works best on precision and coordination - if you've got direct fire your damage will be more focused and immediate and you'll be doing it at the same time to the same guy as your teammates. LRMs are slow and scattered.

You can suppress someone better by doing 40-50 pts to his CT rather than getting him to back up into cover due to warning indicator and taking no damage as the missiles hit a wall 4 seconds later.

There will always be people championing bad ideas and saying "it's great if you use it right". Ignore them.

When someone runs LRMs consistently to a victory in RHoD or MRBC Division A then great. Take them seriously. When a team runs LRMs and outperforms EVIL, KCom and any of the top 5 best W/L teams in FW, great. We can re-evaluate.

However that's never ever happened. Someone might get a lucky match once in a blue moon but no serious comp players or teams have ever run LRMs to success. There have been attempts and it's been tested repeatedly but the results are always consistent -

LRMs are bad, using them teaches you bad habits and prevents you learning good ones. Load direct fire, practice and git gud.

[MovinTarget]

TwoPair, on 13 January 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

When MovinTarget is in front of me blocking my line of fire to dungeon keeper...

I WAS SHECURING TEH KILL!!!!

[BLOOD WOLF]

Keep bringing those lurmboats. I don't know how many I have cored out in the back

[Monkey Lover]

TwoPair, on 13 January 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

LRMS don't get a bad rep because their bad weapons. They get a Bad rep because New Players who really don't understand what their doing tend to gravitate towards them. This in turn is bad because LRM's are a situational weapon system.

I play with LRM's on many of my mechs including two of my assaults. Why? because only so many mechs can close and trade/share armor at a time. That is the great advantage of LRM's. When MovinTarget is in front of me blocking my line of fire to dungeon keeper, I can still bring my lrm 15 to bear, while I move to a better engagement angle.

Skilled players with LRM's can be terrifying. try a Victor with a Narc and 2 LRM 10's or an LRM 15 as part of its weapons load out. It can jump use whatever its primary set of weapons is (AC or Lasers or ppc) Narc its target accepting the initial trade in Armor. drop back down behind a hill or friendly that's in the way and dish out an additional couple of volleys of LRM's before you need to expose itself for another trade. Engagement profile for the build is 200 m to 400 m and it is not reliant on a spotter.


Now I wouldn't put LRM's on an Atlas, but then unlike many victors the atlas is a dedicated brawling mech meant to get into the other person's face..


In short like any weapon it fails in the hands of those who don't understand how to use it effectively.

Skilled lrm pilot is a better direct fire pilot other the netspeeds/health. Anyone taking lrms into battle is hurting thier team. Same as taking subpar mechs or mechs without skill points.

I can say I have done all 3 but I don't play like it's not true.

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

MovinTarget, on 13 January 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

I WAS SHECURING TEH KILL!!!!

And that's why lurms help you off your greed of blood and steel.

[DavidStarr]

Albino Boo, on 13 January 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:

1. Direct fire weapons hit one section of armour killing the target mech more quickly than lrms, which spread damage across the target mech. Doing 40 damage to one section is better than doing 40 damage to 5 sections.

Yet I get more kills in CPLT-C4 than most other mechs (not all, but most). Quite possibly more component destructions as well.

Albino Boo, on 13 January 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:

because players know how to deal with lrm boats.

Which is how, exactly? No matter what, someone of the 12 players will peek out of cover for long enough, and get spotted, and get lurmed. Not to mention that with my more recent approach to LRMing I will be spotting and TAGging him myself.