120 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Juodas Varnas, on 12 January 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Which is exactly why we need the Quadrupeds. Say what you will about how absolutely terrible they'd be in-game, at least they'd add some variety to the game

Depends, if some of the quads support side stepping it could be interesting, I would support quads in this game before I support tanks.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 January 2017 - 12:50 PM.

[RestosIII]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 January 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

Depends, if some of the quads support side stepping it could be interesting, I would support quads in this game before I support tanks.

Give a Demolisher legs, and we'll have the best of both worlds.

[Juodas Varnas]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 January 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

Depends, if some of the quads support side stepping it could be interesting, I would support quads in this game before I support tanks.

I think ALL of them should support side-stepping.

[FupDup]

I just want you to remember that quads have far fewer critical slots for building than bipedal mechs since your arms are replaced with two legs. Arms can have up to 10 crits each (minimum of 8), while legs have only 2 crits each. You lose between 12 to 16 critical slots as a quadruped.

This mostly hurts on the IS side with their very bulky DHS, Endo, and FF.

Edited by FupDup, 12 January 2017 - 12:58 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 January 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

Depends, if some of the quads support side stepping it could be interesting, I would support quads in this game before I support tanks.

and I would love to have both..... I'd totally port my WoTs into MWO, lol.... (at least I'd love to port their aiming and damage mechanics...)

[Kanil]

Bombast, on 12 January 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

Hey, we may be driving it, but you're the one that has to look at it. So I guess the jokes still on you.

I get to drill it with gauss rifles though. That's it's punishment for being ugly. *pew!*

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 12 January 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

I just want you to remember that quads have far fewer critical slots for building than bipedal mechs since your arms are replaced with two legs. Arms can have up to 10 crits each (minimum of 8), while legs have only 2 crits each.

This mostly hurts on the IS side with their very bulky DHS, Endo, and FF.

was always silly that they didn't have turrets, IMO. But yup, you lose 12-ish crits..... be interesting to see how the lost leg mechanic worked for speed and mobility loss. I'd say losing an ST would totally immobilize the mech, since the Legs are both attached to the STs.

On the other hand, for instance, HBS is using a stability mechanic for their Battletech Game... seeing something like that, and for knockdowns added here..I'd see quads having massive stability.

Also we really need to add Crouch functionality for ALL mechs.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

From Zuccbook

[Bombast]

FupDup, on 12 January 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

I just want you to remember that quads have far fewer critical slots for building than bipedal mechs since your arms are replaced with two legs. Arms can have up to 10 crits each (minimum of 8), while legs have only 2 crits each.

This mostly hurts on the IS side with their very bulky DHS, Endo, and FF.

Yah... Quads would be automatic crap in this game, really, though an interesting addition.

To make quads actually viable, PGI would have to give them special construction rules. And I mean special - Clan Endo/Ferro on IS mechs special. And even then it's rough.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Damn, it really does feel like an AH from this angle especially with how the Left Arm is modeled

[Requiemking]

Kanil, on 12 January 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

I get to drill it with gauss rifles though. That's it's punishment for being ugly. *pew!*

No no no, you need to torture it for that sin. I personally recommend the quad AC2 Rifleman as the implement of choice.

[FupDup]

Bombast, on 12 January 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

Yah... Quads would be automatic crap in this game, really, though an interesting addition.

To make quads actually viable, PGI would have to give them special construction rules. And I mean special - Clan Endo/Ferro on IS mechs special. And even then it's rough.

PGI won't give them special rules.

Hypothetically, though, I'd rather have something like more critslots in the torso sections than IS quads with Clan tech.

[Juodas Varnas]

Bombast, on 12 January 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

Yah... Quads would be automatic crap in this game, really, though an interesting addition.

To make quads actually viable, PGI would have to give them special construction rules. And I mean special - Clan Endo/Ferro on IS mechs special. And even then it's rough.

You're basically implying that ALL IS mechs need both FF and ENDO to be functional, which they don't.
Like, almost none of my mechs have both FF and ENDO (the only ones, i can think of would be my Jenner and Locust), and just adding Endosteel wouldn't limit the loadouts of mostly energy/missile mechs too much (problem could come with DHS taking up too much space, but most Quads have large engines, so you could keep the DHS in there )

Still, they might be bad, but i really don't think they'd need special construction rules to be viable.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 12 January 2017 - 01:03 PM.

[FupDup]

Juodas Varnas, on 12 January 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

You're basically implying that ALL IS mechs need both FF and ENDO to be functional, which they don't.
Like, almost none of my mechs have both FF and ENDO (the only ones, i can think of would be my Jenner and Locust), and just adding Endosteel wouldn't limit the loadouts of mostly energy/missile mechs (problem could come with DHS taking up too much space, but most Quads have large engines, so you could keep the DHS in there )
Still, they might be bad, but i really don't think they'd need special construction rules to be viable.

They do at least need Endo all the time outside of very high-end assault mechs (because they need slots more than tonnage).

The sacrifice of replacing two arms with two legs is about the same as taking an IS mech with Endo and adding FF on top of it. It's pretty hard to fit stuff on an IS mech with Endo + FF in most non-light mech cases, right? That's what every quadruped is like.

Edited by FupDup, 12 January 2017 - 01:04 PM.

[Juodas Varnas]

FupDup, on 12 January 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

They do at least need Endo all the time outside of very high-end assault mechs (because they need slots more than tonnage).

The sacrifice of replacing two arms with two legs is about the same as taking an IS mech with Endo and adding FF on top of it. It's pretty hard to fit stuff on an IS mech with Endo + FF in most cases, right? That's what every quadruped is like.

Yeah, i know that.
But it mostly limits large ballistics, in my opinion. Something most quadrupeds don't really use.
I mean, take a Scorpion, right?
What loadout would be most popular on it? 2xPPCs/ERPPCs with the largest engine possible and all the DHS you can fit into it.
I don't think the crit-slots would matter much in that case.

However, imagine if Standard armor/structure actually had benefits to having, like extra % armor or structure, maybe then it could be an actual trade-off, with some people sacrificing the extra few tons, to use Standard Structure/Armor for more durability.

[Bombast]

Juodas Varnas, on 12 January 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

You're basically implying that ALL IS mechs need both FF and ENDO to be functional, which they don't.
Like, almost none of my mechs have both FF and ENDO (the only ones, i can think of would be my Jenner and Locust), and just adding Endosteel wouldn't limit the loadouts of mostly energy/missile mechs too much (problem could come with DHS taking up too much space, but most Quads have large engines, so you could keep the DHS in there )

Still, they might be bad, but i really don't think they'd need special construction rules to be viable.

A quad loses 12 to 16 crits before construction even begins. This is on top of MWOs Tech 2 time frame, which means pretty much everything IS side, outside of assault mechs, lose 14 crits to Endo (Because lets be honest, it's easier to list the mechs where it's sane to drop Endo then it is to list the ones were it's basically mandatory).

And lets remember - At best, a quad only has 35 crits. And that's before XLs.

Though engines are interesting. Maybe give quads a higher engine cap? 1.5 instead of 1.2, and so on?

[FupDup]

Juodas Varnas, on 12 January 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

Yeah, i know that.
But it mostly limits large ballistics, in my opinion. Something most quadrupeds don't really use.
I mean, take a Scorpion, right?
What loadout would be most popular on it? 2xPPCs/ERPPCs with the largest engine possible and all the DHS you can fit into it.
I don't think the crit-slots would matter much in that case.

However, imagine if Standard armor/structure actually had benefits to having, like extra % armor or structure, maybe then it could be an actual trade-off, with some people sacrificing the extra few tons, to use Standard Structure/Armor for more durability.

I don't have an exact build on-hand to figure out the exact numbers, but in general IS DHS munch up critslots like nobody's business. Also keep in mind that your "arms" can't fit DHS. Only your left and right torso can, besides the engine itself.

Adding tradeoffs to STD Equipment is cool, but that also benefits bipedal mechs that choose to build that way.

The quads are gonna need some kind of special sauce to give them a leg up (pun not intended).


I'm gonna try to figure out the exact way to build that Scorpion. Will report back with results...

Edited by FupDup, 12 January 2017 - 01:14 PM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Bombast, on 12 January 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

Though engines are interesting. Maybe give quads a higher engine cap? 1.5 instead of 1.2, and so on?

Well, even with the 1.2 modifier, Scorpion would have the maximum engine cap for 400

It comes with a 330 stock.

FupDup, on 12 January 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Adding tradeoffs to STD Equipment is cool, but that also benefits bipedal mechs that choose to build that way.

And that's a bad thing?
If anything, we need to make STD equipment better to reduce the whole nonsense of OBLIGATORY MECH TAXES that are DHS and endo.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 12 January 2017 - 01:14 PM.

[FupDup]

Juodas Varnas, on 12 January 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

And that's a bad thing?
If anything, we need to make STD equipment better to reduce the whole nonsense of OBLIGATORY MECH TAXES that are DHS and endo.

It's not a bad thing in general, but it means that your idea won't fix Quadruped vs. Biped balance. It should still happen, but Quads still need some special treatment that only they benefit from.

Anyways, I built your 2 PPC Scorpion in SSW. You can't exploit the high engine cap here, I tried an XL385 but couldn't even fit the second PPC. I had to use an XL330 with Endo, 2 PPCs, and 16 DHS. Every critslot is used up. Armor is 1 point short of max. All in all it's a very tight fit.

Edited by FupDup, 12 January 2017 - 01:24 PM.

[Juodas Varnas]

FupDup, on 12 January 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

It's not a bad thing in general, but it means that your idea won't fix Quadruped vs. Biped balance.

I'm of the idea that "not everything has to be balanced".
I'm more than fine with using an inferior option (wouldn't be playing IS-only otherwise)

FupDup, on 12 January 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

I had to use an XL330 with Endo, 2 PPCs, and 16 DHS. Every critslot is used up. Armor is 1 point short of max.

Doesn't sound that bad. 105kph 55 tonner with 2xPPCs and enough DHS to run them cool enough.
Definitely seems an improvement over my 2xPPC Vindicator 1R (with which i have gotten over 1k damage on more than one occasion, i might add)
Can't actually prove the 1k damage in the vindicator part, right now, because the screencaps are in my other PC.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 12 January 2017 - 01:24 PM.