92 replies to this topic

[Albino Boo]

mycroft000, on 13 January 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

Nova Prime- 12ERSL w/ hand and lower arm actuators, active probe in head, tc mk1 center torso, the rest is heat sinks. Will add smurfy build when I get home.

This is a build that I have done 800-1500 damage in on a semi regular basis.

Edited to add the Smufy link:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0f1048d68c8f804

Also this is the build I used to hit 3rd place in the Nova queue for the medium mech event.

I've run this build and it works as best a close support brawler, with the main body. Its hot and short ranged but min/maxing something means you chose the thing that you want to be good at.

Tesunie, on 18 January 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

snip

The stock build of HBK IIC is 2 cUAC20 + c2ERML. A new player will blow themselves up on that stock mech more often than Mycroft's Nova build. The meta 6 spl ACH isnt much better and the trial ACH 6ersl you can only get about 2 1/2 alphas out it. Its a champion mech, not a trail or stock mech and that should mean its at least optimised.

Edited by Albino Boo, 18 January 2017 - 02:39 PM.

[Tesunie]

mycroft000, on 18 January 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

I completely understand where you're coming from, but when I did start playing last year, and had no clue what Ghost Heat was, the Nova was one of my earliest top performing mechs. And I'll say I absolutely am willing to swallow my pride, that's why I use ERSL instead of pulse lasers. I ran the thing with pulse lasers for months before one of my unit mates asked me why I didn't try ERSLs and when I did that, my damage output per match skyrocketed.

And you mention torso twisting too. I'll be honest, when I'm piloting my Nova, I don't twist much. I would rather my CT be targeted than spread damage to my arms. That tactic has allowed me to take down enemies far beyond what I should be able to face tank against(it does frequently get me killed, but rarely without incapacitating or killing my target).

I can also say every member of my unit who's adopted my build has been surprised at its effectiveness even when they have not so much as unlocked any basic skills.

I have also built and tested some of the most odd builds you can imagine just because I do consider myself a Nova pilot before anything else in this game and want to know all of the various builds I can be effective in, those builds include things like 5MG and 6ERSL, or 5MG and a UAC20, and other equally ridiculous builds.

I wish to start by saying... I think I miss worded something along the way and something came out with a but more rudeness than I intended. (As in, I intended no rudeness at all.) You seemed to have taken it the right way though, and don't seem upset at least.

My concern as far as new players is that the tend to alpha everything, or think that chain fire is a good thing (not saying that each isn't good in it's own place, of course). They also tend to stare opponents down a lot, trying to keep their reticles on the target for the whole fight. They might not even twist their torso at all, or will twist and suddenly be confused as to why "forward" isn't forward anymore. Silly things like that is what they tend to do, not because "they are stupid", but because they are learning and figuring things out. We can't help them with the great mech builds, as that will only get them so far and most work only with good skills. However, we can give them mech builds that can help ease their entrance into MW:O, and keep them easy to use. The easier they are to use, the less they have to work on learning at a given time.

Now, I've been helping a lot of new players, so I am just trying to relay some of their frustrations here with the new Champion proposals (wish I could keep track of all the threads, but I'm only been able to be in the ones I submitted builds for). Considering what happened on the last round of the Champion creation threads... I can say I'm more impressed with this round so far.


As I stated before, your build looks strong. It looks like it's a real killer at close range. If I could couch a new player as they are learning, and brawling was their thing and they wanted to play a Nova, I probably would recommend your build right away. But this is with me personally guiding them and informing them how best to use that build, what not to do with it, and guiding them through maps to get into a brawl in one piece (hopefully).

However, as I can't do that with every player, and most new players will be in this game alone with no one to tell them the warnings and how things work... I'd personally avoid suggesting a build like yours to them. This is for several reasons (and I'll say them again encase if I didn't before hand, once again, no insult intended):
- It has ghost heat, and new players will be more prone to panic and will alpha the weapons. Either as a panic, or intentionally without realizing it's going to kill them.
- New players also don't tend to lock as much, so they wont know where to hit (if they can even keep the lasers on target for their full duration, as short as the ERSLs may be).
- The final reason (that I can think of right now at least), is it's very limited engagement range. ERSLs are very short ranged. New players and PUGs in general tend to play at a mid range, and are usually very afraid to commit and get close. For most of their matches at their start, they would probably feel frustrated because "they shoot and don't seem to be doing much damage", in part because they probably are trying to snipe at long range with their lasers (I've seen it happen before), or complain that they die before they can even get into range of their weapons (once they understand what their ranges are).


I will mention again, I do like your build and I have a Nova with a very similar build on it myself. It does work very well, but I'm just concerned about how it would perform in the hands of a new player. Back when Stock mechs were the trials, I recall what new players thought about the 12 ERML Nova. (I know, more heat, different quirks, etc.) They were calling it trash because they shot (alphaed) once with it and died instantly...

Spoiler

As much as I like debating this kind of stuff, I do believe this is not the thread for it. Or... maybe it is? If you wish to continue, we may want to go to PMs or create another thread for this, or we can continue here if you wish. But suffice it to say, I'm not "not liking" your build because "it's bad". I actually do like your build, just not for new players in my opinion is all.

[Tesunie]

Albino Boo, on 18 January 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

The stock build of HBK IIC is 2 cUAC20 + c2ERML. A new player will blow themselves up on that stock mech more often than Mycroft's Nova build. The meta 6 spl ACH isnt much better and the trial ACH 6ersl you can only get about 2 1/2 alphas out it. Its a champion mech, not a trail or stock mech and that should mean its at least optimised.

We aren't talking about stock mech builds. Trial mechs are no longer stock mech configurations. Trial mechs are now pulled from the Champion line of mechs, most of which was now designed by the community and based upon old metas of times gone by. Now, most of those champion/trial mech builds are "terribad" (someone's actual quote) now that those Metas are no longer prevalent.

To be honest, most of the Champion builds we currently have are not and were not created and voted for with the intention of being "trial mechs". Everyone seemed (okay, not everyone exactly) to vote on the "most meta and optimized" mech builds for that chassis.

This voting for "the meta and optimized" champion mechs has now lead us to trial mechs that go into rotate that certainly are not new player friendly at all. Such as the SPL or ERSL Arctic Cheetah, or the triple LPL Crab with an XL engine in it and dead "shield" arm. Though each are great builds on their own, many new players get frustrated by those mechs, because they are not new player friendly. They are great mechs for people who have developed at least some skill in the game.

What is wrong with those builds?

Spoiler

- Cheetah is too close range and too hot to start with. A new player may have actually benefited more from a double ERLL with ECM Cheetah, or maybe even a Cheetah with a single ERLL and 3-4 ERSLs (to take a guess). Even a Cheetah with 3 ERSLs and 2 ERMLs on the shoulders with ECM might be a better choice. I've started new players off with 2 ERLLs personally, as they can do a bit of hiding and shooting at any range, while being able to run away if people get too close. It also runs fairly cool.
- The Crab has large side torsos. Not so large as to make them always pop first, but large enough that they can easily be targeted by someone with some experience, or even by LRMs or any shot being fired on it's side profile. With an XL engine to "optimize" it, it leads many players to a quick death. (I'm sorry new players, if I see a Crab 27(C), I'm going to take your side torso, which you aren't even twisting away from me.) The Crab is forgiving enough on it's hit boxes that it can slide damage to a side torso, with very minimal or even no twist at all. Combine with a Std engine, and it would survive better. The second problem with it was, all it's weapons where basically one sided on it. If I know this, I can easily take out the weapon armor, and remove 2/3rds of it's firepower. That is, if I don't take it's side torso first instead.

Neither of those builds seemed to have been designed with new players in mind. Each are great builds in their own rights and probably very powerful in a skilled pilot's control. In the hands of a new player, I can think of some builds that may have been a better choice and probably more beneficial, even if it isn't "fully" optimized.

[Mycroft000]

Tesunie, on 18 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

I wish to start by saying... I think I miss worded something along the way and something came out with a but more rudeness than I intended. (As in, I intended no rudeness at all.) You seemed to have taken it the right way though, and don't seem upset at least.

I didn't get any rudeness from it at all, so no worries.

Tesunie, on 18 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

My concern as far as new players is that the tend to alpha everything, or think that chain fire is a good thing (not saying that each isn't good in it's own place, of course). They also tend to stare opponents down a lot, trying to keep their reticles on the target for the whole fight. They might not even twist their torso at all, or will twist and suddenly be confused as to why "forward" isn't forward anymore. Silly things like that is what they tend to do, not because "they are stupid", but because they are learning and figuring things out. We can't help them with the great mech builds, as that will only get them so far and most work only with good skills. However, we can give them mech builds that can help ease their entrance into MW:O, and keep them easy to use. The easier they are to use, the less they have to work on learning at a given time.

My "new player" experience is definitely augmented by the fact that I've played Mechwarrior and Battletech for nearly decades. And as I said I genuinely think that this build benefits from less torso twisting than is typical for top meta builds.

Tesunie, on 18 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

Now, I've been helping a lot of new players, so I am just trying to relay some of their frustrations here with the new Champion proposals (wish I could keep track of all the threads, but I'm only been able to be in the ones I submitted builds for). Considering what happened on the last round of the Champion creation threads... I can say I'm more impressed with this round so far.

Our unit likes bringing in newer players as well as veterans so I know how it is when giving helpful feedback to someone who's new.

Tesunie, on 18 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

As I stated before, your build looks strong. It looks like it's a real killer at close range. If I could couch a new player as they are learning, and brawling was their thing and they wanted to play a Nova, I probably would recommend your build right away. But this is with me personally guiding them and informing them how best to use that build, what not to do with it, and guiding them through maps to get into a brawl in one piece (hopefully).

I still think this is a solid build for someone who isn't very experienced; the Nova frequently gets less attention on the battlefield than other mechs, so as long as they're staying close to their team then they can close distances and start heaping out damage quickly; if they don't stick close and do what I did early on, sneaking around the map and going for rear armor, then they can start securing kills FAST because of the ability of this mech to do the Right Left Right punching with the small lasers at close range; one concession I will make is that if they shoot from longer ranges and don't realize where the max range of the small lasers is, they can think they're doing damage and not actually inflicting much if any.

Tesunie, on 18 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

However, as I can't do that with every player, and most new players will be in this game alone with no one to tell them the warnings and how things work... I'd personally avoid suggesting a build like yours to them. This is for several reasons (and I'll say them again encase if I didn't before hand, once again, no insult intended):
- It has ghost heat, and new players will be more prone to panic and will alpha the weapons. Either as a panic, or intentionally without realizing it's going to kill them.

Ghost heat is a problem but they should(as I did) learn relatively quickly not to fire both arms at once.

Tesunie, on 18 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

- New players also don't tend to lock as much, so they wont know where to hit (if they can even keep the lasers on target for their full duration, as short as the ERSLs may be).

Fortunately the burn time on the ERSL is shorter than virtually any other weapon they're going to use successfully, meaning that what time they do get on target is going to inflict more than any other lasers will.

Tesunie, on 18 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

- The final reason (that I can think of right now at least), is it's very limited engagement range. ERSLs are very short ranged. New players and PUGs in general tend to play at a mid range, and are usually very afraid to commit and get close. For most of their matches at their start, they would probably feel frustrated because "they shoot and don't seem to be doing much damage", in part because they probably are trying to snipe at long range with their lasers (I've seen it happen before), or complain that they die before they can even get into range of their weapons (once they understand what their ranges are).

While the range for the ERSL is short, it's not as short as the SPL builds many others seem to want to suggest

Tesunie, on 18 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

I will mention again, I do like your build and I have a Nova with a very similar build on it myself. It does work very well, but I'm just concerned about how it would perform in the hands of a new player. Back when Stock mechs were the trials, I recall what new players thought about the 12 ERML Nova. (I know, more heat, different quirks, etc.) They were calling it trash because they shot (alphaed) once with it and died instantly...

Yeah the stock Nova Prime does require an extreme level of talent at positioning, staying on target, heat management, and more. This build lessens the impact of much of those requirements while still being deadly when they do get to engage.

Tesunie, on 18 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

As much as I like debating this kind of stuff, I do believe this is not the thread for it. Or... maybe it is? If you wish to continue, we may want to go to PMs or create another thread for this, or we can continue here if you wish. But suffice it to say, I'm not "not liking" your build because "it's bad". I actually do like your build, just not for new players in my opinion is all.

I actually think this is the perfect thread for this debate since it is the exact purpose of the call for builds. I'm definitely a proponent of my build but if the arguments against it sway the designers then I'd rather the debates be where they can find them.

[Shuruga]

Here is my suggestion for a Nova-S (C) build:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8c422922641b035

Since it is still an agile mech with Jump Jets, this is designed as a pure crit seeker. It serves well, if operating in a team together with a heavy or assault mech.

It comes with 4 MGs, 6 SPLas, Active Probe and Targeting Computer Mk I. It also has 4 additional DHS to keep firing almost continuously. For new players, it should serve well as entry level face hugging (or ankle-biting hehe) equipment.

[Mycroft000]

Larsh, on 13 January 2017 - 07:23 PM, said:

Let's call this one a bit....unique. It's an iron dome AMS mixed with some medium laser vomit.

6 Medium Laser + 3 AMS

Smurfy: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...97728cffbe1e75f

So I'm currently testing this build, and even mastered out with AMS Range and Overload modules, this build doesn't take out enough missiles to truly assist in that regard, and it runs too hot to effectively use the 6 medium lasers. Do you envision it set up with all of the lasers on one weapon group or each arm as its own group? As it stands(without any laser cooldown module, I get 3 alphas before shutting down, and that's with it mastered out(meaning all heat efficiencies have been unlocked).

I could see a potential argument for running it with 8 or 10 ERSL(untested yet, so I'd need to put that through the ringer before I could endorse it).

[Tesunie]

mycroft000, on 23 January 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:

So I'm currently testing this build, and even mastered out with AMS Range and Overload modules, this build doesn't take out enough missiles to truly assist in that regard, and it runs too hot to effectively use the 6 medium lasers.

I would also note as far as the video goes... That is not a new pilot to MW:O. They back up and poke, they jump over things and shoot while in the air. They use terrain and space their shooting to stay cool (which is why they poke). They appear to be rather well skilled, in comparison to what I'd expect from a new player.

I think the build has merit as a new player build, but I have to agree with what you say. Even in the video it ran rather hot. (But then again, we can only do so much.) That was mitigated by the manner in which it was being played, and the well done job at poking that was being done. (A very useful skill to learn, I wont deny.) (Also, performance was influenced by modules, another thing that a new player wont have on a Champion mech.)

It seems like, crit slot limitations to tonnage used, 8 ERSLs might be more worthy for the build? But then, so close ranged and ghost heat. That is where I feel the ERMLs fill in better for a new player. As much as a contradiction as that may seem. They provide better range, reasonable burn times, but the heat is a bit higher. Would anyone consider a mix of ERMLs and ERSLs with more heatsinks possibly? (Just thinking here is all. Not sure how well it could work.)


I think the Nova Champion is not going to be an easy one to devise. I do see interesting builds here or there, but a lot of the meta high tier 10 ERSLs or lasers and MG builds are rather prevalent. I'm concerned that one of these more common builds will take the role, and then quirks will change (or be removed like it is suppose to be with the new Skill Trees) and the meta will shift, and then we have another smoking wreck of a Champion mech.

We can't plan for everything, but I think avoiding Ghost heat should be something we try to aim for. So far, the 3 AMS and 6 ERML build does that. LRMs are a more common problem in T5 (where new players start out), so AMS is a help there. It avoids ghost heat. But the normal heat on it... There is only so much we can do to try and help these new players. There may be no "right" choice, but also no "wrong" choice for the most part. (Or maybe I'm just overthinking this.)


I'm starting to think, with such a huge change as the new Skill Trees coming out... Maybe it would have been best to wait for these new champion builds till we've had some experience with the new system? Like, if some/all quirks are being removed with the new system, that is something we should consider, but we can't because we don't know what is changing... Maybe a month too soon for this? (But, new champions are always nice to have... The contradiction... )

[Mycroft000]

Tesunie, on 23 January 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

I would also note as far as the video goes... That is not a new pilot to MW:O. They back up and poke, they jump over things and shoot while in the air. They use terrain and space their shooting to stay cool (which is why they poke). They appear to be rather well skilled, in comparison to what I'd expect from a new player.

I think the build has merit as a new player build, but I have to agree with what you say. Even in the video it ran rather hot. (But then again, we can only do so much.) That was mitigated by the manner in which it was being played, and the well done job at poking that was being done. (A very useful skill to learn, I wont deny.) (Also, performance was influenced by modules, another thing that a new player wont have on a Champion mech.)

It seems like, crit slot limitations to tonnage used, 8 ERSLs might be more worthy for the build? But then, so close ranged and ghost heat. That is where I feel the ERMLs fill in better for a new player. As much as a contradiction as that may seem. They provide better range, reasonable burn times, but the heat is a bit higher. Would anyone consider a mix of ERMLs and ERSLs with more heatsinks possibly? (Just thinking here is all. Not sure how well it could work.)


I think the Nova Champion is not going to be an easy one to devise. I do see interesting builds here or there, but a lot of the meta high tier 10 ERSLs or lasers and MG builds are rather prevalent. I'm concerned that one of these more common builds will take the role, and then quirks will change (or be removed like it is suppose to be with the new Skill Trees) and the meta will shift, and then we have another smoking wreck of a Champion mech.

We can't plan for everything, but I think avoiding Ghost heat should be something we try to aim for. So far, the 3 AMS and 6 ERML build does that. LRMs are a more common problem in T5 (where new players start out), so AMS is a help there. It avoids ghost heat. But the normal heat on it... There is only so much we can do to try and help these new players. There may be no "right" choice, but also no "wrong" choice for the most part. (Or maybe I'm just overthinking this.)


I'm starting to think, with such a huge change as the new Skill Trees coming out... Maybe it would have been best to wait for these new champion builds till we've had some experience with the new system? Like, if some/all quirks are being removed with the new system, that is something we should consider, but we can't because we don't know what is changing... Maybe a month too soon for this? (But, new champions are always nice to have... The contradiction... )

I'm going to test the 8ERSL 3ams build shortly. But I will say unequivocally that the 10ERSL/4MG builds are not good for new players; my reasoning behind that is that the machine guns have dramatically closer range even than the ERSLs(240 max MG range vs 200 optimal ERSL range), combined with the fact that you end up adding a 3rd weapon group, it makes managing weapon fire vastly more difficult for the new player.

I also think that the 3xAMS will make the newer players a little too brave in this build(as it did for me, and I know how to play against LRMS).

And your question of mixing mediums and smalls, I tried that shortly after the quirk pass on the Nova and found that the heat mitigation of the quirks wasn't enough to make it worth having to juggle weapon cool down timing.

And speaking of quirks, as a Nova pilot, I am genuinely looking forward to the new skill tree. I feel like the loss in mobility across the board will make tuning the mech to my skills turn it from the beast I already consider it to be, into a truly under the radar monster.

And I'll also say that the range argument while accurate, in practice isn't that much of a concern. I find that I do the bulk of my damage in the 250-350 meter range, close but not hugging the enemy.

I do feel, if there is a machine gun build to try it's going to be something very unorthodox:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f54b3985cad81fb

This would retain the 2 weapon groups, give a beefy bonus on armor to the left arm, be very solid in terms of heat management, and allows for some serious critical hits once the armor is gone.

[Tesunie]

mycroft000, on 23 January 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

I do feel, if there is a machine gun build to try it's going to be something very unorthodox:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f54b3985cad81fb

This would retain the 2 weapon groups, give a beefy bonus on armor to the left arm, be very solid in terms of heat management, and allows for some serious critical hits once the armor is gone.

Hum. An interesting build. The shield arm would be more practical for more experienced players, and the bulk of the weapons on one arm may be an issue. Take that one arm (or side) and they are effectively helpless. (I have a similar build on my Nova D, but with LRMs on the other arm instead of MGs on the CT. 5 ERSLs, TAG and 2 LRM15s (I think).)


I am curious what you may think of my Nova build... I know the Nova tends to be known for it's laser boating, but the more I look at the laser boat posts, the less I like that concept for a new player... If you ever give it a try, let me know. If you don't wish to, that is also completely fine as well. (I know, only so much one person can do and all.)


I have my Nova S with 2 UAC2s (may need to be changed to LB2x instead, not sure yet) and 4 ERMLs. It's a good all purpose build, but I wouldn't recommend it to new players. Runs rather hot if you aren't careful. (The reason I didn't suggest it here.)

[Mycroft000]

Tesunie, on 23 January 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

Hum. An interesting build. The shield arm would be more practical for more experienced players, and the bulk of the weapons on one arm may be an issue. Take that one arm (or side) and they are effectively helpless. (I have a similar build on my Nova D, but with LRMs on the other arm instead of MGs on the CT. 5 ERSLs, TAG and 2 LRM15s (I think).)


I am curious what you may think of my Nova build... I know the Nova tends to be known for it's laser boating, but the more I look at the laser boat posts, the less I like that concept for a new player... If you ever give it a try, let me know. If you don't wish to, that is also completely fine as well. (I know, only so much one person can do and all.)


I have my Nova S with 2 UAC2s (may need to be changed to LB2x instead, not sure yet) and 4 ERMLs. It's a good all purpose build, but I wouldn't recommend it to new players. Runs rather hot if you aren't careful. (The reason I didn't suggest it here.)

If you send me the loadout I'll test it and see how well I can run it. For me any match I run a Nova in where I get less than 400 damage(assuming I don't get myself killed doing something foolish) is a disappointment, and for a long time any match that I didn't get 750-1000+ in my NVA-Prime was flat out bad.


Edit: Nevermind, pretty simple build, running it now.

Edit 2: 2nd match and it seems to be pretty decent, though I am going to try the LB2 build next.

Edit 3: Switching to 2 LB2 and 4ERML is fairly effective, 624 damage first match.

Edited by mycroft000, 23 January 2017 - 02:58 PM.

[Natred]

Ecm and two large pulse, with the pulse lasers in the arms.

Edited by Natred, 23 January 2017 - 04:56 PM.

[Mycroft000]

Natred, on 23 January 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:

Ecm and two large pulse, with the pulse lasers in the arms.

If the Nova had access to ECM in this game, I would never play another mech.