195 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

Yes please! I'd like at least two.
1. Metropolitan Ruins, bombed out buildings, craters of various sizes, etc.

2. Expansive city large blocks of big buildings.

Also there should be a mech factory and/or a subway system to fight through.

[Anjian]

Damn, I miss the city combat in MW4.

The combat on this video starts around 7:20.

Edited by Anjian, 16 January 2017 - 04:22 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

TheArisen, on 16 January 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

Yes please! I'd like at least two.
1. Metropolitan Ruins, bombed out buildings, craters of various sizes, etc.

2. Expansive city large blocks of big buildings.

Also there should be a mech factory and/or a subway system to fight through.

There is one thing I want to point out though. I know some people would love to see really, really big buildings. Like skyscrapers. I don't think PGI would ever make a map like that, but if they did, it's important to consider something I would call the 'Citadel effect'. Namely, when the buildings get bigger, it becomes harder and harder to coordinate attacks from two or three different sides.

When a building is really, really big, it's pretty hard to divide your forces in two and attack around that building from both sides. Why? Because there's a certain point where the defenders, assuming they have formed a death ball, can just charge forward on one side and take out half the attacking team before the attacking team has time to either complete their pincer attack or rush back to defend their vulnerable side. This is my problem is the huge terrain blocks on Grim Plexus, for example, or the center of Terra Therma (both the original and the new version). When terrain blocks (or buildings) become too big, it's increasingly hard for a small group of 12-mechs or less to carry out successful pincer attacks. As a result, when the buildings are too big, it leads to chokepoint warfare and deathballs.

This is the main reason I don't want huuuge buildings, even if PGI had the capacity to make maps like that without melting our computers.

[Red Shrike]

Tristan Winter, on 16 January 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:

This is the main reason I don't want huuuge buildings, even if PGI had the capacity to make maps like that without melting our computers.

Not to mention that big buildings make the mechs seem smaller. (forest colony anyone?)

[Pariah Devalis]

Tristan Winter, on 16 January 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:

There is one thing I want to point out though. I know some people would love to see really, really big buildings. Like skyscrapers. I don't think PGI would ever make a map like that, but if they did, it's important to consider something I would call the 'Citadel effect'. Namely, when the buildings get bigger, it becomes harder and harder to coordinate attacks from two or three different sides.

When a building is really, really big, it's pretty hard to divide your forces in two and attack around that building from both sides. Why? Because there's a certain point where the defenders, assuming they have formed a death ball, can just charge forward on one side and take out half the attacking team before the attacking team has time to either complete their pincer attack or rush back to defend their vulnerable side. This is my problem is the huge terrain blocks on Grim Plexus, for example, or the center of Terra Therma (both the original and the new version). When terrain blocks (or buildings) become too big, it's increasingly hard for a small group of 12-mechs or less to carry out successful pincer attacks. As a result, when the buildings are too big, it leads to chokepoint warfare and deathballs.

This is the main reason I don't want huuuge buildings, even if PGI had the capacity to make maps like that without melting our computers.

Citadel effect is reduced or eliminated when there is more than one of those huge buildings. That said, I would prefer dense blocks of smaller buildings, like what's in upper and lower city. A map full of that. Yes please!

I also want areas for jump capable mechs to scamper up onto. It actually punishes torso mounts. High enough angle, you cannot depress your torso guns enough to shoot down. You need to use arm mounts to exploit those sorts of angles.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 16 January 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

Pariah Devalis, on 16 January 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

Citadel effect is reduced or eliminated when there is more than one of those huge buildings. That said, I would prefer dense blocks of smaller buildings, like what's in upper and lower city. A map full of that. Yes please!

I also want areas for jump capable mechs to scamper up onto. It actually punishes torso mounts. High enough angle, you cannot depress your torso guns enough to shoot down. You need to use arm mounts to exploit those sorts of angles.

As a thought experiment, imagine a whole map full of huge buildings. Make them 20 times as long and wide as Citadel, but all equally big. Would you try to use pincer attacks or would you just deathball and stay together? As the buildings get bigger, it becomes increasingly more difficult to coordinate the lances and the team becomes more vulnerable to counter-attacks, I think.

I definitely, definitely want more maps that punish torso mounts though. That would be fantastic.

Red Shrike, on 16 January 2017 - 06:51 AM, said:

Not to mention that big buildings make the mechs seem smaller. (forest colony anyone?)

Absolutely. If they make the buildings big enough, it just feels like we're playing Duke Nukem 3D or something.

[Pariah Devalis]

Tristan Winter, on 16 January 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

As a thought experiment, imagine a whole map full of huge buildings. Make them 20 times as long and wide as Citadel, but all equally big. Would you try to use pincer attacks or would you just deathball and stay together? As the buildings get bigger, it becomes increasingly more difficult to coordinate the lances and the team becomes more vulnerable to counter-attacks, I think.

I definitely, definitely want more maps that punish torso mounts though. That would be fantastic.


Absolutely. If they make the buildings big enough, it just feels like we're playing Duke Nukem 3D or something.

Sure, if you make a big enough structure, there's no point in splitting. "Big enough" is probably roughly the diameter of Citadel, but cut that structure in half and it should be fine. For example, those skyscrapers on the hill overlooking the Crimson Straight basin. Big enough to dominate the visual area, enough displacement to recognize as a huge structure when you're by it, but narrow enough to easily split around it.

However, flip side to the argument, as another thought experiment. If RC had two citadels, on either side of the map, in otherwise equal distance to the spawns, teams might camp both, but it would force one side or the other to move. Removes the monopoly of the massive terrain feature magnet. Put several citadels in an array, with roads between them, and there is now no more dominating features on the map, and mechs will no longer hump any one of those structures.

It's too big a structure to split up and such, but having multiple ones would create more movement.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 16 January 2017 - 08:29 AM.

[Variant1]

We have a lrm a friendly map(polar). Think its time we got a brawl friendly map
I support this idea!

[Mystere]

Pariah Devalis, on 16 January 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

However, flip side to the argument, as another thought experiment. If RC had two citadels, on either side of the map, in otherwise equal distance to the spawns, teams might camp both, but it would force one side or the other to move. Removes the monopoly of the massive terrain feature magnet. Put several citadels in an array, with roads between them, and there is now no more dominating features on the map, and mechs will no longer hump any one of those structures.

Frankly, I am sick and tired of all the existing symmetry. I much prefer asymmetry -- at all levels.

[Marius Evander]

I feel the need to brawllllll

[50 50]

I think it would be a great addition.
Typically there are some long wide streets in any city, major arterial roads/freeways so there is some room for LRMs and long range direct fire engagements.
But definately, would be a nice addition.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Tristan Winter, on 16 January 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:

There is one thing I want to point out though. I know some people would love to see really, really big buildings. Like skyscrapers. I don't think PGI would ever make a map like that, but if they did, it's important to consider something I would call the 'Citadel effect'. Namely, when the buildings get bigger, it becomes harder and harder to coordinate attacks from two or three different sides.

When a building is really, really big, it's pretty hard to divide your forces in two and attack around that building from both sides. Why? Because there's a certain point where the defenders, assuming they have formed a death ball, can just charge forward on one side and take out half the attacking team before the attacking team has time to either complete their pincer attack or rush back to defend their vulnerable side. This is my problem is the huge terrain blocks on Grim Plexus, for example, or the center of Terra Therma (both the original and the new version). When terrain blocks (or buildings) become too big, it's increasingly hard for a small group of 12-mechs or less to carry out successful pincer attacks. As a result, when the buildings are too big, it leads to chokepoint warfare and deathballs.

This is the main reason I don't want huuuge buildings, even if PGI had the capacity to make maps like that without melting our computers.

The trick isn't to keep the buildings small, it's to keep their footprints small. The buildings can be towering skyscrapers, but if their footprints aren't mountainous it takes only moments to circle them.

A proper Down Town would likely have a titular area at the center of the map with a dozen or so skyscrapers over several blocks. Around them would be lower buildings, still mostly pretty tall but not absolutely towering. As you get farther from the middle you'd start to have more 3-6 story buildings, from apartment complexes to shopping centers, from restaurants to shops, from parking structures to strip malls. Throw in some parks, some broad avenues and boulevards, maybe a government section with a domed and colonnaded capitol and statuary, a library, parking lots, warehousing and shipping centers, and any number of other things. Scale can be maintained throughout by means of destructible cars and other vehicles, which we know PGI can do since they feature them in the tutorial if nothing else.

I'd love to see a Down Town map combined with a BAP buff, allowing for LoS-free detection within half the BAP's effective range.

[Destructicus]

The game needs this so bad

[Coolant]

yes Inner City from MW4...buildings that no one can see over...straight city blocks filled with nothing but buildings

[Tristan Winter]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 16 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

The trick isn't to keep the buildings small, it's to keep their footprints small. The buildings can be towering skyscrapers, but if their footprints aren't mountainous it takes only moments to circle them.

That is actually what I meant. But I used the word 'skyscraper' because it's relatively rare to have a building with 100 floors when the footprint has the same surface as that of a kiosk.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 16 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

Scale can be maintained throughout by means of destructible cars and other vehicles, which we know PGI can do since they feature them in the tutorial if nothing else.

Not to mention the destructible crates and stuff.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 16 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

I'd love to see a Down Town map combined with a BAP buff, allowing for LoS-free detection within half the BAP's effective range.

I'd like that. My ability to detect powered down mechs hasn't really played a huge role in matches thus far.

[50 50]

Tristan Winter, on 16 January 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

As a thought experiment, imagine a whole map full of huge buildings. Make them 20 times as long and wide as Citadel, but all equally big. Would you try to use pincer attacks or would you just deathball and stay together? As the buildings get bigger, it becomes increasingly more difficult to coordinate the lances and the team becomes more vulnerable to counter-attacks, I think.

I definitely, definitely want more maps that punish torso mounts though. That would be fantastic.


Absolutely. If they make the buildings big enough, it just feels like we're playing Duke Nukem 3D or something.

Keep in mind that the effectiveness of pushing one side or the other will depend on the amount of space that is available.
I would expect there to be alleys that only a light might traverse, two lane streets that a single large mech might fit down to larger arterial multi-lane roads that will allow mechs side by side.
Bottle necks will be a thing and I believe that the more a map/mode encourages a team to split up the death ball so it is more about the lances the better. Part of that is in the design of the map, part of it with objectives.

[xengk]

Tristan Winter, on 16 January 2017 - 03:27 AM, said:

Personally, I don't want a map with a "focal point", because all the worst maps in MWO have "focal points" and it's boring as hell. I'm sick to death with fighting over Citadel, Platform, Caldera, etc. I'd like more maps like Polar Highlands, where there's no real focal point and fighting can take place just about anywhere.

Narrow water ways or subways for light mechs to move through would be great, if PGI could manage it. But you also need to think about what happens if a light mech starts camping in a place that is inaccessible to bigger mechs with 10 minutes left on the clock. I'm not saying it's impossible now, but it's a lot harder to do.

Sadly people tend to get lost without a focal point.
From experience, scattering and getting roll happen most often on polar, and terra.
Although there are recognizable landmark like F7 platform in terra, and H9 "peak" in polar. But most likely due to being equally distanced from opposite spawn point, and conditioned by Domination placement.
I like map like Caustic and River City, where there is a central focal point, and several areas isolated from focal point for skirmish.

River can be wide enough that any mech can splash around in, but only the shortest mech can fully submerge.
Then again I forgot how wonky weapon physics work in water for this game.

[Tristan Winter]

xengk, on 17 January 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

Sadly people tend to get lost without a focal point.
From experience, scattering and getting roll happen most often on polar, and terra.

That's not my experience at all. And from my experience, Polar tends to be the map where teams communicate more in the solo queue (except for Domination), because there's no clear focal point and not such a clear standard way of doing things. On other maps, both teams just silently march into position. On Polar Highlands, I see more communication and people actually trying to suggest plans.

Crimson Strait: Walk to platform
River City: Walk to Citadel
Viridian Bog: Take control of the two main plateaus
HPG Manifold: Get to center, circle right.
Etc.

I'm not saying there's no standard tactic on Polar Highlands at all, but I do see more people breaking from the norm on that map.

[DRlFTER]

I would love this. Make it so!

[Johnny Z]

One of the best movies ever this scene shows how a city map could be where mechs are fighting over an important place and danger of falling and ending match would be present.
(mechs in theory would survive the fall but their match would be over)



If anyone hasn't seen the 5th Element, its a must watch.

Speaking of cities. Not sure how good this one will be.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 January 2017 - 04:06 AM.