426 replies to this topic

[SmokeGuar]

Remaining Clan scouts nerfed, even though FW scouting sits 90% of time firmly on IS side. Check.

Marauder IIC head not fixed, even though it is by far easiest to hit. Check. Or make that uncheck, and its only been, what, a month?

Wild guess, handful of pilots shift performance figures on some Clan mechs and rest of population suffers. Personally, both Summoner and Night Gyr are not favorites, and i think lot of players have difficulties with these. Streak Cat on the other hand, my fault.

[Kael Posavatz]

InnerSphereNews, on 20 January 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

The balance dynamic between the Inner Sphere and Clan Factions is something under heavy evaluation, particularly as we approach a timeline advancement this summer. This adjustment to Clan XL cooling efficiency is a step in that process, making the loss of a Side Torso more impactful on the performance of Clan Mechs. There's been much discussion about this change since its original announcement in the January Roadmap, and we'd like to expand the explanation originally provided for this change.

...we want to stress that we are not solely looking at Engine balance as only being a matter of IS XL versus Clan XL, but between all Engine options available to the player. This includes Standard Engines and smaller Engine sizes of both types.

In other words: We see balance as an issue of all engine options available to all players. Since there are a bunch of mechs with only one option, we can bring all mechs into better balance by only tinkering with the one. Therefore, Dear Clan Loyalists, in light of your fancy omnimech having one engine option we have decided to give the players options about how to regard these changes. Your options are to suffer, play exclusively Clan BattleMechs, come over to the Inner Sphere, or uninstall.




This change does not address the inherent issues with the IS XL, or the issues plaguing the standard engines in general. But, hey, I guess now the game is balanced enough that revised skill trees can handle the rest before new tech hits.

Edited by Kael Posavatz, 20 January 2017 - 05:59 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

BLOOD WOLF, on 20 January 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

yea, I mean how often are you gonna lose a side torso and manage to keep most your weapons. I guess it won't be that bad

the IS, just vomits lasers all day. The warhammer pretty much just alpha's all the time anyway. At least now I can punch through it a little better.

# IS are the new TANK MECHS

Of course IS have to vomit lasers since taking the current lackluster ballistics almost always requires a fragile isXL engine. Do you actually see more IS mechs packing both ballistics and energy weapons like the Clans do? Fk no, and those that do pack 2-3 (AC2-5) MIGHT have room for a couple of MED lasers.

Fk the quirks. They should be used as originally intended, for ***** flavor, not for actually tech balancing, as that can actually indicates that things are really FKUP.

vs

Naturally IS is a primarily laser vomit technology for variety of reasons. Heavy and space consuming IS ballistics which requires most mechs to equip that fragile thing called isXL engine. Have you happened to have seen lots of IS mechs running a decent load of energy weapons with ballistics like the Clans do effectively? iie? Neither have I. Even if the IS gets at least the UAC10 and isERML (quirked ML), it will still be a sad story since the isERML is not the cERML, but even that UAC10/ERML are being run on cXL engines.

As for the current and future quirks. Quirks that changes at the drop of a hat, unfortunately sometimes it happens when Russ or Paul have been abused by them, and nor are they any longer being used for "flavor" but to actually balance the tech. Tis a shame, as that would make it seem PGI do not know themselves.

[Wing 0]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 January 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

Since when is the WHM outperforming Night Gyrs and Timber Wolves?

I thought the Ebons and Hellbringers were outperforming by far. wtf is with these changes. does PGI have a deathwish?

[Uncle Totty]

Prosperity Park, on 20 January 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

Clans with lose 40% of their engine HS upon ST loss with XL equipped.
IS lose 100% of their Engine HS upon ST loss with XL equipped.

Clans get a partial speed reduction upon XL ST loss.
IS gets a 100% speed reduction (renders you immobile) upon XL ST loss.

Clans lose ~ half their weapons and heatsinks upon XL ST loss.
Is lose 100% of weapons and heatsinks upon XL ST loss.


Are Clanners complaining about how bad their XL engines will become after the nerf?

Fine, I guess I'll just put a standard engine in my Timber Wolf th... Oh wait.

[Reza Malin]

Im really hacked off about a couple of clan changes.

I mean seriously, i almost never see another viper or huntsman in FP. And rarely see them in QP.

Makes me wonder where they get their data from and what the sample size actually is.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Quote

There's been much discussion about the option of IS XL Engines being provided the same benefits as Clan XL Engines, but in light of the other benefits provided by larger Engine sizes and the massive offensive boost XL Engines can facilitate, such a change is not currently conducive to appropriate XL versus Standard Engine balance.

You mean BALANCE between Clan & IS mechs....??? Cause it is getting ridiculous, just "XL check" an IS mech and watch them die the majority of the time... knock off a ST of a Clan mech and now it has the firepower of an IS mech WITH an XL engine. Broken... oh and now the "heat penalty" does not even apply to their overall cooling capacity, way to soften that Nerf into non-existence.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 20 January 2017 - 06:19 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Widowmaker1981, on 20 January 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

Derp.

1) So what about the Clan standard then? Its fine if no one uses that, or what? Only the IS standard engine needs to be used?
2) Why not just buff standards if its a problem? They are massively niche engines anyway, used in about 4 chassis even while IS XLs are instadeath. Try +30% (random value pulled out of my ***) structure for all 3 torso sections when mounting a Standard.

People will continue to rage about engine balance forever while IS-XL = dead on ST loss and Clan XL = alive.

IS XL's are going to remain death on ST loss, I think. I figure a better angle here is to push harder for STD buffs, which would be a very viable way to go keeping standard engines viable. I think you'd have a lot more success with Russ that way, as it preserves choice and faction differentiation.

And yes, that should come with a SUBSTANTIAL structure buff. I don't think something like +20% or such is at all unreasonable; maybe even more.

Buffing STD engines is a MUCH better approach vs just turning them into SHS-like garbage. Meaningful choices are good choices.

[Wintersdark]

Also... Really? The Warhammer is losing roughly 6 (bonus) structure per location. It'll still have bonus structure.

I'm not arguing that it should be nerfed, but really that's not a huge chassis ruining nerf as it stands. The Whammy will be fine.

[Tarl Cabot]

50 50, on 20 January 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

Good to see the trend of moving the structure quirks to armour quirks.
The perception of getting through the armour but not being able to destroy a section creates a sense of disbelief and that something else is going on.

Really looking forward to seeing and learning more about the skill tree and the new Incursion mode. Hope to read some details soon.


Looking forward to seeing what is ahead, thanks for the game PGI!

The change from structural quirks to armor quirks are not free since it will cost tonnage to use the extra points. Corrected, though the change in to armor quirks from structural quirks will mean less crit opportunities while the pts last.

Edited, had to visit the mechlab again and strip a Wolverine (no, not THAT Wolverine..) as check again. I had previously read it wrong.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 20 January 2017 - 08:07 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 20 January 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

IS XL's are going to remain death on ST loss, I think. I figure a better angle here is to push harder for STD buffs, which would be a very viable way to go keeping standard engines viable. I think you'd have a lot more success with Russ that way, as it preserves choice and faction differentiation.

And yes, that should come with a SUBSTANTIAL structure buff. I don't think something like +20% or such is at all unreasonable; maybe even more.

Buffing STD engines is a MUCH better approach vs just turning them into SHS-like garbage. Meaningful choices are good choices.

I'm all for 100% boost

Double structure (or structure=armour) for STD engines, along the Torso



Of course, that doesn't help Comp matches or Duels(Legs for Days)...but the PUG LIFE is by far torso deaths.


That, and agility buffs, Accel, Decel, twist speed
Lesser, but fair, buffs. That could be 20%

Tarl Cabot, on 20 January 2017 - 06:24 PM, said:

The change from structural quirks to armor quirks are not free since it will cost tonnage to use the extra points. On the other hand, less structural quirks, less crit opportunities until the pts are gone.

The quirk armour is free

It now appears in the mechlab, which is nice, but costs nothing.
It's the same as Structure Quirks, but cannot be Crit. It will also prevent the annoying AF Crimson red Structure paperdolls taking 20 damage, because quirks don't seem to appear on Paperdolls

[Tarl Cabot]

S0ulReapr, on 20 January 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

When they advance the timeline, IS will get Light Fusion Engines. IS Mechs with IS XLs are not supposed to and should never be able to survive losing a side torso, but IS Light Fusion Engines will end up being the preferred IS engines.

In a game with actual engine crits that could happen in all torso sections w/an engine component, then the death of the complete loss of a side torso of an isXL engine would be fine. Why? Because all mechs, be it cXL or isXL, would be affected and most mechs would likely be dropped before any one torso is completely destroyed.

Using PGI own post, which likely pertained to isXL situation as they thought they would eventually have actual engine crits.

Quote

Destruction of a Clan Side Torso

Although we hope to eventually put in a full engine critical hit system that would affect both IS and Clan 'Mechs, we are going to start out with a change to place some penalty on a Clan 'Mech that loses a side torso. Essentially, there needs to be some penalty for losing 2 critical engine slots. Using the tabletop game as a guideline, we have decided to not make movement a part of the penalty but to save that for some future implementation on the effects of heat on your 'Mechs functionality. A Clan engine has a total of 10 critical engine slots and the destruction of a Side Torso in a clan ‘Mech means the loss of two of those slots, or 20%. With this in mind, we have decided to implement a rule that the destruction of a side torso in a Clan 'Mech will result in a loss of 20% of the engines internal heat sink capacity. By way of example, a Timber Wolf with 15 internal engine heat sinks will lose the cooling equivalent of 3 of those heat sinks. A small penalty, but we feel that heat sink loss along with the loss of everything in that torso and arm will be enough.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 20 January 2017 - 06:42 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

StaggerCheck, on 20 January 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

They're making everything crap wagons, apparently, Gas. The fact that they're rolling quirks back on the Warhammer just means it is near the top of the heap. As to your edit... go right now and look over the current structure quirks between the two chassis in question. I couldn't find one example where the Archer was better off than the Warhammer. Take the numbers as a whole, not just one instance where '22 on the Center Torso is better than 18'.

STs 15 on the Archer, and 13 on the Warhammer... Yeah the Warhammer has more structure on its limbs but torso is more important.

[Edward Hazen]

Tarl Cabot, on 20 January 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

In a game with actual engine crits that could happen in all torso sections w/an engine component, then the death of the complete loss of a side torso of an isXL engine would be fine. Why? Because all mechs, be it cXL or isXL, would be affected and most mechs would likely be dropped before any one torso is completely destroyed.

Using PGI own post, which likely pertained to isXL situation as they thought they would eventually have actual engine crits.

Ah, but there is a movement penalty for Clan XLs when the side torso is lost as well as the heat dissipation penalty, so it is about even with the TT rules except the heat penalty is a bit worse.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

S0ulReapr, on 20 January 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

Ah, but there is a movement penalty for Clan XLs when the side torso is lost as well as the heat dissipation penalty, so it is about even with the TT rules except the heat penalty is a bit worse.

isXL=Death < cXL=Alive

Any talk of "balance" is utter bullsh1t until that is addressed... no matter how much makeup you put on Ms Piggy, she is still a pig.

[Dee Eight]

Did people actually LOOK at the quirk pdf files before posting diatribes, whines and complaints ?

So the shadow cat loses minor structure quirks. Big Whoop. I'll trade some leg and arm structure any day for the extra weapon quirks they're getting.

Also as to the Huntsman and Hunchback 2C and Summoner... its as if NOBODY remembers what happened to the Victor when IT was the Poptart PPC meta mech... and then you all act surprised when you've been building other mechs to do the same thing....and oh look what happens. Worse...some of you complained about Summoner being OP in the forums for hundreds of posts...and the response from PGI is pretty much what happened with the kodiaks. You don't want nerfage.... don't advertise how you're building/playing the mechs.

[Dee Eight]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 January 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

STs 15 on the Archer, and 13 on the Warhammer... Yeah the Warhammer has more structure on its limbs but torso is more important.

Archers also have missile bay doors which increase the mech's height profile and are more likely to get your mech hit if you're trying to not penalize your rate of fire when targets actually present themselves.

[Voxsera Hazen]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 20 January 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

isXL=Death < cXL=Alive

Any talk of "balance" is utter bullsh1t until that is addressed... no matter how much makeup you put on Ms Piggy, she is still a pig.

Let me know when i can change my engines to STD's on my omnimechs. Then talk.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Voxsera Hazen, on 20 January 2017 - 07:29 PM, said:

Let me know when i can change my engines to STD's on my omnimechs. Then talk.

Sure... I will totally agree with that trade, Omnimechs are demolished and you cant change Omnipods but can use a STD, isXL is not insta-death. oh wait... your entire premise is garbage and you did not think it out at all, did you?

[SuperFunkTron]

Promessa, on 20 January 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

The metrics might say the SCH is over performing, but I wonder what they say about the Ice Ferret... Is there even enough data on the ice ferrets to base changes on? Are you sure some mechs aren't over performing just because they are popular and the pilots have gotten good with them, at least in part? Maybe other mechs would be just as popular if they were worth dropping in. You could drop all the quirks on the Scats, it won't put people in Ice Ferrets and they would still out perform them.

If you are implying that Ice Ferrets aren't worth dropping in you are grossly mistaken. The reality is that they have been incentivized enough for the general public to fall in love with them. They are on the small end of the mediums with no ECM or jump capabilities, but those things can lay down some hurt once people learn how to use them. The real issue is that everyone has the same pool to choose from with zero initiative to vary their selections. If the mechs were made to be more faction specific, then you'd have factions that would have better assaults (Steiner), but their speed would be their weakness. Then you create dynamic decks for players to use knowing that their particular faction favors speed, armor, specific weaponry, stealth, or any combination of those items. Then you create clearer roles for each of these mechs and a situation in which people attempt to implement those roles rather than trying to balance every mech to have the potential to be a jack of all trades.