426 replies to this topic

[Grey Death Storm]

MovinTarget, on 21 January 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

They may ultimately go that route... but they have to do it on their terms not ours...

If they make the change, no one is responsible but them so they can't just decide to do it. They have to anticipate the consequences, unlike us when we spew solutions.

And i appreciate your tone and thoughtfulness in this thread. we all haven't had our moments where we think we have the solution. Sometimes we might have it right sometimes we don't. Sometimes its the right idea but not fleshed out enough to be convincing...

Don't for a moment that disagreements will force me into troll mode

I doubt my troll mode would be any good... everyone would have to read my posts with british accent and with a dictionary at their side...

"I doubt my troll mode would be any good... everyone would have to read my posts with british accent and with a dictionary at their side..."

the truth is Im getting to long in the tooth now for trolling. so i can relate

note this still does not change my mind.

[SuperFunkTron]

Wintersdark, on 21 January 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Mixed tech has serious problems, most notably that if no effort is made to balance IS vs Clan tech, people will just ditch IS tech and the factions will have no flavour at all - it'll be clan with IS banners vs Clan with clan banners.

If they DO balance IS vs Clan, then it's not an issue. The later is preferable.

Could you imagine a Nova prime running the benefit of cooler medium lasers with a shorter burn, even at the expense of some range? I'm curious how dangerous that thing would be with those IS med lasers!

[I_AM_ZUUL]

cBiscuitMWO, on 21 January 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

Anyone else need some more popcorn? This is a sad amount of tears being shed for a mechanic that has been in the MechWarrior/Battletech games since the beginning.

Clan XL Engines are 2 slots in each torso.
Inner Sphere XL Engines are 3 slots in each torso.

3 Engine hits is a wreck. Each engine hit is also normally the equivalent of 20-25% increase in heat. So a clan xl engine should be 40%-50% heat anyway.

THERE ARE ZERO ENGINE CRITS IN THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!! So you sir are either being deliberately disingenuous or intentionally stupid... liar or moron, take your pick.

[TheFallOfTheReaper]

Run the aintiquirk is here! Nah good job
The nerf bat has come for all, remember the new skill tree kills them all?

Edited by ShadowHimself, 21 January 2017 - 05:31 PM.

[InspectorG]

I TRIPLE DOG DARE any PGI employee to take a 2 ERPPC Summoner into Solo play for at least 20 straight matches and say it needs a nerf/performs better than its popularity indicates.


Ridiculous.

[John McHobo]

Thoughts on the quirk changes:

KFX-C:
Was it really that powerful?

Viper:
Nerf seems to be ok since the Viper truly boats MGs.

Shadow Cat:
The SHC outperforms the medium bracket...seriously.
Its low on hardpoints, podspace and armor and for a long time the SHC-P was terrible due to MGs being terrible, but removing the few structure quirks it has is a bad decision, the mech is extremely hard to play as it is.
How it outperforms huntsman, Nova and Stormcrow is beyond me.
IF HOWEVER you looked at the Ice Ferret in comparison, then I guess you are right...

Ice Ferret:
It needs help.

Summoner:
The only Summoner build I had trouble against is the SRM-boat. And its not OP, just playable. Nerfing ballistic quirks on a one-ballistic-slot mech is a terrible choice.

Orion IIC:
Good, he needs help.

Dragon:
Emphasizing on mobility fits with the lore and boosts an underperforming mech. Excellent.

Cataphract:
Same as Orion IIC.

Orion
Same as Orion IIC.

Highlander:
I like the buff, but I liked the Highlander better when there was more emphasis on its mobility. Why it never gets the JJ buff a Dire Wolf of all mechs got is beyond me (I am aware of PPC-poptarting)

Zeus:
The mobility quirks are good, but I think it needs weapon quirks too.

Victor:
Why do you hate it so much. Its hands down the worst IS Assault.

Atlas:
I assume there is a typo in the K´s CTstructure/armor-section?

Warhammer:
Its a solid Heavy, I dont see it to be that powerful, so I am not sure if the performance differnce is not based in the heavies around it.

edit:spelling

Edited by John McHobo, 21 January 2017 - 02:42 PM.

[MovinTarget]

John McHobo, on 21 January 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Ice Ferret:
It needs help.

Understatement of the 3050's

[John McHobo]

GweNTLeR, on 20 January 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

The bushwaker quirks are strange. Why would you need energy cooldown quirk with a single energy weapon? Better bring some missile quirks...

Actually that is smart use of a quirk. The player gets an incentive to not boat, but use a more diverse setup.
Quirking an overpresent weapon hardpoint type, that is horrible.

[El Ares]

SuperFunkTron, on 21 January 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

Could you imagine a Nova prime running the benefit of cooler medium lasers with a shorter burn, even at the expense of some range? I'm curious how dangerous that thing would be with those IS med lasers!

GIve us the Komodo, PLEASE (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Komodo)

[Edward Hazen]

Gentleman Reaper, on 20 January 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

They're not fine, the extra firepower and mobility that XLs give you offsets any extra survivability the STD tries to give you.

They work the way they are supposed to so therefore they are fine.

[Domoneky]

This is why we need to stop playing this game and let PGI go out of business...for the sake of the IP.

[Weepy Wanebow]

Just out of curiosity what is the general consensus for XL balance?

I see a lot of people saying that they need to be balanced but I don't see a lot of suggestions. The only suggestion I see is to have isXLs not resulting in death on a side torso loss. So it's only real draw back would be the extra CRIT slot then?

Why isn't balance with STD engines a real consideration for most people?

I see a lot of the meta builds use an XL regardless of the vulnerability it adds to a mech. I get that you want heavier higher damage dealing weapons but I've had decent success in some Mechs by compromising on both speed and fire power for tankiness.

I get that people want as fast and as hard hitting as possible but shouldn't there be a trade off for that?

Clan Omnimechs have locked engines and certain locked components, thats one of their draw backs. Being able to just change around the Mechs hard points to your liking is a pretty big advantage. Even more so once you don't need 3 Mechs to master a mech. I mean the quick hard hitting nature of clan Mechs in game is hard to deny but it just seems to me that any time they do anything people complain.

If an IS mech is quirked into being competitive everyone complains that it is too strong and needs to be nerfed but if a clan mech is nerfed people complain and say that the correct solution is to buff other Mechs (see beginning of sentence for how that goes over). I feel like there is no happy solution without people flipping out. IS stuff is heavier, does less damage, has less range, are hotter but "it needs balanced and things need to be even" but when that's an attempt the general feeling is "but not too even".

What is "fair" what is "balanced" for XL engines?
What penalty should there be for a clan losing its side torso?
What would make isXL acceptable?
Why is the added survivability of an STD add not part of the equation of speed, tankiness, firepower?
If clan Mechs dropped after losing a side torso would the only reason that would be "unfair" is because of the locked engine?
Is that "unfair" because an IS mech that has to take an XL to be viable still has the option to take a terrible option?
An IS mech has locked hard points, a clan Omni doesn't, does that not justify a locked engine and some other locked components?

I've been playing table top and the other mechwarrior games for a really long time so I'm just going to assume that my mind is too adjusted to how things are and have been to really understand where the complaints are coming from so I'm asking in all seriousness. I'm work in the mental health field and basically when I work with a client and I don't get where they are coming from I spend a lot of time trying to grasp where they are coming from before proceeding with any intervention or any attempt at help. Guess I'm trying the same thing here.....

[Carl Vickers]

TT had dice rolls to determine hit and hit location which equated to cone of fire.

MWO has instant convergence, being about to put 50 points in one location tends to hurt IS mechs with XL cause it isnt RNG deciding whether you go pop, just good aim.

Thats the main difference.

[MovinTarget]

Carl Vickers, on 21 January 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

TT had dice rolls to determine hit and hit location which equated to cone of fire.

MWO has instant convergence, being about to put 50 points in one location tends to hurt IS mechs with XL cause it isnt RNG deciding whether you go pop, just good aim.

Thats the main difference.

Hence my suggestion that torsi convergence has a slight delay... even a quarter of a second would be potentially enough to prevent easy poptart/trade convergence about 350m or so... if you are point blank perfect convergence isn't as important.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Carl Vickers, on 21 January 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

TT had dice rolls to determine hit and hit location which equated to cone of fire.

MWO has instant convergence, being about to put 50 points in one location tends to hurt IS mechs with XL cause it isnt RNG deciding whether you go pop, just good aim.

Thats the main difference.

Basically... coupled with the fact that Engine Crits do NOT exist just like Gyros do NOT exist. So cXL engines do not die as a result of "3 Engine Crits" yet is XL engines do. That is unfair

[Carl Vickers]

MovinTarget, on 21 January 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

Hence my suggestion that torsi convergence has a slight delay... even a quarter of a second would be potentially enough to prevent easy poptart/trade convergence about 350m or so... if you are point blank perfect convergence isn't as important.

Full respect Movin but I was responding to the post above me, not getting into a convergence chat, was letting him know why lore really doesnt work to well in a FPS which isnt rulled by 'da dice'

Edited by Carl Vickers, 21 January 2017 - 05:35 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Derp

Edited by Carl Vickers, 21 January 2017 - 05:39 PM.

[Weepy Wanebow]

Carl Vickers, on 21 January 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

TT had dice rolls to determine hit and hit location which equated to cone of fire.

MWO has instant convergence, being about to put 50 points in one location tends to hurt IS mechs with XL cause it isnt RNG deciding whether you go pop, just good aim.

Thats the main difference.

No...uhm yeah...I get that. I'm not sure how my giant list of question led to the assumption that I don't understand the difference between the dice roll and an instance pin point convergence high alpha damage.

If an isXLmech goes bye bye and a cXL mech runs so hot and slow that it may as well be dead.....how isn't that fair based on the differences between the engines? Couldn't they just balance it by making the loss of a ST a death on any mech rocking an XL? Why is that unfair? Wouldn't that really distinguish and set apart STD engines and XL engines?


At no point did I ask what the difference between tt and a video game is. Im sorry i gave the impression that i some how didnt understand that. My main point is that every one complains about balance but beyond one or two vague statements on the fact that they are different. I have yet to come across a logical or detailed, or even concise argument on what would provide "balance". If it is that the answer is that they should he the same, then should not all things be the same?

If all things are made the same then should the omni system go? Because with all things equal a mech that can change its hard points around still stands above all others that can't .....

Edited by Smell Da Glove, 21 January 2017 - 06:02 PM.

[SuperFunkTron]

John McHobo, on 21 January 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Ice Ferret:
It needs help.

What exactly do you have in mind? My ideas are much more global and I generally tend to accept mechs as they are without counting on nerfs or buffs until they exist.

[Edward Hazen]

Carl Vickers, on 21 January 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

TT had dice rolls to determine hit and hit location which equated to cone of fire.

MWO has instant convergence, being about to put 50 points in one location tends to hurt IS mechs with XL cause it isnt RNG deciding whether you go pop, just good aim.

Thats the main difference.

This is the real reason why people think that MWO is unbalanced. Mechs do not make sense in real life, because they are huge targets that would be easily overcome by heavy infantry or airpower. In MWO we can fire our weapons where we aim, which is the way it should be, I would quit this game in a heartbeat if the "add RNG" people get their way, because good builds and skillful aiming should be rewarded in a shooter game. I personally hate that mechs that were brutal in TT (like the Atlas) are lackluster at best in this game unless they are heavily quirked, but I really think that quirks and nerfs are a bad way to balance, because players should be forced to come up with better tactics and learn to play each mech to its strengths and weaknesses.

Finally, you can balance all you want but there will always be players or groups that are better than you.

Edited by S0ulReapr, 21 January 2017 - 06:04 PM.