98 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

I like this idea that i can put LGR on my urbie. But honestly i don't know if it's worth that much.

Based on my experience, which is subjective and is not the absolute correct viewpoint.

AC2 comes to mind, IMO it's best used 2+ more AC2s, one can put a lot of lead down range on demand as long as you can see enemies, and at long range it's not really an issue. Likewise, you can mass it, even if it's 4 damage at 12 tons, you can shoot every 0.72s that it does 5.555555555555556 DPS, compare that to AC10 of 4, and AC20 of 5, the only downside is that your damage would be spread, and the face time which is almost mitigated by the part that 720m is a massive range that is beyond most weapons, giving it so much breathing room. While facetime is still pretty bad, at 720m it's rather forgiving.

I suspect the same thing with LGR, though it deals 8 damage, but it weighs at 12 tons, that means it's not really something that you can apply the 2+ philosophy of the AC2 -- just get a bonafide GR for just +3 tons vs +12. Sure it has low range, but you don't have to worry about conversion and unlike 2 8-damage projectile, it's 1 15-damage projectile, 600m is already a powerful range to begin with.

If the trend of the GR-To-AC20, the LGR-to-AC10 would put the CD at 3.571428571428572s (+ 0.5357142857142858s charge time) which if compared with AC2 you "shoot" 2 damage shells every 0.8333333333s, 1.947826086956521 DPS vs 2.78 of that of a single AC2, and you can put moar. Sure you can ppfld 8 damage at one spot, sure it has higher range and projectile speed, but realistically AC2 is quite enough, realistically just get 2x AC2 vs 1 LGR for better DPS, and if you really want a high PPFLD weapon just use a bonafide GR with 15-PPFLD, at 660m and 2000m/s projectile speed which is already more than enough.

Further following the LGR-to-AC10 principle, the optimal range would have been at 962.4999999999998m and projectile speed of 2557.692307692307 m/s (adjusted to fit the 8 damage which is a 0.5 damage bonus and 12.87514t, so 87.49999999999998% less potency), which is just retardedly far with a projectile retardedly fast. I guess it would be interesting to see such an extremely long range weapon, but at only 8 PPFLD damage it's not that meaningful, AC2 works because you can mass it but not LGR, and you have no other weapon that weapon that would be able to properly complement the weapon like the lasers on Gauss Vomits. ER-PPC has 810m of effective range, but firing at 962.4999999999998m with the "niche" of the LGR, damage would have dropped at 8.415584415584417, likewise the slower projectile range makes the ppc hard to land and the bright projectile gives away your position, which is kind of bad -- then again it's the other way around with the GR to ER-PPC.

What i am getting at is that the LGR is quite a gimmick. I guess it could fit as the 12-ton, 8 damage, 1100m optimal range, 2923 m/s projectile speed, and 3.125 (+ 0.46875 charge time), and it will have a niche like no other, but it's just a niche. It's a really specialized weapon that it offers no significant advantage to justify it's use at most cases.

tl;dr
- AC2 works because it can be massed and shot quickly
- 720m is already far at most cases
- using the GR -> AC20, conceiving LGR -> AC10, range is at 962.4999999999998m, projectile speed of 2557.692307692307, CD at 3.571428571428572s (+ 0.5357142857142858s charge time), and 1.947826086956521 DPS.
- 720m is already far enough, 962.4998m is overkill, 8 damage isn't as meaningful likewise it can't be appended by most weapons, and 1.9478 dps is low, compared to the AC2 that you can actually mass.
- Due to the overspecialization of LGR, AC2 x2 would work better at most cases with the same tonnage and less crit slots.

Because of the 2x AC2 working better at most cases, i find it hard justifying putting an LGR on my mech, not with it's performance.

A tonnage drop to 11 tons would be quite nice, at least that 8 damage would be justified, even with just 720m of range, and 2400 m/s projectile speed.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 January 2017 - 03:39 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

8 damage for 12 tons? Sounds useless to me, it's like a clan gauss with half damage... why?

[Hit the Deck]

Duke Nedo, on 24 January 2017 - 03:20 AM, said:

8 damage for 12 tons? Sounds useless to me, it's like a clan gauss with half damage... why?

TBH its TT bare stats suck but in MWO we still have variables like cooldown time, projectile speed, and charge up time, for example, which can be adjusted to help a particular weapon fit its description.

If that doesn't help then we can also change the TT stats. But things like weight and slot requirements best to be left alone because adjusting them mess the TRO builds.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 24 January 2017 - 03:43 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

TBH its TT bare stats suck but in MWO we still have variables like cooldown time, projectile speed, and charge up time, for example, which can be adjusted to help a particular weapon fit its description.

Yeah.. but I just don't know... what role at that tonnage? It would need a pretty short CD to compete with AC2's for long range dps. Like max 1.5 secs or so... think I would see greater use for it if it had just been a baby gauss with like 10 damage for 10 tons and reduced range or something, then at least it would keep the same efficiency as a IS gauss but fit better on some mechs. But but but lore yada yada.

[The6thMessenger]

Duke Nedo, on 24 January 2017 - 03:53 AM, said:

Yeah.. but I just don't know... what role at that tonnage? It would need a pretty short CD to compete with AC2's for long range dps. Like max 1.5 secs or so... think I would see greater use for it if it had just been a baby gauss with like 10 damage for 10 tons and reduced range or something, then at least it would keep the same efficiency as a IS gauss but fit better on some mechs. But but but lore yada yada.

Maybe Ravens and Urbies can undertake that sniping role, but i'd rather take 2x AC2 for plink and better dps i guess.

[Tristan Winter]

Tarogato, on 24 January 2017 - 02:52 AM, said:

I was thinking of something like this:

Charge time:

• All gauss: 0.5s

Cooldown:

• Light: 3.0 seconds
  
• Standard: 5.0 seconds (present)
  
• Heavy: 7.0 seconds

Range:

• Light: 750-1500
  
• Standard: 660-1320
  
• Heavy: 180 (25 damage) - 390 (20 damage) - 600 (10 damage) - 780 (0 damage)

This is basically via translating the tabletop stats directly. Shouldn't really need to change anything, I think it works out pretty well. I also looked at damage per ton and DPS per ton, and it looked pretty fair. What do you think?

I'd like to see the standard gauss have longer max range, maybe longer range too, at the cost of longer cooldown. I'm sure TT enthusiasts will appreciate the direct translation of TT stats, but I still feel like this games need a proper sniping weapon in the sense of being very precise at long ranges (i.e. faster projectile speed than ERPPC), making the user somewhat hard to detect (i.e. not leaving a trail of light or lightning like energy weapons) and being relatively bad at close range (i.e. really low DPS compared to other ballistic weapons), while also doing a lot of damage per hit at long range (unlike light gauss or AC2).

I like the decrease in charge time.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 24 January 2017 - 05:17 AM.

[Tarogato]

Tristan Winter, on 24 January 2017 - 05:16 AM, said:

I'd like to see the standard gauss have longer max range, maybe longer range too, at the cost of longer cooldown. I'm sure TT enthusiasts will appreciate the direct translation of TT stats, but I still feel like this games need a proper sniping weapon in the sense of being very precise at long ranges (i.e. faster projectile speed than ERPPC), making the user somewhat hard to detect (i.e. not leaving a trail of light or lightning like energy weapons) and being relatively bad at close range (i.e. really low DPS compared to other ballistic weapons), while also doing a lot of damage per hit at long range (unlike light gauss or AC2).

I like the decrease in charge time.

If you made the current standard gauss rifle recycle any slower than it currently does, then it wouldn't get used. HelI, it already doesn't get used at all. The Clan gauss gets a lot of use, but the IS standard gauss isn't worth the tonnage or the explosiveness. I think the range is probably fine, but it should probably have a faster cooldown than 5.0 seconds (maybe 4.5), and more HP. While imo Clan gauss is probably fine now.

You see, you have to spec IS gauss for more DPS and less sniping, because IS mechs just can't put out enough damage with gauss at long range to compete with ERLL or clan-anything. So instead, don't worry about the gauss's's's range, just give it more deeps.

Edited by Tarogato, 24 January 2017 - 05:30 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Hows about it goes like this?

LGR: 1320m -> 2640m (2x), 3200 m/s, 3.25s CD + 0.5s charge time 2.13 DPS

GR: 660m -> 1980m (3x), 2000 m/s, 5.00s CD + 0.75s charge time, 2.61 DPS

HGR: 220m -> 1100m (4x), 1250 m/s, 6.75s CD + 1.00s charge time, 3.23 DPS

Yes, the LGR IMO can have a niche with extreme ranges. After all it's a sniping weapon, so it should capitalize on range first, and everything else second.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 January 2017 - 04:30 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

Tarogato, on 24 January 2017 - 05:28 AM, said:

If you made the current standard gauss rifle recycle any slower than it currently does, then it wouldn't get used. HelI, it already doesn't get used at all. The Clan gauss gets a lot of use, but the IS standard gauss isn't worth the tonnage or the explosiveness. I think the range is probably fine, but it should probably have a faster cooldown than 5.0 seconds (maybe 4.5), and more HP. While imo Clan gauss is probably fine now.
You see, you have to spec IS gauss for more DPS and less sniping, because IS mechs just can't put out enough damage with gauss at long range to compete with ERLL or clan-anything. So instead, don't worry about the gauss's's's range, just give it more deeps.

My main desire is to keep the gauss rifle as a sniper weapon (by the definition of really long range, lots of instant damage and hard to detect). The cooldown is just a way to make sure it's not OP or plain superior in every role. It gets complicated because the low heat effectively lets you increase DPS by having more energy / missile weapons together with the gauss, as opposed to having a hot AC20.

So if the IS Gauss rifle is on the verge of extinction, I'm fine with increasing range without changing cooldown.

On the other hand, I'm curious if IS gauss rifle is so rare because of other factors. If the IS had an assault mech like the Kodiak, with 4 really high ballistic mounts, or like the Night Gyr, with a combination of jump jets, relatively high arm mounts and great durability (as opposed to the Jagermech glass cannon), maybe things would be different? Maybe if the Dragon Slayer was great again, you'd see more IS gauss?

Why isn't the IS MAD gauss + 2ERPPC build as common as the MAD IIC counterpart, in your opinion?

[Hit the Deck]

The6thMessenger, on 24 January 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

...
GR: 660m -> 1980m (3x), 2000 m/s, 5.00s CD + 0.75s charge time, 2.61 DPS

HGR: 330m -> 1320m (4x), 1250 m/s, 6.75s CD + 1.00s charge time, 3.23 DPS
...

Using this, at 660m the HGR does 16.7pts of damage which is too big IMO (although it has smaller DPS). It should be lower than the GR's damage at that range.

Tarogato's chart seems to be better.

[Tarogato]

Tristan Winter, on 24 January 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

My main desire is to keep the gauss rifle as a sniper weapon (by the definition of really long range, lots of instant damage and hard to detect). The cooldown is just a way to make sure it's not OP or plain superior in every role. It gets complicated because the low heat effectively lets you increase DPS by having more energy / missile weapons together with the gauss, as opposed to having a hot AC20.

So if the IS Gauss rifle is on the verge of extinction, I'm fine with increasing range without changing cooldown.

But here's the thing: if you take the present gauss rifle, keep the cooldown at 5.0 seconds, and gave it literally infinite range...

... I still wouldn't use it. It wouldn't be worth it. It's a bad sniper weapon. It's too heavy, too fragile, and doesn't put out enough DPS to be worth all of the other downsides.

Quote

Why isn't the IS MAD gauss + 2ERPPC build as common as the MAD IIC counterpart, in your opinion?

A better comparison might not be the MAD-IIC, but the Timberwolf, because they're both 75 tons.

MAD-3R ------ 35 pinpoint no splash - 63 kph --- no JJs --- low mounts --- 4.14 dps
MAD-3R ------ 35 pinpoint no splash - 78 kph --- no JJs --- low mounts --- 4.34 dps
MAD-3R ------ 35 pinpoint no splash - 81 kph --- no JJs --- low mounts --- 3.88 dps
ON1-IIC-C -- 40 pinpoint + splash --- 70 kph --- no JJs --- low mounts --- 4.93 dps
TBR ----------- 35 pinpoint + splash --- 87 kph --- yes JJ --- low mounts --- 4.71 dps
NTG ---------- 40 pinpoint + splash --- 70 kph --- yes JJ --- high mounts --- 5.29 dps
MAD-IIC-A -- 50 pinpoint + splash --- 62 kph --- no JJs --- low mounts --- 5.29 dps


That's why gaussPPC is not popular for IS. Explosiveness and XL engines aside. The gauss is heavier, the PPC is heavier, the heatsinks are larger, and the PPCs don't splash. Therefore your mech runs much slower AND has less DPS.

Edited by Tarogato, 24 January 2017 - 08:11 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

This thing will have a charge up mechanism, it ever gets to the game, that's what I think of it

[Tristan Winter]

Tarogato, on 24 January 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

But here's the thing: if you take the present gauss rifle, keep the cooldown at 5.0 seconds, and gave it literally infinite range...
... I still wouldn't use it. It wouldn't be worth it. It's a bad sniper weapon. It's too heavy, too fragile, and doesn't put out enough DPS to be worth all of the other downsides.

I don't know if that's true for all good players, but even if it was, I think it's better to start by giving it the profile it should have (which is subjective and, in my opinion, would be as I described above) and then start to buff it within the parameters of that profile. Treat certain things as non-negotiable and then work your way up into viability.

TL;DR version of all my previous posts: I want gauss rifle to work well as a sniping weapon at ~800 meters. Everything else is secondary, for me. Cooldown, charge mechanic, crit chance, whatever. Just let me run dual gauss Jager and snipe people from long range without making myself look daft.

(And if PGI could please resurrect my good old dual gauss CTF-3D... well... I'd be happy about that too.)

Tarogato, on 24 January 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

A better comparison might not be the MAD-IIC, but the Timberwolf, because they're both 75 tons.
MAD-3R ------ 35 pinpoint no splash - 63 kph --- no JJs --- low mounts --- 4.14 dps
ON1-IIC-C -- 40 pinpoint + splash --- 70 kph --- no JJs --- low mounts --- 4.93 dps
TBR ----------- 35 pinpoint + splash --- 87 kph --- yes JJ --- low mounts --- 4.71 dps
NTG ---------- 40 pinpoint + splash --- 70 kph --- yes JJ --- high mounts --- 5.29 dps
MAD-IIC-A -- 50 pinpoint + splash --- 62 kph --- no JJs --- low mounts --- 5.29 dps
That's why gaussPPC is not popular for IS. Explosiveness and XL engines aside. The gauss is heavier, the PPC is heavier, the heatsinks are larger, and the PPCs don't splash. Therefore your mech runs much slower AND has less DPS.

I guess my point would be that you can't say "XL engines aside" because the only mech on that list without an XL engine is the MAD-3R. If there was an IS mech with really high-mounted ballistics and hitboxes that permitted the use of XL engines, or if the IS STD engine had positive qualities that compensated for the lack of speed, then that would help the issue.

[Tarogato]

Tristan Winter, on 24 January 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

I guess my point would be that you can't say "XL engines aside" because the only mech on that list without an XL engine is the MAD-3R. If there was an IS mech with really high-mounted ballistics and hitboxes that permitted the use of XL engines, or if the IS STD engine had positive qualities that compensated for the lack of speed, then that would help the issue.

The MAD-IIC and ON1-IIC both had STD engines.

Also, I went back and added XL versions of the MAD-3R. You can see they still fall short in DPS and speed compared to the Clan builds, and they still lack that extra juice from the cERPPC splash damage.

I'd be fine with giving IS gauss it's full range back the way it used to be, but I think it also needs more DPS (something like a 4.5s cooldown).

Edited by Tarogato, 24 January 2017 - 08:14 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

Tarogato, on 24 January 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

The MAD-IIC and ON1-IIC both had STD engines.

Also, I went back and added XL versions of the MAD-3R. You can see they still fall short in DPS and speed compared to the Clan builds, and they still lack that extra juice from the cERPPC splash damage.

I'd be fine with giving IS gauss it's full range back the way it used to be, but I think it also needs more DPS (something like a 4.5s cooldown).

I stand corrected. People other than me are actually using the dual gauss STD MAD IIC? I simply didn't click the link because I assumed that was just me being a potato.

I have seen Emp / 228 players using the ON1 IIC with STD and dual gauss though, so I shouldn't have assumed it was an XL build.

As for the IS gauss, I really would have no problem with any kind of buff, as long as it would have the range it used to, or even more range than it used to. I think PGI went too far nerfing the optimal range of the AC20 too, but that's a different story.

[GrimRiver]

Make Light Gauss:

No charge up.

Fires faster, slightly slower than AC5 but faster than AC10.

Weight between LB10X and AC20.

Same ammo per ton as AC10, maybe slightly less.

Takes 2 less crit slots than normal Gauss.

My 2 cents on it.

Edited by GrimRiver, 24 January 2017 - 11:05 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Here's my proposed stats:

Light Gauss Rifle (IS):
Mass: 12 tons
Slots: 5
Item health: 10
Explode on destruction: Yes
Explosion damage: 12
Charge to fire: disabled
Damage: 8
Cooldown: 3
DPS: 2.67
Heat: 1
Speed: 2300
Optimal range: 750 meters
Max range: 1500 meters
Ammo per ton: 32

This puts the LGR as a longer ranged and more accurate, but lower DPS alternative to the AC/10. If DPS is too low then lower the cooldown a bit, but it shouldn't be higher than the IS Gauss considering the lower weight and greater range.

[The6thMessenger]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2017 - 06:39 AM, said:

Using this, at 660m the HGR does 16.7pts of damage which is too big IMO (although it has smaller DPS). It should be lower than the GR's damage at that range. Tarogato's chart seems to be better.

I could just adjust the range profile from 330m -> 1650m, to 220m -> 1100m.

[Y E O N N E]

Tarogato, on 24 January 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

But here's the thing: if you take the present gauss rifle, keep the cooldown at 5.0 seconds, and gave it literally infinite range...

... I still wouldn't use it. It wouldn't be worth it. It's a bad sniper weapon. It's too heavy, too fragile, and doesn't put out enough DPS to be worth all of the other downsides.

Y'know, if the IS one didn't explode you'd probably see it taken a lot more. The fact that you can't combine it with isXL without accepting that you will die instantly on armor breach in the ST is a huge, huge disincentive.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 January 2017 - 05:45 PM, said:

Y'know, if the IS one didn't explode you'd probably see it taken a lot more. The fact that you can't combine it with isXL without accepting that you will die instantly on armor breach in the ST is a huge, huge disincentive.

To be clear though, that was still done on occasion on the Cataphract-3D when it was a thing. However, most people chose to put it on the arm for that reason alone, but that meant having to clear hills well enough.

Different times...