135 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 January 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

Using CASE to balance things like Gauss explosions and IS XL is a horrid idea and you should be ashamed for suggesting it.

Making CASE into CASEII (at the same cost) wouldn't be bad, though
Keep Clam Case the same, as it doesn't have a cost.


Not at the top of my preferred fixes, but it would be a nice touch

[MechaBattler]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

If you keep thinking like this, then some time in the future you will hit the wall like how to balance isENDO/FERRO with cENDO/FERRO.

It works for weapons but not for all. Engines can thankfully still be adjusted and I'm not opposed to the idea. Still, sometimes you can't balance 1 vs 1.

I believe balance in increments is best. Though considering they only patch the game once a month now. It might be a while. We don't need to change everything if a few core buffs is all it takes.

[Y E O N N E]

Mcgral18, on 24 January 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:

Making CASE into CASEII (at the same cost) wouldn't be bad, though
Keep Clam Case the same, as it doesn't have a cost.


Not at the top of my preferred fixes, but it would be a nice touch

Yeah, that would be nice, but more for making CASE useful rather than as a tool to make Gauss in an isXL ST useful. Yay tonnage taxes!

[Hit the Deck]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 January 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

Using CASE to balance things like Gauss explosions and IS XL is a horrid idea and you should be ashamed for suggesting it.

Ok, that doesn't help IS Gauss 'Mech vs Clan Gauss 'Mech.

I still haven't looked in detail which future equipment can give IS an edge (though with drawback) against the Clan but you get the idea.

[FupDup]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

I still haven't looked in detail which future equipment can give IS an edge (though with drawback) against the Clan but you get the idea.

There isn't one. Pretty much all IS future equipment is inferior to Clan equipment. Even 3142+ IS stuff is inferior to Clan invasion-era tech.

[Y E O N N E]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Ok, that doesn't help IS Gauss 'Mech vs Clan Gauss 'Mech.

I still haven't looked in detail which future equipment can give IS an edge (though with drawback) against the Clan but you get the idea.

Every other piece of IS gear is straight-up inferior to its Clan counterparts. The PPCs (including capacitor) all dance around the fact that they aren't cERPPCs. The ER lasers do less damage from shorter range (though this is the most easily mitigated in-game). The ballistics all weigh more; when the IS get Light ACs that let them finally compete against cUACs in certain scenarios, the Clans get ProtoMech ACs a few years later. AP Gauss does more damage than MagShot. HAGs are more easily mounted than the HGR, making it easier to carry one on a fast 'Mech and with better supporting equipment.

The closest IS come to getting an edge on the Clans is the Plasma Rifle, but the Clan Plasma Cannon is so light that you can just toss it onto a 'Mech and have more than enough tonnage to supplement it with ballistics.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 24 January 2017 - 06:02 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

FupDup, on 24 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

There isn't one. Pretty much all IS future equipment is inferior to Clan equipment. Even 3142+ IS stuff is inferior to Clan invasion-era tech.

Make some only accessible only to IS and prohibited for Clan like Laser Reflective Armor (bad example because it's an experimental tech).

Again, I haven't looked in detail but the idea is to give IS more stuff which some could be game changing and need to be used with thought.

Things like Stealth Armor (its fuction can be modified for MWO) which the Clan despises but can be used against them.

[Mcgral18]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

If you keep thinking like this, then some time in the future you will hit the wall like how to balance isENDO/FERRO with cENDO/FERRO.

Make isFF cost 4 slots, and it would suddenly be worth it

Make it save 40% armor points, and it would be (very much) worth it, and likely overtake Endo (100 tonners would save ~8 tons?)


Either cut them down to their relative performance with Clams, or make them better
As it stands, Clams take both without any issue, for the most part

[Revis Volek]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

Maybe in the future with the release of more 'Mechs, there could be more optimal builds which neccessitates the use of STD. This is the reason for engine choice and their relevancy.

What?

Did you not comprehend my statement? Its change the issue or continue with power creep and forget about things like STD engines and SHS.

Are you saying STD engines are not relevant in the game currently? For which side? Is or Clan?

There is no tech that will make the IS better or even on par with clans, it doesnt exist. Unless PGI is going to make some stuff up like weapons. Your comment has been said 1000 times before and no (how we wish but sadly no) there is nothing in timeline that will magically balance IS mechs to clan, that is literally the whole battletech story.

But if there is nothing, then lets go somewhere nowhere has gone before and change some fundamental stuff like the current way STD and XL engine work in the game.

Its the only logical thing they haven't done yet.

Edited by Revis Volek, 24 January 2017 - 06:10 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 January 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

Every other piece of IS gear is straight-up inferior to its Clan counterparts. The PPCs (including capacitor) all dance around the fact that they aren't cERPPCs. The ER lasers do less damage from shorter range (though this is the most easily mitigated in-game). The ballistics all weigh more; when the IS get Light ACs that let them finally compete against cUACs in certain scenarios, the Clans get ProtoMech ACs a few years later. AP Gauss does more damage than MagShot. HAGs are more easily mounted than the HGR, making it easier to carry one on a fast 'Mech and with better supporting equipment.

The closest IS come to getting an edge on the Clans is the Plasma Rifle, but the Clan Plasma Cannon is so light that you can just toss it onto a 'Mech and have more than enough tonnage to supplement it with ballistics.

Weapon values (and maybe things like PPC capacitor) usually will be adjusted so I'm not too worried.

Mcgral18, on 24 January 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

Make isFF cost 4 slots, and it would suddenly be worth it

Make it save 40% armor points, and it would be (very much) worth it, and likely overtake Endo (100 tonners would save ~8 tons?)

The first is taboo because it messes up the TRO builds.

The second one could work.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 24 January 2017 - 06:09 PM.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 January 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

The closest IS come to getting an edge on the Clans is the Plasma Rifle, but the Clan Plasma Cannon is so light that you can just toss it onto a 'Mech and have more than enough tonnage to supplement it with ballistics.

Well, if we look at these two weapons completely by themselves then you save 3 tons with the Clan Plasma Cannon. 3 tons won't be enough to supplement it with ballistics...other than MGs and AP Gauss I guess.

This is one of the few cases (maybe only case) where the weapons have legitimately different roles rather than Clan version being a one-up. Clan one is purely specialized against infantry (does literally zero damage to mechs for some odd reason) with better range, while the IS one can actually hurt mechs while still having a nice bonus against other targets.

[Y E O N N E]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

Weapon values (and maybe things like PPC capacitor) usually will be adjusted so I'm not too worried.

You aren't worried? They haven't even properly adjusted what we have now, what makes you think they'll do better with more stuff?

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 January 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

You aren't worried? They haven't even properly adjusted what we have now, what makes you think they'll do better with more stuff?

Well, some of the future stuff like the Light ACs are hard for PGI to mess up since they believe in uniformity for things like cooldown, heat, velocity, etc. across all ACs of the same size. I don't think PGI can handle the concept of a regular AC/5 and Light AC/5 NOT having identical velocity or whatever.

Edited by FupDup, 24 January 2017 - 06:12 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 24 January 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

Well, if we look at these two weapons completely by themselves then you save 3 tons with the Clan Plasma Cannon. 3 tons won't be enough to supplement it with ballistics...other than MGs and AP Gauss I guess.

This is one of the few cases (maybe only case) where the weapons have legitimately different roles rather than Clan version being a one-up. Clan one is purely specialized against infantry (does literally zero damage to mechs for some odd reason) with better range, while the IS one can actually hurt mechs while still having a nice bonus against other targets.

I'm not looking at a Clan 'Mech that's only got 6 tons, I'm looking at a 'Mech that's got 35 tons of pod-space to throw on, say 2x cUAC/10 and a single cPC. So that's a 40 double-tap coming your way and your heat is getting spiked at the same time so you can't return fire. When you look at the whole build, the result is almost identical to what you do with the isPR, but with different packaging. In this case, I'd say it's fairly well balanced since the IS is spending less weight per point of damage for a single shot, and with XL you can typically bring other supplemental weapons at only 6 tons a piece (+3 for ammo assuming 20 rounds/ton).

[Johnny Z]

Sjorpha, on 24 January 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

You balance the heavier and larger IS equipment by making it more powerful than the lighter and smaller clan equipment. Ideally also with interesting mechanical differences.

If everything is actually worth the tonnage and crits it costs, then you won't need the engines to account for that.

I think the best current example is the IS LPL vs the Clan LPL. They both have upsides, but the IS LPL is the more powerful weapon for a number of reasons, if clanners could mount it on their mechs they actually would! It's worth the extra crit and ton.

Most other weapons don't accomplish this, so there is a lot of work to do, but the LPLs are a good model for the whole laser family, you can start by extrapolating the reasons why IS LPL is so good to the other IS lasers to make them competitive.

Autocannons already have interesting differences that can be tweaked. The IS pinpoint can be amplified with increased accuracy, and the Clan UACs can get more bullets in a stream if needed.

The largest challenge are equipment where clan tech is a strict upgrade, in the sense that there is no IS upside to tweak. These include the gauss rifles, where I'd suggest simply giving IS gauss the 3x range back, PPCs, where I thing IS should get heat and velocity advantage vs the clan splash damage, and DHS where I thing the IS DHS should simply be a little better. And so on.

Good points but quirks have taken care of most of these imbalances. Same with the heat sink imbalance and the rest, has been mostly done. Its the engines that are the biggest factor now.

The LFE will help, same with some other ideas. This isn't a big thing and lore and faction character can be maintained.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 January 2017 - 06:19 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Revis Volek, on 24 January 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

What?

Did you not comprehend my statement? Its change the issue or continue with power creep and forget about things like STD engines and SHS.

Are you saying STD engines are not relevant in the game currently? For which side? Is or Clan?
....

You said that LFE will make STD less relevant (paraphrasing, don't exactly remember what you said) which is true.

Give IS Heavy Gauss Rifles to make STD necessary when you want to use the weapon. Of course, the HGR itself must not suck.

Yeonne Greene, on 24 January 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

You aren't worried? They haven't even properly adjusted what we have now, what makes you think they'll do better with more stuff?

Nothing.

PGI's (in)ability to balance is not a factor (in this discussion). It's just that adjusting weapon value is pretty much an acceptable solution and you can keep the TT stats while you're at it as a bonus.

[Y E O N N E]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

Nothing.

PGI's (in)ability to balance is not a factor (in this discussion). It's just that adjusting weapon value is pretty much an acceptable solution and you can keep the TT stats while you're at it as a bonus.

PGI's ability to balance shouldn't be a factor, and we'd actually have a great game if it wasn't because there's already plenty in the game to make IS compete with Clans by just adjusting equipment values, but the unfortunate reality is that when new IS weapons drop, you'll probably see an embarrassing display of inability when isERML generate 5 heat and have a burn duration of 1.00+ seconds, X-Pulse that actually cap out at standard Laser range, 9-ton Heavy PPCs that have their damage split off into splash, etc. And then to exacerbate it, the new Clan gear is going to nullify any progress made on the IS side.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 24 January 2017 - 06:23 PM.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 January 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

...9-ton Heavy PPCs...

10 tons, actually.

[Mcgral18]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

The first is taboo because it messes up the TRO builds.

The second one could work.

Being under tonnage/under slots is no issue

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 24 January 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

10 tons, actually.

Sucks to suuuuuuuuuuuck.