181 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2017 - 08:10 PM, said:

I don't think we need x4 internals; all you'd accomplish by universally buffing health is encouraging DPS and brawl builds because alpha builds can't deal enough damage to handle any sort of push.

perhaps just x3 then, just enough to where Equipment Health becomes a Factor,
as it is unless you are running MGs its hard to actually lose a piece of Equipment before the component,

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 January 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

perhaps just x3 then, just enough to where Equipment Health becomes a Factor,
as it is unless you are running MGs its hard to actually lose a piece of Equipment before the component,

See, I don't really care for the crit component of the game. I'd much rather we just saw whole sides off; the crit mechanic just provides rewards disproportionate to the amount of effort put in when it happens and provides absolutely nothing otherwise. All in the name of making the game feel more "sim", which it doesn't. If we wanted this game to feel sim, we'd introduce power management, angles of attack, ammo types, proper heatsink behavior in vacuum, etc. Having your stuff randomly destroyed because some scrub managed to graze you a few times in one area is just...empty.

[xe N on]

Imho it is a combination of all that makes especially clan battle mechs potentially much stronger than IS mechs.

I can compare my HBK-IIC-A directly to my GRF-1E. Both are pure energy mechs with around the same amount of hardpoints. However, in any weapon combination my HBK-IIC-A feels superior to my GRF-1E though latter is even 5 ton heavier and does come with some nice energy quirks.

Edited by xe N on, 27 January 2017 - 01:53 PM.

[Van Tuz]

My opinion is that 1 to 1 balance of IS vs Clan is impossible. Therefore it should be dropped as a concept and moved towards IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan or asymmetrical IS vs Clan balance.
What's the main problem? Everything.
IS 100ton assault mech with STD +endo (no FF because most likely you won't have crit slots) with max armor have 35 tons to work with.
Clan 100 ton mech with CXL of the same rating +endo + FF have 50 ton free to put better weapons and compensate increased heat with more heatsinks.
YOU CAN'T STRUCTURE QUIRK THAT CRAP. JUST CAN'T.
And that's just raw numbers applicable to EVERY mech. You can't "compensate" that trough hitboxes or hardpoint locations because 1) It's mech specific so it can't help the balance in general and 2) Clan mechs may have better hitboxes and hardpoint locations too. On top of extra 15 ton of free weight.

LFE won't help. It'll half-solve the engine but not endo+FF+better weapons.

Edited by Van Tuz, 28 January 2017 - 07:07 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 January 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

• Balance is Good Right now?
  
• Engines Balance(STD/XL/C-XL)?
  
• Upgrade Balance(Endo/Ferro)?
  
• Heat Sink Balance?(SH/DHS/C-DHS)
  
• Weapon Stats Balance(Dam/Cycle/Crit/Ton)?

I don't see how you can choose like that, the interesting value is total average contribution each mech has to the chances of winning.

All of the tech needs to be balanced for that to be achieved.

Edited by Sjorpha, 28 January 2017 - 07:10 AM.

[East Indy]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

Shockingly, I think weapon stats are a bigger deal than engines. Even in the game we have nkw, ebgines can be somewhat mitigated with weapon selection and piloting ability. Nothing can save you from being unable able to engage at the same distances with comparable firepower or pack that giant, light-weight, high-DPS small laser spam.

Naturally, though, there is a feedback loop.

Much agreed. Sure, there's the new 40% reduction, but you need to actually shoot through a torso first.

Clan weapons have no fewer than four advantages: tonnage, compactness, range and damage efficiency. The idea in tabletop was to throw half-civilized warmongers against a small number of honorable battle-lords with powerful technology. A more generalized game like MWO, of course, isn't designed for that.

PGI mitigated some of this through numbers and mechanics but the differences are still big when quirks are removed. There's literally no reason for Clan autocannons or Streaks to enjoy longer ranges other than tabletop deference. But it's in the game, and Inner Sphere 'Mechs have a bunch of quirks to indirectly compensate, which skews balance in other ways, and has PGI chasing its tail much of the time.

Similar issue with ER lasers and Clan lasers: 50% additional range is tabletop, and utterly overpowered for a 1-to-1 PvP game, yet for almost 3 years PGI has tried too-clever-by-half nips and tucks. Seriously, 10% extra range and correspondingly adjusted heat and beam duration, and you're good. It's still an interesting choice between normal lasers, and Clans still enjoy tonnage and compactness advantages for most items. And now you have variables that you can actually control for balance analytics — not to mention a narrower gap to cover with quirks.

[Andi Nagasia]

im still a proponent of giving all Clan Lasers -1 Damage @ -1 Heat and test from there,

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 January 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

im still a proponent of giving all Clan Lasers -1 Damage @ -1 Heat and test from there,

And I'll tell you again what I said last time:

When you look at the fully built 'Mech, what you end up with is more damage for the heat than you have now on the laser-vomit 'Mechs that are causing problems for balance while everybody else gets screwed over relative to them (congrats, you've nerfed my laser Mist Lynx!).

[Hit the Deck]

Van Tuz, on 28 January 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

My opinion is that 1 to 1 balance of IS vs Clan is impossible. Therefore it should be dropped as a concept and moved towards IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan or asymmetrical IS vs Clan balance.
...

In another first person BT game perhaps.

Don't put MechWarrior name on it since MW games already have their own distinct feel. I feel spawning in a "match" (or maybe there's no match, just continuous battles on persistent battlefields) should be introduced in that hypothetical game as IS 'Mechs will suffer more death. On the IS side, you'll change 'Mechs more frequently because of that fact.

[Tiantara]

- As for me - Engine balance. Even not engine by itself as penalty for IS XL.
Because the big problem is weak point that makes all buffs to armor useless in unskilled pilot hands and overpowered in hand of pro. I can explain what I mean.

1. All armor\structure buffs to IS mech just to make them live longer under superior firepower of Clan mech. Not a surprise that many light\medium mech of Clan have 2x or 3x more fire power than IS mech. From heavy and assault mech situation a bit better, but anyway. In hand of new player or players who play for fun, buy mech for real money and spend not many time in game but always under premium time, and with preordered mech - mech with possibility to be killed by one shot... well... not good. Anyone remember that glorious time when snipers with single gauss have ability to "oneshot" any mech in head? Not good right? That's why we don't have it now and many cockpit of mech not so easy to shot... So, some weak "lore based" weak point's can be removed as well as fixed hitboxes on each mech.

So, in hand of good gamer armor buffs make mech overpowered because of torso-twisting, damage spreading and using fast engines as well. But they still have weak point as any mech - center and side torsos back (with 2-16 points armor). If you skilled enough and your team play smart - not a problem to kill enemy in back or outmaneuver it. As well as make precise shot from bigger distance or use spotter help to kill tough target. That the main core of game.
That's why quirks balance will be endless because that not Clan vs IS balance... it's try to balance overarmored IS vs IS as they should be.

2. Now to new pilots and to those who play but have no great team or play in random... They have extreme 4 weak points on IS mech with XL engine. Possibility to die after side torso destruction and 100% chance to die from damage placed to back. yeah... even 16 armor in back for side torso nothing. Sometimes I got friendly fire to back and die. Not good. So all those who spend c-bills to by XL engine discover that their mech become... worse. Because they make mech = glass and have no skill to operate it. And in same time they see Clan mech which not suffer that much and using them much easier and enjoyable. As result we see overpopulated Clan side. Cool... After which we got tonnage rebalancing and even -40% to heatmanagement for Clan mech.

When mech have exposed weak point - everyone who know where it is, will use it against. Simply as is. Fast moving IS mech - side torso check from bigger distance or LRM shover easy kill it. Well played team focus such mech and take off from the game easy. Before they get in position or range.
In same time XL IS mech have less weapon (by firepower) even less than when they have STD. That also make Clan better choice for player... and... what will force them to take IS mech and suffer? Not so many players really love play hardcore, and taking IS side - is taking pure hardcore. And no Clan mech skill helps to play on IS mech at all.
So we see...
- Old time players who good on IS mech and use them great. Any buffs to mech in their case can possibly become overpower. They can be good on any mech, because they pro and know mech more than enough.
- Medium skilled players, which with new players have much bigger mass in game and suffer from weak mech points more often. They easy target, they dies fast, they choose mech which live longer and do everything to make mech armored enough to play longer. The key point there - longer! Have more fun from piloting mech and fighting. Not die in game start and have no ability to start another FP because mech in game or jump from QP to QP make team suffer from 9 vs 12 or 8 vs 12 at first two min of game.


3. On forum I hear ides about some "protection" for ST XL engine for IS mech. Nice idea, but impossible when whole ST fell apart. Even Clan gamers agree that there no fun to easy kill target without sharpening pilot skill. IS XL now cause of short games and bad impression for new players or those who will try some "old" mech or different builds. That "death penalty" force to take only good mech (what in same time force to nerf them or change quirks). I take a slant at engine\mech quirks and most of them placed only to make higher chance to mech survive. And that works when we have IS vs IS battles. Now - not.
Because IS vs IS have nearly same firepower and battle was based on Fast and Glass vs Slow and Armored. With same range, firepower...
IS vs Clan - different thing. Even before we have empty queue IS vs Clan when clan got new toy or IS have new quirks. That why we have shorter gauss range now. Shorter Clan LPL... bigger coodown of PPC and heat for any AC, to make KDK-3 hotter. But still we have biggest issue - fragile as tincan IS mech with XL.
Even if IS survive under fire before gets in position, they have not enough firepower to take down Clan mech. I can easy name many IS mech which have less than 30 firepower on heavy mech and even assault. When Clan can freely use even insane 80 without problem. Yeaahhhh changing heatmanagement to -40% after side torso kill for Clan force pilot to make a bit less hot builds with a lower firepower... But that still not helping new players and those who stuck in tier 4-2.
Balancing mech only by tier 1 experience not good! Better make restriction rules for pro gamers based on lore or some king of championship forbidden builds, if you want make game hardcored for pro gamers, veterans and any true lore based rules!

4. So... main goal change death penalty of IS XL engine to -80% of speed (as if they loose one leg), review heatsinks mechanic for light mech (because they become hotter with XL engine which take 6 slots from side torso and still need another 3-4 DHS to make mech available to play! Maybe better make DHS slots inside engine only for light mech and allow them have better weapon to fight with Clan?). Even that can make balance between Clan and IS better and force players to try another mech, builds... and game style aside of 1-3 good models and "death ball" strategy. Make them use real teamwork, not endless fear to be killed to ST.

5. What keeps engines balanced:
- STD engine great choice for any mech with must have constant speed even after side torso loose. Longrange builds can be placed in that category.
- STD best for any zombie mech, with CT weapons. So they not save speed but also can fight back.
- STD great choice for those IIC Clan mech which don't want loose speed and heatmanagement also.

- Clan XL with old heat and speed loss after side torso loss good as they as. Speed, long range, great firepower make them tough enemy and that cool.

- IS XL without death penalty and with -50-80% speed penalty - better choice for players who want more speed and sometimes less firepower. New players can fight back a bit longer. Skilled pilots make games longer and interesting for Clan pilots. Many mech with XL builds become useful again. Low firepower mech can outmaneuver Clan or at least compete with them.
Light become slow after ST hit but can still distract enemy Clan. Medium mech take its role as assault guards. Heavy and Assault mech have less weapon (if put XL ) or become slower (as urbanmech with STD 60... or even slower), what makes team play smart and use them as support (protect from death) or as decoy (as they can still fire). That change situation in game... Longer live IS same as make 10 clan vs 12 IS.
- Better teamwork where mech with different builds don't count as ballast at the start. Like - you to slow or too fragile to play. And we'll see less teamkill as well.
- Better strategy - have constant speed or become reeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallyyyyy slow and take help from teammates.
- Better choice of playstile - eliminate such thing as "focused ST shooting from great distances"
- Make longer battles without any additional weapon balancing or adding quirks\armors.
- Let players choose mech not by ability survive and play - but by their model and other preferences. Also - bring to live such great things as Mastering Pack with such great looking mech as Dragon, Kintaro, Commando, Victor, Orion!
- Make more pilot friendly trial and champion mech. Because if nearly all IS mech looks bad - player wont play in game and we have less population for FP matches and private lobby and even quick games.

Right now using IS XL gives only speed, because any Clan mech faster up to 18-30kph. Only speed. No bigger firepower (sometimes even less firepower than mech can hold), no better heatmanagement (sometimes heatmanagament even worse - like 1.18 instead of 1.29). Maybe a bit better turning moves - but that also no use if you got hits from both sides in same time.
For all that you got fragile mech with death penalty.
One again - that was really good when STD and XL mech have nearly same firepower as it was IS vs IS conflict. Now, when nearly all enemy mech not faster, but have bigger firepower because of plenty hardpoints and flexible builds - IS XL weakest point. It's not important in QP because there mixed mech, but in FP make really strange fluctuation in balance. Not well skilled pilots die fast and what left - can't battle with Clan, what make game shorter and less fun.

Edited by Tiantara, 29 January 2017 - 10:00 PM.

[Tiantara]

Balance is Good Right now?

- After forcing take battle only IS vs Clan - no. Quick game is a tech-mix in team and players play by choosing different mech in team. There you can see nice forge from best mech from each side what make suggestion about game incorrect. IN FP we have many good things for Clan mech and less rewards for using IS XL. And shorter battle. I know situation when players go away when 1\3 of team dead because it useless to play further. And many rage quit and teamkill if someone don't know how to play XL mech or take STD when all play "nascar"


Engines Balance(STD/XL/C-XL)?

- Definitely yes! IS XL engine weakest point in balance from day when we have only IS vs Clan battles in FP. XL is the issue which forcing add buffs to armor, structure and weapon... but in unskilled pilots that mech always die fast with nearly intact body and weapon - just after 1-2 focused shot from enemy side. Po gamer even on mech without armor play good. Make all mech bad because 10-100 gamers can use them super effective not a answer to balance. Make all mech good but in specialized situation with some role - better. So time to take off glass engine comes. Or we need back IS vs IS wars... So - changing engines on first place of balancing sides.

Upgrade Balance(Endo/Ferro)?

- No. Some really bulky mech with not good geometry need some buffs but not based on needs to protect XL engine. Shielding arms must have some supports. Long legs better armor. But right now we have nice balance in upgrades. Anyway all IS mech choose Endo (all from light to assault) and ferro (light and some medium) as well as DHS as soon as player have enough c-bills. Without them mech useless in most times.
And all they make firepower of mech less than they can have.


Heat Sink Balance?(SH/DHS/C-DHS)
- There some issue with DHS for light mech and some medium for IS. I mean 2-3 DHS which need for mech to make it available for play. Why mech with heatmanagement higher than 0.90 must have at least 2-3 DHS? Why take off place from weapon or any useful components? Because of that some IS mech have firepower less than 10 and nothing useful for tactic play like - narc, tag or bap!

Weapon Stats Balance(Dam/Cycle/Crit/Ton)?
- At present day weapon balanced. I can suggest to change PPC mechanic to splash damage where core damage lower than we have now and compensated by divided damage to splash. Like - PPC - 6 core damage + 1,5+1,5 splash damage. ERPPC - 8 core damage and 1 + 1 splash damage C-ERPPC - 7 core damage and 2 + 2 splash damage. Make that weapon armor burning gun, not precise like Gauss... I wrote that right after PTS when we have trouble with pop-tarting mechs. Some other weapon also can be changed a little like - change optimal range not with all range. But right now weapon pretty balanced even if force some players choose boating or 2 types of weapon only.

[PhoenixFire55]

*If* they are making "A BattleTech Game" like the game title seems to say then Clan/IS balance should be achieved by greater number of cheaper/weaker IS mechs balancing fewer number of stronger/expensive Clan mechs. That is BT, which was always assymetric. Everything else is idiotic bandaiding and not only breaks the game but also removes all flavour and diversity from it.

[Tiantara]

- "Cheap" IS mech - sounds really funny... Most of mech even more expensive than Clan at the end... And I don't mention bundles... even c-bill mech expensive enough.

[PhoenixFire55]

Tiantara, on 30 January 2017 - 02:48 AM, said:

- "Cheap" IS mech - sounds really funny... Most of mech even more expensive than Clan at the end... And I don't mention bundles... even c-bill mech expensive enough.

IS mechs aren't "cheap" in MWO because you dump all those c-bills into them to make them better than they are in stock. Now look at the actual c-bill purchase prices. You can get an IS assaults easily in just under 10m c-bills, while a clan one costs up to 25m. Those are the prices for stock builds, and stock builds are the only ones used in BT. Thats the way BT does the balancing. For every DireWolf clanners bring an IS will have 2.5 Atlases on the field. Actually more still because of BattleValue.

I'm not saying that we should get rid of mech customization, but a mech with a stock build should be treated differently from a fully customized mech in terms of MM. Same way a mech with "bad" weapons should be treated differently from a mech with "good" weapons. BattleValue isn't perfect but it works really well considering it balances a completely OP BT true clan tech vs utter trash IS stocks.

[Tiantara]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 03:03 AM, said:

IS mechs aren't "cheap" in MWO because you dump all those c-bills into them to make them better than they are in stock.

- Right, because 80% of them useless without Endo\DHS upgrade or even Ferro, if we talking about light and medium IS mech. I never use stock mech because it was pretty useless (especially with single heatsinks) when no Clan mech was like this in game. After few try in Private Lobby - never use them again unless some lore based event come.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 03:03 AM, said:

Now look at the actual c-bill purchase prices. You can get an IS assaults easily in just under 10m c-bills, while a clan one costs up to 25m. Those are the prices for stock builds, and stock builds are the only ones used in BT. Thats the way BT does the balancing. For every DireWolf clanners bring an IS will have 2.5 Atlases on the field. Actually more still because of BattleValue.

- Balancing what? Most expensive clan mech = about 18m. Nice. Some tweaks and it cool, but some models great without any tweaking. Now we take lore based IS mech... well... Not a single stock mech can be compared in duel IS vs Clan unless they have 30t difference... and even then IS mech on XL with toothpick as weapon (20damage firepower) quite not compared with same speed mech with... what? 62damage firepower stock? And all that model based on 3 type range weapon and easy breaks into 2-3 groups to fire. Maybe in TT all that balanced by dice - but here we have accuracy of pilot shooting skill and piloting!
In that case we need battle like 18 is mech vs 12 clan. Or 12 vs 8.
And who will play in that mode if in team of 8 mech 1\3 will be novice pilots who don't understand why they must fight against bigger group.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 03:03 AM, said:

I'm not saying that we should get rid of mech customization, but a mech with a stock build should be treated differently from a fully customized mech in terms of MM. Same way a mech with "bad" weapons should be treated differently from a mech with "good" weapons. BattleValue isn't perfect but it works really well considering it balances a completely OP BT true clan tech vs utter trash IS stocks.

- No one plays stock builds as soon as have enough c-bill. And all new players have great boost for it as well as some premium time to collect enough c-bills sooner or later. We need get rid of weak point which ruin balance between Clan and IS. By implementing LFE engines or by replacing death penalty by -50\80% of speed after side torso killed. Or bring back possibility to fight IS against IS in FP as it was before to have ability to play balanced match. I vote for changing death penalty to something else... because quirks change nearly depleted. Weapon nice balanced right now and will be balanced even better if result of Energy Draw from PTS will be implemented in game. Playing with armor not helping at all because mech still have weak side torso and even with armor buffs die nearly whole after 2-3 lucky alpha shots.
There is no bad weapon or good weapon. Each nice in each situation. But any armor and weapons useless if mech can be killed by taking off side torso. It wasn't problem when battle against same faction... It become problem only now - when we get strictly IS vs Clan Faction Play.

And all that changes which was based on only tier 1 experience. Main population of game - tier 4-2. Any mech in hands of pro gamer can be really scary thing, but no need nerf it because 100 gamer can use it too well - just make lore restriction based on tier and let all other use freely mech as they want.
Or we get something like - "play as pro or go away".

Once again - taking off death penalty wont affect quick games, but make play longer in FP as it is now. An the longer battle is the faster pilot learn how to play and which build make. Ans sooner become better tier and fill population of high tier. Simply as is. All we need - change death penalty to high speed penalty.
- Novice player would live a bit longer and fight a bit longer as well as learn how to spread damage and shield core. Anyway, they soon loose second side torso and die anyway but have more fun from game and play more.
- Pro gamer also live a bit longer or become slow target after lucky shot. Also he can provide some fire support until he die make battle IS vs Clan a bit balanced. Because right now they eject from damaged mech to take another only because they die after 1 shot in red ST anyway.

Edited by Tiantara, 30 January 2017 - 04:01 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Tiantara, on 30 January 2017 - 03:57 AM, said:

stuff

Spent soo much time to type your reply but didn't bother to spend two minutes to actually read what you are replying to, thus entirely missing the point of it.

[Tiantara]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 04:03 AM, said:

Spent soo much time to type your reply but didn't bother to spend two minutes to actually read what you are replying to, thus entirely missing the point of it.

- Its about mech cost have nothing with balance because full customized IS mech still much weaker than Clan mech because of "glass effect" of XL engine. That what I mean. There no talk about stock mech in FP or in game. Its about balance between full upgraded mech from both side and what XL mech become not better but weaker. It sad to have weak teammates who die only because of engine old mechanic placed in game only because of lore and lore only. Also as have weak opponents when all game is - "find weak mech and rip his side torso".
And yes... comparing stock builds we need 3 is mech for each clan one... but why mention stock builds if they was useful only 4 years ago?

Edited by Tiantara, 30 January 2017 - 04:23 AM.

[The Lighthouse]

Hardpoint is NOT a IS vs Clan issue. It is an issue coming from the mech itself.

You don't have to look further to see Clan mechs with horrid hardpoints/location, such as Summoner, Kitfox, Orion IIC, etc.

Hardpoint is indeed an issue, but it has to be done by mech by mech basis, not a IS vs Clan basis.

[PhoenixFire55]

Tiantara, on 30 January 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

- Its about mech cost have nothing with balance because full customized IS mech still much weaker than Clan mech because of "glass effect" of XL engine. That what I mean. There no talk about stock mech in FP or in game. Its about balance between full upgraded mech from both side and what XL mech become not better but weaker.

Sigh. Entirely missing the point still. Try to think outside of your narrowminded clans-OP-plz-nerf pattern for a change ...

It is not about cost, nor is it about some mechs being better than other mechs. It is about that (one mech being better than the other) being perfectly fine, and about balancing the game differently. It doesn't matter how good your clan mech is because it has a finite value of "good" in it. For each "good" clan mech IS will bring the same amount of "good" on their side, be it one, or two, or ten mechs if necessary. This balancing is a proper one and benefits the overall gameplay greatly. For example you won't be hindering your team anymore when you bring a mech like say Vindicator, because instead of being matched by a top-tier clan medium on the other side you'll be matched with a clan equivalent of a Vindicator (a MystLynx for example). You will be able to bring "bad" mechs and "bad" loadouts and still have balanced matches etc. This is proper because it creates diversity, completely different tactics based on completely different number of mechs on both sides and is more fun in general.

But of course that'll make all mechs suddenly viable and PGI won't be able to switch meta on a whim in order to sell another mechpak, so it'll never happen.

[The Lighthouse]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

But of course that'll make all mechs suddenly viable and PGI won't be able to switch meta on a whim in order to sell another mechpak, so it'll never happen.

PGI does not have to make mechs not viable to sell mechpack. If that was the case, business model like Dota 2 would had been total failure. I suspect it actually brings opposite effect : by making currently owned mechs not viable, it made a lot of old players to be pissed off and left the game, shrinking the playerbase (which causes matchmaking issue, and the vicious circle begins.)

People naturally buy mechpacks because they want to play new things, not because they are competitively viable (i.e see Bushwacker.)